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| Thread: The American Civil War |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 17, 2013 04:26 PM |
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All I'm saying is that in my opinion Abe, who was a good man and good president who wanted to preserve the Union and all, is not the only one who would've issued the proclamation. Basically he's praised for leading the US through the war, but I think that he was not the only one capable.
Lee is, like you said, a class act. He didn't want to fight against the Union but he couldn't fight against his home state either, and he was a great man from what I've read and a great general.
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artu
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posted April 17, 2013 04:41 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:42, 17 Apr 2013.
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Looks like "all you're saying" changes with every single post, you shouldn't make big fancy claims if you don't have the knowledge.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 17, 2013 04:42 PM |
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Look man, I never said Lincoln was bad and then retorted so I don't see your point.
Also, why do you keep saying anything so that it contradicts my opinion? 
Sorry I'm only a highschool student and not even american, I regret I don't have a PhD or something 
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artu
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posted April 17, 2013 04:54 PM |
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Well, kind of my point, you just made this high-schoolish stance of "South is cool man, Robert Lee kicks ass bro" and when people handled the subject in a more mature manner, you turned into a defensive manner of saying stuff like "all I'm saying is South isn't the devil" which nobody with a slightest sense of historical perspective proclaims anyway.
I only suggested not to take that high-schoolish stance in the first place. Think of it as free advice to grow up faster. 
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 17, 2013 04:58 PM |
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Robert E Lee still kicks ass, the only military man that I can really respect. I never changed my stance on that. And the South still is cool for being patriotic, but obviously not for slavery.
Believe me, most people my age don't even know about the Civil War (I'm talking about romanians) or don't care, oh and there are some who think south was the devil, but I think they're mainly internet trolls or just people with too much time on their hands looking to start a flame war.
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MightyMage
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posted May 28, 2013 05:14 PM |
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The American Civil War is an especially dear subject to me for several reasons.
1. I'm American so yeah. There's that.
2. I LOVE history in general and can't get enough knowledge of it.
3. Having been a member of the U.S. Military, war history was looked at quite often for tactical lessons.
4. I was a member of the Signal Corps. which was formed during the Civil War.
I've heard the State's Rights argument for as long as I can remember and I'll sum it up like this:
Several southern plantation owners wanted the right to own slaves and also felt that because these slaves were their property, they could move to a northern state if they wished and continue to own their slaves. In essence it was an economical war centered on the right to own slaves. These cotton plantations had become so dependent on slave labor that they were willing to do whatever was necessary to keep them. However, the majority of confederate soldiers did not come from slave owning households. It was not a volunteer army. It was a draft. There were plenty who tried to go AWOL but when they were caught, they were hung. In fact the entire garrison in Texas was surrendered in February 1861 to state forces by its commanding general. These were US Troops who were suddenly told one day, "Congrats, you fight for the south now. Here's your new uniforms. See ya at 0500 tomorrow."
For motivational purposes, they were told whatever would help them carry that rifle onto the battlefield. The North is infringing on our rights. They're trying to change the southern way of living. The fact is for most of them, they just happened to live in a confederate state.
No one in this war should be considered inherently evil save for maybe the greedy plantation owners and a few of the Northern politicians.
The CSA inadvertently started the war. They seceded from the Union... or at least said they did, and began claiming several forts and other properties as belonging to the CSA
President Lincoln and the rest of the Senate and Congress agreed this move was illegal. The North never once recognized the Confederacy as a separate nation or its own government. They were rebels in the eyes of the Union. In fact, during (I believe) the first three years of the war, President Lincoln was willing to do whatever was necessary including a failed peace conference to re-unite the North and South.
So yes, the complete abolishment of slavery by the Lincoln Administration only became a war time goal just before his second term in office. However, no matter how you put it or what type of "state's rights" argument you attempt, the cause of the American Civil War was an issue of slavery.
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The_Gootch
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posted May 28, 2013 07:33 PM |
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Quote:
Robert E Lee still kicks ass, the only military man that I can really respect.
The ghosts of Gettysburg might want to talk with you about that one. One mile forced march over open fields with the enemy having solidified the high ground. Bad move.
Let me point you in the direction of a general I admire. He knew how to deal with those rebels; went by the name of William Tecumseh Sherman.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted June 04, 2013 10:27 AM |
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Fan art :P
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markkur
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posted June 04, 2013 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
The ghosts of Gettysburg might want to talk with you about that one. One mile forced march over open fields with the enemy having solidified the high ground. Bad move.
No doubt about that; the movie Gettysburg accurately portrayed the Historical accounts of the battle and one of them was that Lee was devastated by the failure and loss of life and rode out among the men apologizing; "It's my fault men". <imo> That's is another reason why he was a "soldier's General" much like Patton's pal; General Omar Bradley. I can't think of another historical account of a General doing what Lee did after the mistake of Pickett's charge.
I will never know the truth of Lee's decision and reasons why he did not listen to Longstreet's plan of a flanking move but there are some Historians that think Lee was ill at the time of the battle. (possibly a heart-attack) That could be fan-sentiment but I don't think so.
Lee did a lot more trusting and less clear commanding before the 1st and 2nd day attacks. His general's did not execute his battle-plans properly. Even Longstreet delayed his 2nd day attack for some hours. That was no small thing; if he'd attacked when instructed the Yankees could not have reached the Little Round Top in time (since they almost did not as it was)and Lee's plan would have rolled-up the Federal-right flank; then Lee's army would have gained the highest-ground on the battle-field and with their artillery placed upon both round-tops they would have destroyed Meade's fish-hook line of high-ground defense. Since the old warhorse hesitated, Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine reached the Little round top first and made history. Hood was to have said "they don't need guns to defend that, they can just throw rocks down on us"
I am merely speculating but I think Longstreet's unusual behavior is also indicative something was wrong at Lee's head-quarters, something that harbored doubts. Maybe it was the fact that Stonewall Jackson was dead and he had played a bigger role than "Lee's right-hand".
Lee would be dead in 8 years, I suspect his health was waning at the time of the battle; and most of us know; illness greatly affects clear thinking.
Quote:
Let me point you in the direction of a general I admire. He knew how to deal with those rebels; went by the name of William Tecumseh Sherman.
I never would guess you'd be a fan of Total-War.
I do admire Sherman but for a much different reason; he overcame his serious depressions and problems with the bottle to keep his command, just like Churchill did in WW2.
But as to his march? Nothing much there beyond his mastery of logistics; because Grant, fielding a vastly superior army with far superior supplies had Lee trapped & defending Richmond. Sherman may have beaten Atlanta's defenses but by that late date that's not saying much; the rebel army was hungry and shoeless, the Mississippi and most ports were closed, Jackson and Stuart were dead; the South was already in economic ruin and morale already low.
Btw, iirc Sherman had one of his own regrettable charges near Atlanta. But that was the standard of the day, it was an outdated mode of offensive warfare. When the defenders began standing behind improved cannons, behind rocks, within trees and digging trenches, all generals were still sending their waves of slow-walking lines of infantry into point-blank fire.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted June 06, 2013 02:41 PM |
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Sherman was not better than Lee. Also, if Lee had been in the Union army imo he would've done a better job than Sherman in the Confederate Army.
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markkur
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posted June 06, 2013 03:07 PM |
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Check out this Rebel; <imo> He's possibly the best natural leader of men on either side, but without doubt the best of Cavalry-commanders. J.E.B. Stuart got most of the "dashing-notoriety" but he might not have been...the best on horseback.
NBF
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Drakon-Deus
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posted June 06, 2013 03:27 PM |
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All right ! That's what I'm talking about. The North won because of numbers, not really because of better management.
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markkur
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posted June 06, 2013 03:49 PM |
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Correct. The North had a huge advantage when it came to the "tools of war"; men, equipment and supplies. "Industrial-might" has always been a very important groundwork for Victory in any War.
i.e. Look at the U.S. just before WWII or Russia's recovery when they shifted their entire Mfg capability to the Russian East. In no time, they had 1,000s of T-34s, while in the U.S. they were making thousands of Sherman-tanks.
Neither tank could match the Tigers (one on one, not even close)but the "production-might" of both countries absolutely overwhelmed any advantage.
Back to the Civil War, Grant beat Lee for the simple reason; he had far superior resources to hit Lee with. The worst slaughters of the war happened at Fredericksburg & Cold Harbor. Grant was able to keep doing endless "Pickett-type-charges" at rebel defenses. Lee stated the end of the war would be the Seige of Richmond and he was correct.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted June 06, 2013 03:55 PM |
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In other words, the South never had a real chance. But they still fought. For that, I admire them and their generals.
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blizzardboy
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posted June 06, 2013 06:20 PM |
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Sure they did. A pretty decent one too. The only significant weakness of Lee was his failure to appreciate the political ramifications in fighting. He knew Gettysburg was a high risk but he took it anyway because if he pulled it off he could have mopped up huge amounts of Union troops south of him but north of Confederate reserves. Too much wrapped up in the bread & butter & mathematics of warfare. The United States was the invader and it was far more susceptible to giving up. The Confederacy spent 90%+ of the time fighting on its soil and even if they continually lost pieces of ground they could have just kept letting themselves get pushed back and forcing US casualties to mount higher and higher. A million dead sons later and it's very likely Lincoln would have been ousted and another guy take his place to issue an armistice. When you're a little guy fighting a big outsider, that's generally the only way you can ever win. You don't actually win by forcefully marching to the opposing state's capitol.
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markkur
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posted June 06, 2013 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
In other words, the South never had a real chance. But they still fought. For that, I admire them and their generals.
I agree with Blizz; they did have a good chance to win in the summer of 63. Lee did gamble all because "he wanted the war ended" & as a matter of "fate", if the 2nd days battle @ Gettysburg had went Lee's way; (the battle for the round-tops)the Union Army would have become hugely unorganized and in full retreat. With a thinly defended Capitol...taken?; it's very probable that Lincoln would have been ousted.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted June 09, 2013 10:14 PM |
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Possible, we'll never know. Either way I'm happy that at least some people from the South and Northare not ashamed of the Civil War and realise that the Confederate army, flags and everything is still a valid part of history, as well as the Union's.
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MightyMage
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posted June 11, 2013 06:58 AM |
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I have no issue with the history of the south and the country as a whole. Different times and different beliefs. I don't agree with certain philosophies of the time but it is history. You can't change it. You can only learn from it. It's when some people (notice I don't limit this to just southerners) warp history to suit their needs where I have a problem.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted June 11, 2013 08:24 AM |
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I couldn't agree more.
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markkur
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posted June 11, 2013 04:50 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 16:51, 11 Jun 2013.
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It's when some people (notice I don't limit this to just southerners) warp history to suit their needs where I have a problem.
About a year ago I listened to an Audio-book covering a new trend regarding the teaching of History. Apparently, it's becoming acceptable for leading historians to 'fill in the blanks" by adding their own creative-speculations while never stating; they are mixing story-telling to historical accounts.
According to the author, this is now a large enough problem, that the "Faction" is appearing unannounced in Historical presentations and worse yet, are ignorantly placed in non-fiction sections of libraries.
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