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| Thread: Heroes 6 SOD strategy: Playing Dungeon faction |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Althea
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2013 12:41 PM |
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Edited by Althea at 12:49, 19 Jun 2013.
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@natalka
Me and Caracal understand clearly what you said, yes the number of implosion damage on the spell description of H6 exceed those of previous heroes, and because what we meant by 10k damage implosion is from H5 implosion, we'll compare it to the number in H5.
Number wise, H6 is higher, but the fact and the practical fact is different, the result will always be like this: H6 implosion damage will never reach 10k, it won't even exceed 5k in practice, while H5 implosion will easily reach 10k in practice, some even reach 18k.
And me and Caracal and i believe most people will care more about the actual practice rather than in paper, which is why H6 spell damage is worst than previous heroes.
Ok some fictional example to this: the damage in the tooltip of the spell says 3k damage, but when we cast it on hydra, boom, 10k damage appear and lots and lots of hydra died.
As said before, if we look at the mitigation variable, H6 has 2, the previous heroes has 1, lesser mitigation variable means higher damage.
If we look at damage of the spell, H6 might have higher number yes, but because of the mitigation, in practice, at best H6 will produce roughly equal damage as H3 in practice, obviously H4 will produce higher (play it again and try Disintegrate spell with high level sorcerer if you don't believe me), and H5 will top all of them because of there are many variable that increase the spell damage (only for Warlock/Dungeon faction).
That's why i said we grasp the problem and situation differently, what i and Caracal point out is the actual practice of the spell damage from hero, again actual practice and hero spell damage is the keywords, not spell damage in paper and magic in general (we never meant unit magic damage, only spell damage from heroes).
Which is why to us H6 is the worst in terms of hero spell damage compared to other heroes games, okay, i admit it's roughly equal to H3 (H3 implosion can reach 3k in actual practice), but against H4 or even H5, the damage of hero spell in H6 is way lower than both of those (especially against H5).
edit:
I hope this settles it.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 21, 2013 12:47 PM |
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I'm still researching haven vs dun duel matchup.
A couple of notes:
- as wyd said it takes 40 puppeteers (with 5 magic power from prime and 3 from dark magic I) to take control of 40 glories, but you don't need the +3 dark magic power to take control of 165 marksmen
- if you're playing blood might with might army (i think you should always play blood might with might army) marksmen with morale and pressed attack will kill off your stack of eyes in the first turn (even if you simply put mind probe and defend!!!) get cleave and attack your dancers - this is absolutely the worst scenario.
- with Realag you can reach marksmen with shades on the first turn by casting mass haste and positioning them forward in the corner where you suspect marksmen should be. And i guess this is the way to go but i can't guarantee victory.
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I played a couple of battles with sym as dungeon (he as haven) and i think it is an uphill battle. Anyway i've won the first duel using Raelag's (might tears, magic army) haste to get to archers on the first turn (picture below):
Hero's abilities:
type: Tears might
army: magic (Dungeon 2)
hero's specialization: Fleet feet
abilities:
defense III, attack III, luck III
reinforcement 1, ambush, tactics II
pressed attack, heroic charge
toughness III, resilience, cleave, giant slayer
magic power II, dispel, mass haste (normal haste is already given by hero specialization)
dark magic II, purge
ice armor mass,
The game was textbook - it went exactly as planned, shades stayed with the archers until they died, i managed to break his position and move to endgame with his full stack of angels vs my full stack of eyes and protecting them minotaurs, 60 sth puppeteers and one dragon. Magical units hid behind minotaurs i cast ice armor on them and feign death so angels cant reach my magical units and he surrendered with 15 angels (or sth like that).
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In our second game i've chosen the same hero and same positioning while sym changed it so i couldn't reach archers. The game froze so we had to restarted but i'd say i lost b/c sym camped hard in the corner and with no area of effect dmg (dancers were weakened by marksmen and griffins and i didn't have blizzard with this tears hero).
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In the 3rd game i went for blood might hero, started with blizzard and charged on his position. We both made some significant mistakes but a few problems with might blood army:
- blizzard is a quite good opening, not only it deals quite a lot of dmg to camping player but also increases dmg (might) by 20% which helps a lot your chakram dancers.
- with magic army i could leave minotaurs to guard archers, with might army they are too important to stay behind which leaves your shooters exposed
- the endgame is abysmal, you need to work out a decent edge to deal with angels b/c the chances are your magical units won't make it.
I threw in the towel when he had 18 angels vs my 12 minoutaurs, 100 eyes, 12 dragons and 11 shades. I knew he didn't use divine judgement so i subtracted 8 dragons and knew i had no chances, especially that my eyes were distant from my dragons and without much protection and were about to get slaughtered by angels. Funny enough, sym thought he was losing b/c he'd forgotten about divine judgement, but even without divine judgement i'd still lose.
Hero's abilities:
[edited to correct mistakes]
type: Blood might
army: might
hero's specialization: +2 def (might) stalker master might be a better choice
abilities:
defense III, attack III, luck III
ambush, tactics II
pressed attack, heroic charge, heroism mass
toughness III, resilience, cleave, giant slayer, archery I, rampage
magic power II, dispel,
dark magic I, purge
blizzard
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The problem with my strategy described on page 3, is that people got wiser and don't wait with glories, just defend. And a strategy cannot rely on your opponent's mistake.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Caracal
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 22, 2013 11:42 AM |
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Quote:
10k implosions I remember doing these in Homam 3 and 5 myself. How on earth do U mean that heroes 6 implosion with it's 2-3k dmg is better? I think I'm missing something cause according to my math 10k is bigger than 3k...pls elaborate cause I thnk I lost You.
Oh I think U ment unmitigated....which in that case could be but it's not important cause it will ALWAYS be mitigated not like implosion from previous parts.
quote:All staffs that give a manna reduction to spells are bugged and will wind up causing a manna increase instead during saves/loads. They became bugged in the newest patch. Will of Urgash is one of those staffs.
As a matter of fact they do work properly. I have just obtained Arachne in Necropolis campaign and checked if mana reduction works properly and it does.
okaaay after playing bit more I confirm they are bugged and my spells of dark school cost more than 50% of my mana pool while other spells stay at their initial mana cost
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 23, 2013 10:58 AM |
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Nameless, these duels that you play...do you have artifacts or everytime same army and no artifacts?
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 23, 2013 11:33 AM |
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Quote:
Nameless, these duels that you play...do you have artifacts or everytime same army and no artifacts?
o.O
Ok, in multiplayer you have 2 modes: standard (maps) and duel. In the duel mode most popular and what im playing is classic mode with no artifacts. So yes always the same army with no artifacts, a hero with 30 abilities.
That's why you can research strategies b/c you can predict what you can expect from your opponent.
Anyway, not so many people play the game nowadays.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 23, 2013 07:07 PM |
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I see...but with no artifacts is quite repetitive.
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sym9800
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 23, 2013 07:45 PM |
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Edited by sym9800 at 19:59, 23 Jun 2013.
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Hi,zerg.
Your post of strategy is good. I believe it one of the best of dungeon strategy vs that classic haven formation. Actually, I tries a similar one based on wyd's as yours in
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2358827576?pid=33383413452&cid=#33383413452
You can just look at the pics ignoring the language.
In the strategy, there are 3 key moves:
1. shade gets the shooter
2. big unit(scorpicore) protects the shade from the angel and occupies the protecting areas of the guard
3. BD cleaves glories and occupies the protecting area of the griffin.
Shortcomings£º
1.the shade can't survive more than 2 turn (this is the key part)
2.no effective protection of dungeon's back units
3. 50% probability of the relative position(the shade may stand at the wrong side)
Even with that opening, dungeon normally will lose, because units are hard to survive facing the angel as a blood army and the shooter of the haven are free of shooting at or after turn 2.
I have used it month ago vs your haven and I lost it. I remembered that I chose the wrong position of the shade, but that won't help much even if I made it right. Def and HP of the blood is the key.
Your idea of a might tear Raelag with magic army is much better:
1. more chance for the shade to survive because of the tear
2. support of ice armor
3. it is impossible for angel to kill faceless with pressed attack, because it dispel the skill automatically at retaliation.
I think this strategy beats the first formation of haven.
For the haven vs your strategy, I think it is better to follow these key rules:
1.protect the shooter with other units without glories
2.use Blade of Epiphany, pressed attack,and racial energy on the shooter at the first turn.
3.give the shooter inner fire or Haste which makes the racial protection last 2 turn and makes sure pressed attack won't be dispelled by "dispel". wyd once told me "Purge" can dispel the buffs even with the racial protection, so maybe it require more discussions here. It should combines with the cleave, I think.
My experience of haven is limited, so I dont know if these are correct ^ ^
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 24, 2013 12:05 AM |
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Thanks a lot sym!
I've read your post with google translate and yes its almost exactly the same as mine, i also use big creature to block angels from reaching shades. I'm using black dragons (the position of BD is kinda wrong in my screen shot above).
I always love to see another players' approaches to given matchups.
Quote:
Even with that opening, dungeon normally will lose
I feel your pain. My haven is just very strong, especially during the late game. And Dungeon kinda relies on damage over time (DoT) (Dragons, eyes, Shades, pressed attack) and eyes' mind probe (+15 dmg dealt to chosen creature) together with blood abilities (find weakness and soul mark) help a lot. Unfortunately, none of these work on Angels (none, like zero!) so as blood might you have to build a big advantage to be able to face them at the endgame.
Quote:
Your idea of a might tear Raelag with magic army is much better:
Thank you, i'm flattered but to be honest it works only in this certain position. I don't believe i could win if i didn't block marksmen in the first turn.
Blood really suits Dungeon (but maybe not vs haven) because enemy almost never retaliates. On the other hand, the more magical dmg you have, the better tears is because even magical units take advantage from defense but not from attack.
Quote:
For the haven vs your strategy, I think it is better to follow these key rules:
1.protect the shooter with other units without glories
Yes, definitely. I think as haven i will be forced to go super-(sayan XD)-camp style with tactics II and archers, praetorians and glories behind and vestal with angels in front and after 1st turn i'll try to put griffins (in the first turn they have to battle dive) in the place of angels (just theorycrafting).
use.....racial energy on the shooter at the first turn.
I don't think that's necessary. I tend to pool racial points to get GAIV (it's not a firm rule but in DUNvHAV i'd rather wait)
give the shooter inner fire or Haste which makes the racial protection last 2 turn and makes sure pressed attack won't be dispelled by "dispel". wyd once told me "Purge" can dispel the buffs even with the racial protection, so maybe it require more discussions here. It should combines with the cleave, I think.
I wouldn't recommend that. Wyd is right, both mass dispel and purge can dispel units under GA (and btw. they can dispel Dragons). I usually go for mass stone skin during the second turn although i have to reconsider b/c i'm very clamped up and purge would nullify this (although its one hero action for one hero action so it's not that bad).
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted June 25, 2013 10:17 AM |
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On maps if your chakram dancers move before enemy shooters you can shoot and then hide them in the shadows.
If opponent cannot reveal them - might hero without blizzard - each turn you will decimate them. Add on top of that stalker master specialization.
How do you counter this strategy?
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sym9800
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 29, 2013 07:04 PM |
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Edited by sym9800 at 19:19, 29 Jun 2013.
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Hi,zerg
I was discussing with wyd on strategies vs Blood might Haven these days. We really found some useful tips. We are inspired by your magic team and the strategies are based on that. Apologies that I will summarize them as in your format:
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Strategy for Blood Might Dungeon VS Blood Might Haven
Hero's abilities:
type: Blood might
army: magic (Dungeon 2)
hero's specialization: Abysses Dweller
abilities:
defense III, attack III
reinforcement II, tactics II
taunt, pressed attack, heroic charge
parry,toughness III, resilience, rampage,cleave, giant slayer, archery I
magic power II, dispel
dark magic II, purge, Life Drain,Blizzard
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Tips:
1.ambush is not learned, so that if you put faceless under Black dragon, faceless acts after the angel, and it is possible to puppet Griffin or Crusader. We wish for the Griffin ^ ^
2. Faceless act as the main attacker. 72 faceless can achieve cleave, with the heroic charge on it, by attacking 40 glories or 112 vestal without protection of praetorian. It can also kill 45 Griffin without protection of praetorian by a luck hit.
3. taunt is extremely useful if Griffin, Crusader and Marksman are all adjacent to Praetorian: Put faceless above Black dragon, and puppets Praetorian. Then it is the act of the angel. If the Haven does not dispel the puppet, Dungeon uses taunt on Praetorian. After that, Griffin, Crusader and Marksman will all automatically attack Praetorian even thought the puppet has been cleared by the first strike.
4. Blizzard is used if you can hit more than 3 units.
5. Life Drain is useful if you have a chance to put faceless near the enemy and hide it. For it will automatically hit the enemy and makes more than 3 times life Drain. It also helps, if faceless is damaged to around 50, with a life drain and heretic charge, it recovers fast.
6.Dancers's attack dispels heroic charge automatically.
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Basic strategy(it is based on tips):
Dungeon use a formation which protects faceless, dances and watchers. Mostly, stay behind. Black dragon attacks mostly in the blizzard and tries best to stay away from the angel's attacking range. Hiding shade move and kill units around the midfield. Kill marksman firstly. Dancers and Watcher stays at different corner. Watcher attacks firstly at marksman and secondly Crusader and thirdly Griffin. Use all tips above wisely.
If you are just focusing on a part of the tips, you may drop the other 1 or 2 skills and learn some other ones, like Affinity I, fire ball or Leader III.
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Shortcomings:
Because that the faceless is the key...
If the marksman is in good moral and is able to get pressed attack for faceless, then it is hard for Dungeon to play in the rest turns.
If the glories tries to blind faceless in the second turn, it is also breaks the line.
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Summary:
If the Haven won't use the blind for the faceless, it goes like 5:5; otherwise, it is 3.5:6.5.
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A new Bug found:
Suppose the angel is in good morale, choose to wait. At the end of turn, when the angel's act, put pressed attack on the angel, you get one extra times (4 times together) of pressed attack. It also work similarly for other abilities. This means you can use 3 times heroic charge, 3 times racial invincible protection, etc.
You may try to test, and it works for all races.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 29, 2013 09:38 PM |
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Hello Sym,
Always a pleasure to read your posts.
That's a very innovative strategy. I don't know whether I like it. I have to admit that in principle i don't like mixing might blood heroes and magic armies but won't go as far as to say that this is a bad composition. If you want we can test it. If so, you'd have to write when you will be available. However i have to admit that i almost never play with haven blood (not only it doesn't suits haven, anathema is bugged and increases dmg of the opponent's units (sic! o.O) which disrupts the whole game plan of how to get to the ultimate - Hour of Judgement) but i guess we can try.
I'll write my thoughts about the strategy:
1. What is your plan about spell: you have 4 spells and only 150 mana: dispel (15), purge (30), Life Drain (15),Blizzard (50).
Quote:
3. taunt is extremely useful if Griffin, Crusader and Marksman are all adjacent to Praetorian: Put faceless above Black dragon, and puppets Praetorian. Then it is the act of the angel. If the Haven does not dispel the puppet, Dungeon uses taunt on Praetorian. After that, Griffin, Crusader and Marksman will all automatically attack Praetorian even thought the puppet has been cleared by the first strike.
Very interesting, didn't know that
Quote:
6.Dancers's attack dispels heroic charge automatically.
Yes, the same goes to skeletons and i think every ability that effects speed (downgrade)
Quote:
If the marksman is in good moral and is able to get pressed attack for faceless, then it is hard for Dungeon to play in the rest turns.
Haven player will wait during the first turn to be able to attack your eyes. First thing i always check during a matchup vs Dun is if my opponent has Abyssal Dweller ability on his eyes. So 1st turn target will definitely be eyes, not puppeteers.
Quote:
A new Bug found:
Suppose the angel is in good morale, choose to wait. At the end of turn, when the angel's act, put pressed attack on the angel, you get one extra times (4 times together) of pressed attack. It also work similarly for other abilities. This means you can use 3 times heroic charge, 3 times racial invincible protection, etc.
You may try to test, and it works for all races.
I know about that and i believe it works for all races.
/EDIT/ this doesn't work for hour of judgement.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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sym9800
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 30, 2013 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
I have to admit that in principle i don't like mixing might blood heroes and magic armies but won't go as far as to say that this is a bad composition. If you want we can test it. If so, you'd have to write when you will be available.
I agree that for magic team, tear might Dungeon is better. The blood can ensure the cleave of faceless with heroic charge and good damage of Blizzard;while, it loses the ice armor, which is also important. So, if i don't focus on heroic charge,blizzard, or life drain, i will choose the tear.
Quote:
However i have to admit that i almost never play with haven blood (not only it doesn't suits haven, anathema is bugged and increases dmg of the opponent's units (sic! o.O) which disrupts the whole game plan of how to get to the ultimate - Hour of Judgement) but i guess we can try.
We encountered Blood might Haven in the Chinese server (I also bought a local version of the game), which uses heroic charge on Crusader, 4-6 pressed attack on the angel( wait in good morale and cleave and wait.... ) . The damage is huge. That's why we were discussing this issue. I think the strategy also works for might tear Haven, it is not limited here.
Quote:
1. What is your plan about spell: you have 4 spells and only 150 mana: dispel (15), purge (30), Life Drain (15),Blizzard (50).
Yes,Mana is not enough for these, it's better to focus on only life drain or blizzard, 1 out of 2. purge is for the angel and dispel is for the blind.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2013 07:37 PM |
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So, during our matches with sym, we talked about how parry (1st tier tears might ability) works. Unfortunately it doesn't work s it should:
- works only against might, not magic (so won't work against glories or puppeteers)
- doesn't work vs GA (if let's say angels have GA and your unit cannot retaliate, parry won't trigger)
- doesn't work vs Minotaurs' (special ability attack) Might Slash and i'm guessing vs every other special ability
- doesn't work vs units under shroud
i consider all of the aforementioned points bugs.
Quote:
in the Chinese server
There is a Chinese server? Why... it's a turn based strategy, lag is not important.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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sym9800
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 30, 2013 10:47 PM |
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Edited by sym9800 at 23:01, 30 Jun 2013.
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Quote:
we talked about how parry (1st tier tears might ability) works. Unfortunately it doesn't work s it should
Thanks for your test of Parry. It sounds only useful against stronghold now.
Quote:
There is a Chinese server? Why... it's a turn based strategy, lag is not important.
Might and Magic 6 has a Chinese version, but it is not shared with the main sever. It is a separated sever. For the separated sever, there are 200000 players.
I don't know why the official did this. I don't like it, because it takes me to buy two version of games to play with local friends and global friends. Besides, it cut the communication of our local players with global players.
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As for the blood might dungeon vs other races, I have these relative strength for now based on my experiences together with wyd's.I will use two numbers separated from 10, meaning are:
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7:3---easy to win even with several mistakes
6:4---win for sure with correct strategies
5.5:4.5---win more and lose less
5:5---hard to say
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blood might dungeon
vs magic necro 7:3
vs might necro 5:5
vs magic haven 7:3
vs might haven 4:6
vs magic sanc 5:5
vs might sanc 4.5:5.5
vs magic inferno 4.5:5.5
vs might inferno 3:7
vs magic stronghold 7:3
vs might stronghold 5.5:4.5
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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2013 03:45 PM |
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Quote:
So, during our matches with sym, we talked about how parry (1st tier tears might ability) works. Unfortunately it doesn't work s it should:
- works only against might, not magic (so won't work against glories or puppeteers)
- doesn't work vs GA (if let's say angels have GA and your unit cannot retaliate, parry won't trigger)
- doesn't work vs Minotaurs' (special ability attack) Might Slash and i'm guessing vs every other special ability
- doesn't work vs units under shroud
i consider all of the aforementioned points bugs.
Not sure I'd consider the first item a bug. It makes sense that you can't parry a short range magical blast, only a physical attack. The same as not being able to parry a ranged attack. OTOH, that may not be the intent of the ability and the description doesn't specify such a limitation. Only the devs know.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2013 10:07 AM |
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Quote:
.... 4-6 pressed attack on the angel( wait in good morale and cleave and wait.... )
Wait, what? How can you reach 6 pressed attacks? 5 is the maximum i think.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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sym9800
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 02, 2013 10:42 AM |
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Edited by sym9800 at 10:45, 02 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
Wait, what? How can you reach 6 pressed attacks? 5 is the maximum i think.
wait-attack-cleave-wait-attack-attack£¿
is the second wait possible? If it is,it is 6;else, it is 5. I am not sure.
But I am sure griffin can get 6 by taking the good morale in turn1 into turn2 by flying
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2013 11:28 AM |
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Quote:
wait-attack-cleave-wait-attack-attack£¿
is the second wait possible? If it is,it is 6;else, it is 5. I am not sure.
But I am sure griffin can get 6 by taking the good morale in turn1 into turn2 by flying
No, you cannot wait after you've just waited.
Great point on Griffins!!! I just cannot, cannot believe i've never thought about it (about the 6 pressed attacks). And i consider myself an expert in haven might tears  .
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2013 02:18 PM |
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I've played a lot more duels involving Dungeon, and as I usually play Magic, Magic Dungeon. So these are my new observations:
1. I prefer to take Chakhram Dancer specialization over Abysses Dweller, for a number of reasons - Eyes always get finished quite quickly however you protect them, 20% for me personally is quite weak, and my Chakhram dancers can deal almost as much damage as eyes with their ability, without attracting same attention Versus magic heroes, Dancers are absolutely devastating.
2. I find Magic vs Magic duels to be quite easy for Dungeon: Against Necro turtle, for example, acid cloud + fire spells work wonders if you are blood, if tears, just create a small opening with dragons and summon Dark Elementals and defend with them.
3. VS Might it is very very hard to defeat a skilled opponent. Not many people play Inferno these days, so I cant comment on them, but for me in order of difficulty versus Might: Stronghold>Sanctuary>Necro>Haven.
It is a virtually impossible to defeat Haven might due to things like Glories blindness bug and Celestials purity(together with racial). I have won few duels against skilled Haven, but more by luck then skill. I don't play much Might, but I did manage to win against Haven using Tears Might, but it was a very difficult match.
I think the balance in duels is a bit off, really. I think Heroic charge and Pressed Attack should be nerfed, and other Warcries such as Flawless attack to be improved. Bit offtopic, but I find it ridiculous how weak Stronghold is in Duels, especially their Magic heroes. May be let them cast twice a turn?
Back to Dungeon i would love to see few things implemented:
1) No retaliation when stacks get discovered whilst under Shroud
2) No melee penalty for dancers
3) Withering Breath affecting adjacent stacks and not dispellable
Overall, I prefer to play full games and not duels, because they allow me to play more strategically, use terrain and Dungeon racial building to the advantage(hiding cores numbers and first level of racial are my facourite), and to build an army which relies more on Scorpicores and Faceless and less on Monotaurs and Shades(as Magic). I think the overall balance is alight, just in the Duels its really shifted towards Necro/Haven(Inferno?) at the moment.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2013 03:02 PM |
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Quote:
I think the overall balance is alight, just in the Duels its really shifted towards Necro/Haven(Inferno?) at the moment.
Rly? I talked to a friend who plays MP maps and as far as i know the balance is much more shifted towards magic, blood and Necro. It's maybe b/c most people play small maps where bloody mages excel.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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