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| Thread: Should the EU be dissolved? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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fred79
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posted June 27, 2013 04:21 PM |
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no it's not. i'm talking about organized groups of people screwing other people over. it's actually spot-on, professor.
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Fauch
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posted June 27, 2013 04:27 PM |
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yeah, I saw several time the EU being compared to the 3rd reich or the URSS. obviously that's different. there's something dictatorial about the EU, people have no other choice that accepting european treaties, no one asks them what they think, or when they do, they don't listen anyway, and if people get too loud, they send the police (like for pensions in France) but nazis were clearly far more violent.
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Zenofex
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posted June 27, 2013 04:31 PM |
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I was talking about the World War II analogy. Read some history and you'll find out why it's totally inadequate, professor.
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fred79
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posted June 27, 2013 04:31 PM |
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Quote:
yeah, I saw several time the EU being compared to the 3rd reich or the URSS. obviously that's different. there's something dictatorial about the EU, people have no other choice that accepting european treaties, no one asks them what they think, or when they do, they don't listen anyway, and if people get too loud, they send the police (like for pensions in France) but nazis were clearly far more violent.
of course they were far more violent. got a rise out of people, didn't it? the nazi's got sawed off at the knees. seeing the results of that, the current "nazis" think: "best to play it under the radar", which is what all the governments are doing now, and have been for years. not very well, but whatever. as long as they keep the public entertained and gainfully employed, all will be well, right? you can take that to the bank, lol.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 27, 2013 04:33 PM |
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Should EU ever disband the only place in Europe I would willingly visit would be Finland and I would move to snowing united states.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Fauch
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posted June 27, 2013 04:37 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 16:38, 27 Jun 2013.
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fred : yeah, not always that well as you say, which is quite scary, why can they keep on doing it??
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fred79
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posted June 27, 2013 04:46 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:49, 27 Jun 2013.
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I was talking about the World War II analogy. Read some history and you'll find out why it's totally inadequate, professor.
like i said, it's about a group of people, trying to run other people. it's very simple. it's basic. you don't have to be a genius to see the power they have. you don't have to be einstein to see how they can do pretty much whatever they want to people, as long as they keep it under the radar. the nazi's didn't. they are the same, power-wise. they learned from what happened with the nazi's, that you can't be that blatant and get away with it. that's what i'm talking about.
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Zenofex
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posted June 27, 2013 05:02 PM |
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The Nazis however had a *slightly* different idea of unifying Europe which very few people outside Germany and partially Italy and Spain were fond of.
Let me ask you something else - are you in favour of the US remaining a federal state or you prefer to see it dissolve into separate unitary states? And explain why please.
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fred79
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posted June 27, 2013 05:15 PM |
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The Nazis however had a *slightly* different idea of unifying Europe which very few people outside Germany and partially Italy and Spain were fond of.
Let me ask you something else - are you in favour of the US remaining a federal state or you prefer to see it dissolve into separate unitary states? And explain why please.
i know that the nazi's had a different way of doing things. i've already stated that in an above post.
as far as the u.s. remaining a federal state, it doesn't matter, really. things would be more complicated if they were split up(for both the government and the people), but it would be more difficult for the government to operate as it does now, which is a blanket-governing, and more refined way, to directly leech money out of the taxpayers, and use it however they feel. of course, the irs would have more work on their hands. i would say i'm in favor of a splitting apart, but i'm sure the government, banks, and corporations would just find another way to exploit people. they always will.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted June 27, 2013 07:17 PM |
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Nazis make everything better.
Just think of any verb and add "with Nazis" to it.
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xerox
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posted June 27, 2013 11:49 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:52, 27 Jun 2013.
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I don't think the EU should be dissolved but it does stand at a crossroads. What is the right path forward: centralisation or decentralisation?
Historically, decentralisation gave Europe a huge advantage over China. Contrary to Europe, China centralised for a number of centuries and that gave european that window of opportunity where we (europeans) colonized pretty much the entire world. However, times change. Countries like China emerged from its isolation and today, European countries no longer compete solely with each other. We compete with the whole world and it's a world that is catching up very fast. Already, low-wage competitiveness is being replaced by a new generation of children being tutored at some of the world's best schools. So now, when we no longer primarily compete amongst ourselves, does centralisation make a lot more sense? Maybe. But if Europe's going federal, then that needs the approval of its citizens. And it does in no way have that approval today.
Federations start to fail when people no longer see the benefits. Historically, we can see this as some of the factors behind the fall of Yugoslavia. Citizens won't support federal Europe if like now, half it's citizens are subsidizing and supporting the other half. For centralisation to work, there can be no bad eggs on the ship. Removing these bad eggs is hard because it hurts the legitimacy of the EU. Germans perceive the greek as parasites. Greeks perceives the germans as oppressors, nazis even. The gap between the two widens and as as a result, the legitimacy for a more centralised, federal Europe slims. In the short term, cleaning up bad eggs like today's Greece is painful. However if the EU can get Greece to take responsibility, then that will be a long term win for economic stability and social legitimacy for the EU.
There are more bad eggs in Europe than Greece though. The current situation, when it comes to the legitimacy for more centralisation or even for the current EU at whole, is abysmal. That lack of legitimacy is not only due to the economical differences between north and south. It's also related to identity and democracy. Do people feel european enough to avoid secterianism and nationalism during recessions? Do people feel that the powerhouse of the EU, the Commission, is legitimate despite them not being democratically elected? All these factors show that even if centralisation to the point of federalisation is preferable, it'll take a long time and much effort for it to even be a possibility.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
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posted June 28, 2013 03:02 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 03:06, 28 Jun 2013.
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Countries like China emerged from its isolation and today, European countries no longer compete solely with each other. We compete with the whole world and it's a world that is catching up very fast.
it seems that the treaty on the functioning of the EU makes trade barriers illegal in the EU and therefore makes our companies less protected against concurrence from countries such as China. it also makes it easy to relocate in those countries.
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However if the EU can get Greece to take responsibility, then that will be a long term win for economic stability and social legitimacy for the EU.
lol what? what the EU did was impose a lot of austerity plans on them which only made their situation worse and worse.
for which reason should the greeks be angry at germany? it seems to me that Goldman Sachs caused more damage.
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mvassilev
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posted June 28, 2013 04:17 AM |
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it seems that the treaty on the functioning of the EU makes trade barriers illegal in the EU and therefore makes our companies less protected against concurrence from countries such as China. it also makes it easy to relocate in those countries.
Those are all good things.
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Fauch
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posted June 30, 2013 07:12 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted June 30, 2013 08:06 PM |
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Could some of you please stop feigning that the "nations" we've got in Europe now are something like a natural state that has to be conserved like a holy grail or something.
There is no alternative to a unified Europe and in the long run to a unified world.
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mvassilev
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posted June 30, 2013 08:19 PM |
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how and for who?
Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'll point you here.
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Doomforge
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posted June 30, 2013 08:25 PM |
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No, it shouldn't. It has its faults, but the countries mean nothing separately and should they try to protect "their own" business, we'll just backpedal to what Europe was 80 years ago. And it ended in two horrible wars, preceded by hundreds of wars before that.
the Union should be tighter, not weaker. And nationalism should be banned,
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Seraphim
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posted June 30, 2013 10:25 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 22:38, 30 Jun 2013.
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No, it shouldn't. It has its faults, but the countries mean nothing separately and should they try to protect "their own" business, we'll just backpedal to what Europe was 80 years ago. And it ended in two horrible wars, preceded by hundreds of wars before that.
Point is, before there were no nuclear weapons, advanced tech that would make it possible to comit mass murder easily and so on and so forth. Basically, full on war nowadays is a stipuid thing to do and is unlikely.
I dont think that if the EU would dissolve, wars or any sort of those things would happen. There might be a precedent for conflict though.
I think that every country in the planet should fend off for themselves and that joining any sort of economic-political union is just going to back fire. I am not talking about military alliances though.
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the Union should be tighter, not weaker. And nationalism should be banned,
It should dissolve, everyone revert back to pre EU guide lines. There would be a lot less trash news, scandals and so happening.
Nationalism is deeply rooted into peoples minds. You dont expect people to say, "oh we are in the eu now, we should stop hating our historical/political enemies". Thats wishful thinking and selfpride comes before everything else. I dont see people saying "oh, Bach was an european, we should be proud of him being an european? rather than saying he was German"
I dont think that Germany or the UK needs special representation to compete with the world, they dont.
The whole EU idea seems to be like a misfits idea of dressing the EU to be like the US, which it is not and wont ever be.
It falls down to the old age, without the US, Europe would have been soviet. Its all about competing with the BRIC, which the EU currently does not in any shape or form.
The EU is like a giant wellfare union for the weak countries which the strong ones must manage. Call it the european club of nations who need guide lines to govern themselves, or all southern countries.
From a rational standpoint, it does not make sense for the strong countries to do so because the southern countries are basically leeching money and funds. What I am trying to say is the the EU is a bad idea for the strong countries and should cease to exist for the sake of rationality. Strong countries have vested interest in the well being of the weaker ones, why should such a union even exist in the first place? To save people in the south? Thats just stupid. If one cannot govern themselves, they should be kept away from funds.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 30, 2013 10:35 PM |
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What country are you from?
And if it's part of the EU, which country would that have been 25 years ago, 50 years ago, 75 years go - you get the idea. (If not - what do you know?)
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Fauch
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posted June 30, 2013 10:59 PM |
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maybe poland would mean nothing separately, but not germany or France.
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