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| Thread: Should the EU be dissolved? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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OhforfSake
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posted September 21, 2013 04:54 PM |
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To be honest, I prefer we've EU. In fact my view point is that decisions should be centralized when it's a matter of global, non-violating, matters, while localized to the single person, when it's a matter of something which can otherwise be regarded as a violation of himself.
Ultimately, I'd like for sufficient resources for all decisions to become single person decisions, at which point there's no need for EU (or even better, a globalized, centralized, Earth). But before then, I say the more agreement and cooperation, the better.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted September 21, 2013 04:57 PM |
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I don't like the EU. Each country should be fully indepedent.
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xerox
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posted September 21, 2013 05:22 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:24, 21 Sep 2013.
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I disagree. The aim should not be for countries to be as independent as possible but for individuals to be as independent as possible. The EU can actually be means to achieve this through things like the development of the internal market and free trade. Of course, if you elect the wrong politicians next year, you'll end up with an EU that does the opposite of that.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
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posted September 21, 2013 06:01 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:03, 21 Sep 2013.
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do you imply that our politicians have any power over what the EU does? from what I understand, european commission commands, politicians obey.
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xerox
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posted September 21, 2013 06:09 PM |
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They have more power than you think, probably more than your domestic politicians. And don't forget that the composition of the European Comission depends on the results of the elections. I personally I wish it was more directly elected though.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OhforfSake
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Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted September 21, 2013 06:31 PM |
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xerox said:
I disagree. The aim should not be for countries to be as independent as possible but for individuals to be as independent as possible.
I agree very much with this.  
Also I agree that the EU could be means to achieve this. I like your thinking Xerox.
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Fauch
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posted September 21, 2013 06:39 PM |
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by provoking a revolution? 
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OhforfSake
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posted September 21, 2013 06:43 PM |
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Fauch said:
by provoking a revolution?
You lost me, sorry. 
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Fauch
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posted September 21, 2013 07:06 PM |
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there are a lot of people who would probably cut a few europeist heads.
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markkur
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Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 25, 2013 09:49 PM |
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At the time of the OP, I had my head in the sand and had not looked at international news for a very long time. Not because of bias or anything uncaring, just a lot already on my plate to deal with.
Moving on, today I took a peek into the larger world and hit this thread's topic.
The gypsy problem
French minister Valls defends call for Roma expulsions
comments
I then looked back 1&1/2 years earlier
before
After seeing "passport-free Schengen Agreement" then I read about it for the first time
link
I was really blown-away by this change in Europe. My God, I never thought all of Europe would go for something <imvho> this crazy.
The first thing that hit me was; this "grand vision" is like a United-States of Europe and after reading about France's problem with dealing with this grand-idea; it's sounds exactly like what the U.S. is dealing with, as some of our states. like Texas, California and Arizona, are much harder hit by the nearly non-existent U.S. borders.
I'm stunned by all of this and somehow cannot get past my gut-feeling; that this grand vision was not "we care so much about humanity" but was nothing more than easy access to cheap labor. I'll think I forget all about this and head back to my sand.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 25, 2013 10:57 PM |
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Yes, markur. You pretty much nailed it.
Really, just about now Merkel won the german elections which means more bad news for Greece, more budget based reforms.
I wonder how Greeks feel about it right now...
The EU will probably continue its trend that it heralds the moral superiority and continue to remain hypocritical.
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xerox
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posted September 25, 2013 11:43 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:48, 25 Sep 2013.
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yes poor Greece getting billions of euros from German taxpayers - Merkel's such a nazi right
Also the free migration is one of the more appreciated aspects of the EU. I personally consider it to be a fundamental human right. It shocks me how french governments have treated and treat the romani people for seemingly nothing than an arbitrary statement about how they "can't integrate". Fortunaly, that very same free migration enables them to come to more tolerant countries.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 25, 2013 11:59 PM |
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xerox said:
yes poor Greece getting billions of euros from German taxpayers - Merkel's such a nazi right
Also the free migration is one of the more appreciated aspects of the EU. I personally consider it to be a fundamental human right.
As markur said, its just there to dampen salaries. As can be seen on the french, they would not hesitate to deport people if they become a burden, despite EU agreements.
And greece is not really getting "funds", more like loans they will have to repay.
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xerox
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posted September 26, 2013 12:18 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:24, 26 Sep 2013.
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Quote:
As markur said, its just there to dampen salaries.
That depends on how you ask. It's not like there's one argument for free migration that everybody shares. Like to me, it's solely a question of morals and rights so I don't care what happens to people's salaries. That's just an extremely egoistic way of thinking. However after Sweden introduced pretty much free labour immigration (and some unions protested, as usual) that did not shrink salaries. The biggest change was that we got a lot of indian computer specialists as there was not a large enough domestic supply of them.
It's not like Greece will ever repay those "loans". Hopefully, they will do as they are obliged to by the loans and implement structural reform.
Long-term, this is probably good for Greece as it will move away from their history of reckless government spending, cheating and devaluation.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted September 26, 2013 12:40 AM |
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xerox said:
Quote:
As markur said, its just there to dampen salaries.
That depends on how you ask. It's not like there's one argument for free migration that everybody shares. Like to me, it's solely a question of morals and rights so I don't care what happens to people's salaries. That's just an extremely egoistic way of thinking. However after Sweden introduced pretty much free labour immigration (and some unions protested, as usual) that did not shrink salaries. The biggest change was that we got a lot of indian computer specialists as there was not a large enough domestic supply of them.
"Free" movement is just for the "ends". Its not there for any moral "Reason" and that is all I am saying. If it suits the needs of the state, it will be glorified till high heavens and demonized once you get too much.
Quote:
It's not like Greece will ever repay those "loans". Hopefully, they will do as they are obliged to by the loans and implement structural reform.
Long-term, this is probably good for Greece as it will move away from their history of reckless government spending, cheating and devaluation.
Wikipedia has some interesting statements about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#First_rescue_package_.28May_2010.29
Simply doing austerity measures will not make it better for greece. THe problem lies with germany aswell because it insists on "claiming" that its the fault of the greeks and them alone, which is not true. The germans play a big role in the recession, at least thats what i get from the wikipedia article.
To be honest, I dont care anymore. I would not even care if a new WW was to break in europe again, but for the sake of knowledge its good to know what the "higher ups" are doing or planning.
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xerox
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posted September 26, 2013 01:28 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:33, 26 Sep 2013.
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It's entirely possible to support free movement out of moral/ideological reasons though the primary motivation in this case was probably economic.
Austerity was clearly needed as problems obviously arise when you have a government that spends way more than what it gets from tax revenue, hower how much of it is a subject of debate amongst economists. Austerity is also only one of the things expected from the Greek government.
I doubt we will get anything near the scale of the world wars again. Maybe if the US collapses.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2013 02:06 AM |
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no it's not true. for example I read that the japanese government had to get into massive debts to prevent the economic situation from degrading too much. that was the only way they could inject money in their economy and keep the monetary mass more or less stable.
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Salamandre
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posted September 26, 2013 02:08 AM |
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Well, the french minister nailed it pretty well:
"I've got nothing to correct," he said. "My remarks only shock those who don't know the subject.
No pun intended, but looks like none here is prepared on the roms and Schengen subjects. If you believed french territory is open to Roms, Romanians or Bulgarians, read again about which countries Schengen agreement is. As for Bruxelles, none gives a damn about them. What they basically ask is to give free houses to 40k illegal roms, invoking some obscure fundamental human rights. Pure snow.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
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posted September 26, 2013 04:59 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Well, the french minister nailed it pretty well:
"I've got nothing to correct," he said. "My remarks only shock those who don't know the subject.
What they basically ask is to give free houses to 40k illegal roms, invoking some obscure fundamental human rights. Pure snow.
Nope, they are not asking that, they are only trying to earn some cash, like you know, everybody and just like nobody gives a damn about them, they dont aswell. Its not like gypsies are genetically predisposed to crime and "savagery". Its a legacy and what mr.french minister said is rather stupid.
Not to meantion that most gypsies come from post communist countries. I dont think that they had nothing to eat during a socialist regime.
So its time that either europe forces countries with gypsie populations to crackdwon on racism and enable gypsie communities to develop or at least shut up when they(Gypsies) flock around in europe creating shanty towns around cities.
But since nobody is going to do that, I would really like european officials stop talking with words such as "Democracy", "Peace","Freedom", "Human Rights" and "Cooperation" when they themselves are ready to forgo all that, hypocrisy. Sure, europeans have vested interest in such matters, but its laughable to talk about such matters in the way mr.french ministier did.
Its not sheep you are dealing with, they are people, PEOPLE, HUMAN BEINGS. Gypsies are dicriminated across europe with no exception. Everyone hates them and refering them as gypsies is racist.
Ill give europe 50 years before it becomes a bumch of balkanized states with hate crimes against other ethnicities being rampart. Sort of like the KKK vs blacks.
I dont know its human nature of simply the nazi legacy of germany in europe. I wonder how mr.french minister would feel if some french were improsioned or deported because of grounds of disturbing the public or creating shanty towns.
I sort of understand iranians and their kidnapping of annoying activists among its borders. I know I am exaggerating, but it seens appropriate.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted September 26, 2013 08:25 AM |
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seraphim said:
Its not like gypsies are genetically predisposed to crime and "savagery". Its a legacy and what mr.french minister said is rather stupid.
Genetically I don't know (do you?), but culturally for sure. You'll find thousands of reports about gypsies stealing, raping and killing. Every time they install somewhere, the crime rate is going on rampage.
seraphim said:
I dont know its human nature of simply the nazi legacy of germany in europe. I wonder how mr.french minister would feel if some french were improsioned or deported because of grounds of disturbing the public or creating shanty towns.
Emm? Those people are illegally coming and they are not deported somewhere, but returned back in modern plane, + a nice 300 euros bonus/head. Do you know what means deported or Nazism? Dude, those people have no papers, they ARE illegal, how would you want to regularize them? On what basis? Following your logic, the "human rights" concept forces anyone to accept and support all the world's misery. Does your country show the example? No, zero, so why condemn others if you are not capable?
This angelic tendency to consider that all humans of all races/cultures are similar, think same and should automatically have same rights has no scientific support. Rights should be earn when societies evolve, not when they clash.
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