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| Thread: Immigration policies and their effect on foreign and domestic nationals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 12:03 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 12:04, 23 Jan 2014.
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Immigration policies and their effect on foreign and domestic nationals
(if there is such a thing as a "domestic national". what i mean is, a citizen of the country that the foreign national resides in.)
i thought i'd create this thread, as looking through 13 pages in the osm, i couldn't find anything to post this in.
this is an interesting read.
as far as this news story goes, do you think it is right to give a foreign national the death penalty for something they did while in a different country? do you think that if a foreign national is treated as a citizen in a positive manner while they live in a foreign country, should they be treated negatively if they do something wrong by that same country?
i would like to hear you guy's thoughts on this. do you think this man was wrongfully executed, or rightfully executed, and why? what do you think about the immigration policies currently carried out in the u.s., as well as other countries?
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mvassilev
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posted January 23, 2014 02:57 PM |
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I'm against the death penalty altogether. That said, it makes sense for a government to enforce its laws within its borders. I don't see any strong case against it, except bad PR.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 23, 2014 03:00 PM |
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There are quite a few nations which refuse to exchange prisoners for this very reason. As a Finnish citizen I wouldn't be handed over to Texas for any crime where death penalty is a possible punishment.
That said, I don't think there's any reason to even hold foreign citizens in jails, just deport all of them and let their home countries deal with them.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 23, 2014 03:07 PM |
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Quote:
just deport all of them and let their home countries deal with them.
What if you do a crime that your home country would approve of?
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 06:57 PM |
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2014 08:54 PM |
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But what if it is a crime with victims and they are demanding justice?
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 23, 2014 09:16 PM |
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Justice system does not exist for revenge
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 09:25 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 21:26, 23 Jan 2014.
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That's the big problem with many of us - there are people who are "demanding justice", which actually means "Let him feel like the victim". That's not how the law should work. Judgement and prisons shouldn't really be supposed to literaly punish people who broke the law, it's more about resocialization and making these criminals normal citizens in at least some ways. Banning someone from entering the country because there's a different law in his country is also some kind of resocialization, although more drastical.
Maybe we should finally get some lessons from Scandinavian countries and stop this barbaric "eye for eye" logic?
EDIT: JoonasTo actually said what I wanted to say in just one sentence. 
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mvassilev
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posted January 23, 2014 09:47 PM |
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Hobbit said:
Then you should just be banned from visiting this country.
And that's all? Not much of a reason to abstain from some types of crimes. Suppose someone comes to your country (as an immigrant or a tourist) and burns down your house. Should being banned from your country be the only consequence?
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 23, 2014 09:51 PM |
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I dont discriminate against people just coz they're foreigners, if they do smth devious, just kill them and be over with it...
I would also just cut out the middleman to avoid 17 years of appeals...
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2014 09:53 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:53, 23 Jan 2014.
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JoonasTo said:
Justice system does not exist for revenge
I'm not talking about revenge, let's say someone rapes a prostitute, let's say that the raper's country is a middle eastern theocracy which has no penalty for that and the crime took place in a European country where that is no different than any other rape, would the rape victim be seeking for revenge if she objects to deportation and asks for the rapist to be trialed in her country.
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 23, 2014 10:04 PM |
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artu said:
JoonasTo said:
Justice system does not exist for revenge
I'm not talking about revenge, let's say someone rapes a prostitute, let's say that the raper's country is a middle eastern theocracy which has no penalty for that and the crime took place in a European country where that is no different than any other rape, would the rape victim be seeking for revenge if she objects to deportation and asks for the rapist to be trialed in her country.
Are you serious ?
Prostitute would be cool with deporting his ass back to middle east and banning him from ever returning coz trial would be retarded...
Prostitutes and rape trials are a huge success...
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 10:09 PM |
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@mvassilev: I responded to Tsar-Ivor's question.
Tsar-Ivor said:
What if you do a crime that your home country would approve of?
If a foreigner burns my house and it's not acceptable in his country, then his country should judge him. If it is acceptable in his country though, then yes, he should be banned from entering my country. It's not that simple, of course, it depends on what kind of crime it is (I wouldn't ban for e.g. stealing an apple from the store), and there always have to be some negotiations with embassy etc., but if criminal's country doesn't want to punish him, then we can't really do much about it rather than not allowing this person to live here. Resocialization wouldn't work anyway, and punishing him just for revenge would be barbaric.
artu said:
let's say someone rapes a prostitute, let's say that the raper's country is a middle eastern theocracy which has no penalty for that and the crime took place in a European country where that is no different than any other rape
Do you really think that if the raper's country has no penalty for that, the raper would really learn not to rape after punishing him in other country? If not, then there would be no point in keeping him in jail anyway.
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smithey
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posted January 23, 2014 10:17 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 22:18, 23 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
Resocialization wouldn't work anyway, and punishing him just for revenge would be barbaric.
If you kill John (random dude I dont know) I want u in jail, not coz I want revenge (I dont even know the dude) but coz I want justice.
If you strip me of my sense of justice you're opening the door to anarchy.
Justice is one of aspects used by the gov' for mass control, false sense of safety if you rather call it that, take it away and we're going back to our animalistic roots...
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2014 10:20 PM |
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@smithey
She might or she might not, the question is hypothetical.
@hobbit
So what, the concept of justice is not entirely built upon teaching criminals a lesson, it is also built upon harmful actions having consequences. Consequence of rape being deportation can seem unjust to many, I wouldnt think of that as an unreasonable thought.
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 23, 2014 10:31 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 22:46, 23 Jan 2014.
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@ Artu, Im not sure you're familiar with how bad rape victims are treated by the system, take a look at these numbers and you'll see that deportation is just fine
Stats...
Furthermore, being deported places you on a blacklist which means you're flagged, most countries wont allow you entry...
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 10:33 PM |
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smithey said:
If you kill John (random dude I dont know) I want u in jail, not coz I want revenge (I dont even know the dude) but coz I want justice.
And that's what I'm calling barbaric. You don't want me to be a normal citizen in that case - you just want me to be punished. What's the point different than releasing your anger? Would that make your country better?
smithey said:
If you strip me of my sense of justice you're opening the door to anarchy.
...what?
artu said:
So what, the concept of justice is not entirely built upon teaching criminals a lesson, it is also built upon harmful actions having consequences. Consequence of rape being deportation can seem unjust to many, I wouldnt think of that as an unreasonable thought.
It IS unreasonable, it's based only on our emotions toward the criminal, not the actual consequences of punishing him.
Assume that this guy is going to jail and after several years of punishment he's going back to his country where raping women is allowed. Not only he's not going to improve by any meanings, but also we lose money on keeping him in jail while this money could be used in some other way. In other words: we fail.
As I said it's not that simple, of course, it depends on what our justice system and embassy of criminal's country want to do, but if one side can't agree with the other on several important things, then I think we can only release him to his home. After all, you don't punish someone's kid when he can't behave properly on your child's party, you rather just send him to his parents and not allow him to go back until your parents deal with him. And in many cases his parents don't really give a damn, and you can do nothing about it anyway.
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blizzardboy
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posted January 23, 2014 10:33 PM |
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It really depends. In a Texas vs. Mexico situation, Texas isn't just going to hand over convicted murderers when the border between the two countries is so porous and Mexican authorities are less reliable in being able to enforce their laws. They'll be hated for it, but it's a powerless hatred since economic and political cooperation will grossly override any of that stuff. Any half-competent state will keep a hold of them. Analogous situation are Pakistanis committing severe crimes in India. Naturally, Pakistan will be diplomatically obliged to ***** and protest, but that isn't going to change much, nor does it even necessarily mean that their authorities are genuinely upset that some of their nationals are being held.
Generally speaking, deportation is standard procedure.
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smithey
Promising
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 23, 2014 10:36 PM |
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Hobbit said:
smithey said:
If you kill John (random dude I dont know) I want u in jail, not coz I want revenge (I dont even know the dude) but coz I want justice.
And that's what I'm calling barbaric. You don't want me to be a normal citizen in that case - you just want me to be punished. What's the point different than releasing your anger? Would that make your country better?
smithey said:
If you strip me of my sense of justice you're opening the door to anarchy.
...what?
I dont care about you, you're a criminal however I do care about normal people, those who dont kill other people, and I want them to be safe from you..
Yes, it makes my country better coz its safer for non-criminals
Without the sense of justice, I dont feel safe, when I dont feel safe I might as well be a criminal myself = anarchy
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 10:53 PM |
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smithey said:
I dont care about you, you're a criminal
That's not how justice works. It's just your emotions, not justice.
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