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| Thread: Immigration policies and their effect on foreign and domestic nationals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 08:07 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 20:38, 24 Jan 2014.
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smithey said:
Whats going on in Norway is a working system coz it turned around a few people, lol, thats a good one
Well, yes, it is working if there are not so many people who murder (quite opposite to countries where death penalty is a common "solution"). Isn't that obvious?
smithey said:
We cant decide on other man's life, wait what ? We really are not making decisions on his life, the choice is his and only his.
Enough with this bullsnow. The explanation "It was his choice to let me kill him" is just so dumb I can't even describe it. This murderer is also a human and if you don't want to accept his humanity because he made some mistakes or maybe even big mistakes, there's clearly something wrong with you.
What if a murderer said to you that his victim made him to kill him because of his own code? Would you accept that? If not, then you're just a hypocrite.
smithey said:
Just do it, and after you're done talking to the family of the child whos killer just got released a few months back (coz he deserved a second chance), come back to us and preach about your "working solution"...
Do you even read what I posted? No one here wants to release a murderer after few months. Resocialization takes years, not months.
The rest of your post for me is just horrific. I'm not a psychologist, so I don't want to talk with you about value of human's life because that would be just pointless due to my lack of professionalism.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 24, 2014 08:38 PM |
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Hobbit said:
Resocialization takes years, not months.
My grammar correcter says resocialization word does not exist. Fact is that we don't know how to "resocialize" criminals, we don't even know what triggers their unusual behavior, we know nothing about.
Is just a word you throw, and his use is only to bestow you some moral ascendant, ie I am generous and open minded. There is no scientific approach for resocialization or criminal behavior. Thus the only valid solution possible, for now, is to take them out from society.
Until we get more precise infos about causes and effects.
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smithey
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posted January 24, 2014 08:51 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 20:55, 24 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
Well, yes, it is working if there are not so many people who murder (quite opposite to countries where death penalty is a common "solution"). Isn't that obvious?
How you reckon that ? You cant compare different countries and claim that death penalty or lack of it is a cause for anything, the notion is a rather laughable one unless you have statistical data to support it...
The only way you could make such a claim would be to take two countries that are the exact same and have death penalty in one while no death penalty in the other and then compare, but to compare different countries ???
Heck you cant even compare states within the USA coz they're too damn different...
FYI the murder capital of America is Chicago (and there is no death penalty in Chicago), however this fact alone is useless just like Norway fact is...
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Enough with this bullsnow. The explanation "It was his choice to let me kill him" is just so dumb I can't even describe it. This murderer is also a human and if you don't want to accept his humanity because he made some mistakes or maybe even big mistakes, there's clearly something wrong with you.
Made some mistakes ? Making a mistake is hitting your car while trying to park mine, snatching a child, torturing it and then killing it is not a mistake buddy, its a firm decision one makes, a choice for which one must be held accountable.
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What if a murderer said to you that his victim made him to kill him because of his own code? Would you accept that? If not, then you're just a hypocrite.
If the said murderer gives his victim a choice, a reasonable choice to avoid dying then sure, I accept that, a reasonable choice would be - a choice the victim is fully aware of, a choice which allows the victim to avoid death via simpla choice.
Example - If you date my daughter I will kill you, If I understand you're being serious I am fully aware of the risks and its my choice to expose myself or not, to the possibilty of dying, it is my choice, I accept that...
However if the victim is not aware of it, like my type is little blonde girls who wear pink shirts, little girl had no idea she was "the type", she had no choice, she was just a victim...
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Do you even read what I posted? No one here wants to release a murderer after few months. Resocialization takes years, not months.
The rest of your post for me is just horrific. I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't want to talk with you about value of human's life because that would be just pointless due to my lack of professionalism.
There is no such a thing as value of a human life in this equation, ask serial killer about how much they valued the lives of their victims. All this pus*ified mentality where one blames the society, bad parents, environment and everything except the murderer himself is just stupid, its meant for people like you to feel like there are no monsters in the world, well how about thinking a bit more about the victims and a bit less about the people who made them into victims?
Things are not all that complexed - 1000 children get molested and only one of them turns into a serial killer and he does so due to choices he's made, all people should be judged by the decisions they make and if those decisions land them on death row, just zzip them and be over with their pathetic existence that brings nothing but pain to this world.
You reap what you sow, its that simple, do what you gotta do but dont complain about the consequences coz you were fully aware of them just like everybody else..
So many children around starving and you wanna spend resources on the re-socialization of mass murderers, talking about demented priorities...
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 09:24 PM |
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Hobbit, I'm not arguing for capital punishment, but for some kind of punishment. Suppose there were no punishment for murder. Do you think the homicide rate would be higher, lower, or the same, compared to its current level?
As for unemployment benefits, see here, they do affect incentives in the way one would expect.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 24, 2014 09:39 PM |
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If laws are the only thing keeping people from murdering each other then we live in a stark world indeed.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 24, 2014 09:42 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor said:
If laws are the only thing keeping people from murdering each other then we live in a stark world indeed.
Give this one a try 
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 09:43 PM |
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fred79 said:
do you think it is right to give a foreign national the death penalty for something they did while in a different country? do you think that if a foreign national is treated as a citizen in a positive manner while they live in a foreign country, should they be treated negatively if they do something wrong by that same country?
do you think this foreign national was wrongfully executed, or rightfully executed?
what do you think about the immigration policies currently carried out in the u.s., as well as other countries?
(the more specific version)
i think we've covered the morality aspect of capital punishment. but i was specifically talking about foreign nationals, domestic nationals, and immigration laws.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 10:55 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 22:57, 24 Jan 2014.
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Salamandre said:
My grammar correcter says resocialization word does not exist.
See for yourself.
Salamandre said:
Fact is that we don't know how to "resocialize" criminals, we don't even know what triggers their unusual behavior, we know nothing about.
Scandinavia.
smithey said:
How you reckon that ? You cant compare different countries and claim that death penalty or lack of it is a cause for anything, the notion is a rather laughable one unless you have statistical data to support it...
Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
smithey said:
Making a mistake is hitting your car while trying to park mine, snatching a child, torturing it and then killing it is not a mistake buddy
This decision is a mistake.
smithey said:
If the said murderer gives his victim a choice, a reasonable choice to avoid dying then sure, I accept that
So you say that if a murderer wants me to give him all my family money or else I'll die, and I choose not to give this money to him, then he shouldn't be sentenced for killing me?
smithey said:
There is no such a thing as value of a human life in this equation, ask serial killer about how much they valued the lives of their victims
In that case I don't really care about serial killer's opinion since he's going to be resocialized. I care, however, about normal citizen's opinion, that is yours. If you don't value a human life "because something", then there's definitely something wrong with you.
smithey said:
So many children around starving and you wanna spend resources on the re-socialization of mass murderers, talking about demented priorities...
Again: Scandinavia.
Yes, in Europe it does work, folks. Check some photos from prisons in Norway, Germany, Sweden... To compare with other continents, in Japan it's a little bit different because they are already minimalists, but still - all of them are really comfortable prisons which for many people from other countries are ridiculous. They do, however, manage to lower the crime rate. That's actually because of this resocialization in these prisons I've been talking about. It's because prisoners are presented the way they can live if they just change their lives. They're not really that harmed by this sentence, but rather given the opportunity to change their lifes for better.
mvassilev said:
Hobbit, I'm not arguing for capital punishment, but for some kind of punishment.
Okay, I didn't understand then. There has to be some kind of punishment, but this punishment should be mostly a resocialization.
mvassilev said:
As for unemployment benefits, see here
Have you checked my link? The University of Edinburgh proved something else recently, last year in fact, and you're opposing to that with a book from 1990. I'm taking Edinburgh's side.
***
With that said, it's true that it's a little bit offtopic right now. I just wanted to explain several things. I felt that I had to.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 24, 2014 11:38 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 23:50, 24 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Agreed, you must be extremely ignorant to compare apples with dogs...
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So you say that if a murderer wants me to give him all my family money or else I'll die, and I choose not to give this money to him, then he shouldn't be sentenced for killing me?
Dont kill people and you wont be killed is not the same choice as give me everything your family ownes and you wont be killed
The first one is easily avoidable, the second one is almost impossible to avoid..(I did use the phrase - reasonable choice)
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In that case I don't really care about serial killer's opinion since he's going to be resocialized. I care, however, about normal citizen's opinion, that is yours. If you don't value a human life "because something", then there's definitely something wrong with you.
Treat others as you want to be treated is what I believe in...
Show no respect for human life = your life is worthless too
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Again: Scandinavia.
Yes, in Europe it does work, folks. Check some photos from prisons in Norway, Germany, Sweden... To compare with other continents, in Japan it's a little bit different because they are already minimalists, but still - all of them are really comfortable prisons which for many people from other countries are ridiculous. They do, however, manage to lower the crime rate. That's actually because of this resocialization in these prisons I've been talking about. It's because prisoners are presented the way they can live if they just change their lives. They're not really that harmed by this sentence, but rather given the opportunity to change their lifes for better.
Do you have a proof that crime rates have been reduced by this so called working system ?
Let me explain again the concept of cause and effect - A causes B, A and B existing within society doesnt prove one causes the other directly, as it doesnt take into consideration plenty of other variables such as economy, culture, mentality, etc
Example - Singapore has death penalty for drug trafficking and guess what, drug related offenses went down by huge numbers since people started losing their head, also Singapore has one of the lowest prevalence of drug abuse worldwide !!!
Numbers speak for themselves -
8.2% of the UK population are cannabis abusers; in Singapore it is 0.005%. For ecstasy, the figures are 1.8% for the UK and 0.003% for Singapore; and for opiates – such as heroin, opium and morphine – 0.9% for the UK and 0.005% for Singapore
Its a system that works, and this one actually shows cause and effect coz since it has been implemented the numbers went down by a lot...
Can you show the same cause and effect for Scandinavia ?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 24, 2014 11:56 PM |
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I think the problem is pragmatic mainly: should we use the limited resources we have to a) hypothetically "resocialize" people who choose harm others, or b) use those resources to help our youths to create a better future for others. in sum create a legacy.
For a), there is nothing less sure it works, and is VERY costly. Your examples of Scandinavia prove nothing, low crime rate can be due to specific race behavior and secularly cultural environment as well. Besides, Sweden is still the capital of the rape, but very low on homicide. Norway produced Breivik, the worst mass killer in recent history.
Only a radical change in countries like US would probably be relevant if it works or no.
For b) there are no possible arguments against. For me personally the choice is quickly made.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 11:56 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 00:06, 25 Jan 2014.
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I already showed you several statistics with sources, you actually gave me no source at all - just some numbers that actually don't say much. If you were a drug abuser and there would be a death penalty for drug trafficking, would you risk dealing with police and admitting to someone that you do drugs? Because I know I wouldn't, no matter how addicted to heroin would I be.
smithey said:
Dont kill people and you wont be killed is not the same choice as give me everything your family ownes and you wont be killed
The first one is easily avoidable, the second one is almost impossible to avoid..
The second one is easily avoidable too - you just give him everything your family owns. It's the same logic.
smithey said:
Treat others as you want to be treated is what I believe in...
Show no respect for human life = your life is worthless too
So all who give death o murderers should also get killed.
But well, if you need to call me an ignorant for no apparent reason, then I'm afraid this discussion is just pointless... Maybe you should just start to show respect to others and then we can talk like normal people.
Salamandre said:
Your examples of Scandinavia prove nothing, low crime rate can be due to specific race behavior and secularly cultural environment as well. Besides, Sweden is still the capital of the rape, but very low on homicide. Norway produced Breivik, the worst mass killer in recent history.
The whole crime rate, especially when it comes to people who already were in prison, is still lower than in other countries. And saying that "it can be due to specific race behaviour" is just an excuse for not doing anything with wrong system.
Breivik is an extremist, people like that actually can happen in every country. In Poland we had some terrorist who wanted to blow up the whole Polish parliament, in USA there was James Eagan Holmes, also known as "Joker killer". We can't really prevent that, we can, however, make these people regular citizens instead of murderers. In Norway it actually works, I already explained that. Also, homicide rate in Norway is very low anyway.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted January 25, 2014 12:15 AM |
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All you do is speculate. To have scientific and validated results, a country as US should metamorphose from death penalty level to "club med" prisons then study the effects over several centuries.
And I don't think you realize how costly is to create "resocializing" environment around criminals. Also, there is an issue left: why would thy worth such commune effort? Human Life is respect-worth only when you make good usage of this unique gift.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 25, 2014 12:24 AM |
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Edited by smithey at 00:28, 25 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
I already showed you several statistics with sources, you actually gave me no source at all - just some numbers that actually don't say much. If you were a drug abuser and there would be a death penalty for drug trafficking, would you risk dealing with police and admitting to someone that you do drugs? Because I know I wouldn't, no matter how addicted to heroin would I be.
No, you just showed "Here is a list of countries by incarceration rate. Compare e.g. Poland, Russia, Belarus or Ukraine, where "justice = revenge" logic is pretty common (not speaking about USA or Cuba...), with e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Norway, Sweden or Japan, where people know that the punishment is actually resocializing people. Draw conclusions for yourself."
In that same table African countries have better score than Sweden, Finland, etc - which means those stats prove nothing...
Drug abusers dont approach police anywhere in the world, what are you talking about ? Those numbers are from drug arrests, just like in every country, you cant really conceal drug abuse, there are tests you know...
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The second one is easily avoidable too - you just give him everything your family owns. It's the same logic.
I dont have access to everything my family ownes, hence impossible choice...
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So all who give death o murderers should also get killed.
No, I said if you kill someone for self gain (fun, money, whatever) you have no value for his life hence your life is deemed worthless, guys who execute murderers dont gain sh*t, matter of fact there is no way of knowing who executes the murderer - 5 guys pull the switch, only one is actually killing him, nobody knows nor ever will know which one of the five did the killing...
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But well, if you need to call me an ignorant for no apparent reason, then I'm afraid this discussion is just pointless... Maybe you should just start to show respect to others and then we can talk like normal people.
Actually its you who used ignorance first, when all I did was to try and explain to you that you cant compare Norway with California for example, as two places are not even remotely comparable...
I think the problem is you dont understand the concept of cause and effect hence think that if in Sweden crime rate is 2% its coz they have a different approach to jails, when the fact is that crime rate in Sweden wouldnt change even if tomorrow they were to implement death penalty, coz there is no cause and effect between the two variables at all...
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 12:33 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 00:34, 25 Jan 2014.
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This discussion is just nonsense... You don't even try to think about what I'm trying to say, and you give no statistics, just twist everything around. I just hope your countries' governments understand or will understand that putting people into obscure jails where the worst criminals are leaders isn't the best way to prevent crime. And I hope YOU will understand that human's life is valuable no matter who's the "owner" of this life.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 25, 2014 12:59 AM |
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Edited by smithey at 01:13, 25 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
This discussion is just nonsense... You don't even try to think about what I'm trying to say, and you give no statistics, just twist everything around. I just hope your countries' governments understand or will understand that putting people into obscure jails where the worst criminals are leaders isn't the best way to prevent crime. And I hope YOU will understand that human's life is valuable no matter who's the "owner" of this life.
Bro, what statistics would you want ? It is well known that Singapore has the lowest drug problem in the entire region which is infested with drugs, google it and you'll see..
I know what you're trying to say, you think that since crime rates in Scandinavia are lower it has smth to do with prison system implemented in those countries when in fact it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the culture, economy, weapons available, drugs, gangs, etc.
Those conditions dont exist in the rest of the world, those conditions cant be achieved in the rest of the world and you cant possibly compare two different worlds.
People catch children, sell them as sex slaves, see them as nothing more but merchandise, steal their lives, and you think you can teach those people what empathy is, train a predator to be a kitten, fix a serial killer as if there is a fix for being a psychopath (heck you'll get a nobel prize if you find such a fix), sure, every human life is valuable.. but not really
I dont know where you're from or how old you are, but I promise you that you have never exposed yourself to the dark side of the humanity nor to different cultures in true capacity, Im sure your beliefs derive from you not knowing anything else or just knowing them from afar (like news/movies), hopefully you will never be exposed to real things coz life is peachy where you're at...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 02:06 AM |
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Hobbit said:
If you were a drug abuser and there would be a death penalty for drug trafficking, would you risk dealing with police and admitting to someone that you do drugs? Because I know I wouldn't, no matter how addicted to heroin would I be.
i don't think you really understand the nature of heroin, hobbit. 
regardless, you gentlemen are just arguing. and you're not even arguing about the topic anymore. i know this is the osm, but come on, 2 pages of this already, and there's only 3 in this thread right now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 01:39 PM |
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I don't really see the point in having people sit around in prison for years and years. I could easily see it being economically beneficial, not costly in the long-term, for criminals to "resocialise". I mean, it's better if people are doing something for the betterment of society like working instead of doing nothing in prison. The aim of prisons should not be for people to sit there for an arbitrary amount of years, but for them to sit there untill they can be considered able to return to a life without crime.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 02:54 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 14:56, 27 Jan 2014.
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xerox said:
The aim of prisons should not be for people to sit there for an arbitrary amount of years, but for them to sit there untill they can be considered able to return to a life without crime.
lol, and xerox doesn't know the nature of prisons. ever wonder why they're called con men? no, it's not short for "convicts". that's just a popular misconception.
oh yeah. immigration laws and their effects on the societies that spawn them. discuss.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 04:27 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:38, 27 Jan 2014.
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Then what is the nature, or purpose, of prisons???
In my opinion their purpose is to keep criminals from committing more crimes. If there are strong reasons to believe that they wouldn't do that as free individuals then I see no point in infringing on their liberty by keeping them locked in.
As for immigration, one of the greatest goals of the 21st century should be to gradually achieve universal free migration (the free movement within the EU is a first step). I think it's very important that people, no matter their nationalty, should have real opportunities to escape poverty and oppression. That is way more important than states having the right to keep people from realising their dreams and ambitions.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2014 04:48 PM |
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It's worth mentioning that prisons can have a desocializing effect, by putting criminals around other criminals (so they can absorb criminal norms from each other) as well as removing them from the workforce for some number of years (which makes it harder to get a job).
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