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| Thread: Immigration policies and their effect on foreign and domestic nationals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2014 11:04 PM |
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It also does not work like "if the criminal behaviour does not change it's pointless to execute any form of punishment."
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 11:13 PM |
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You simplified it too much, artu. If someone's behaviour doesn't change after resocialization and he still commits crimes, we have to give him resocialization again.
Problem begins when we can't do that because this guy goes back to his homeland where it's legal to do such crimes. Wouldn't resocializing foreigners from their own laws be a little bit rude? 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 11:23 PM |
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It should also depend on the crime, right? Deportation for stealing a candy bar is too much, deportation for mass murder isn't enough.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2014 11:27 PM |
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Indeed (although I wouldn't be so sure about "isn't enough" thing), I explained it already in my former posts.
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Horn of the
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 23, 2014 11:33 PM |
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Hobbit said:
If someone's behaviour doesn't change after resocialization and he still commits crimes, we have to give him resocialization again.
Really? So what you would retort to the new victims family: excuse him, we will teach him once again to remain polite and not stab/rape anything two legged around? I hope you were joking because those are damnt serious things and consequences.
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Era II mods and utilities
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 23, 2014 11:36 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 00:56, 24 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
smithey said:
I dont care about you, you're a criminal
That's not how justice works. It's just your emotions, not justice.
First of all, me not caring about criminals is not emotions, but actually a lack of (empathy and such) second of all that is exactly how justice works - actions have consequences, we are all aware of them..
Justice is not about fixing people (thats just a sidenote).
Back when a bunch of white rich dudes were talking philosophy (John Locke, Kant, etc...) and discussing human rights, governments etc, they deduced that the main reason for creating a country is to provide safety for its citizens, freedom to not be killed, freedom to own stuff without someone stealing it, etc (major ones discussed).
To be a citizen you give up some of your freedoms (pay taxes, serve in the army, dont break the law, etc) to get "rights", justice is the cornerstone (at least one of them).
The moment me, John, Dave dont feel like justice has been served, we no longer feel safe, we feel like gov' is not holding its end of the deal, we no longer feel the need to hold ours -> equilibrium is gone...
Thats what justice serves, keeping us in check, providing a sense of safety, fairness, without it - no balance and anarchy...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 23, 2014 11:46 PM |
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Actually, that line of reasoning (give up freedom to guarantee safety) is Hobbes rather than Locke or Kant but, yes indeed, valid point.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 24, 2014 12:09 AM |
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Named them only as representatives of the team - "rich white dudes talking philosophy".... It doesnt really matter who wrote the "first" book on the subject, they all shared similar views and argued over them into oblivion, Descartes was probably talking about a similar version of it before Hobbes as did Aristotle long before the French..
Its a long-a*s discussion thats still going on today... Bored bastar*s
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 12:13 AM |
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I don't really see why should that logic opposed to what I say about giving people another chance...
Seriously guys, why would resocialization take away your safety by any meanings? And what's up with this "anarchy" crap?
Salamandre said:
Really? So what you would retort to the new victims family: excuse him, we will teach him once again to remain polite and not stab/rape anything two legged around?
Um... Yes. Although that's rather primitive interpretation of justice, that's actually how it works. If not that, we just have pure emotions which have nothing to do with real justice, even if we want to mix them.
Here is a list of countries by incarceration rate. Compare e.g. Poland, Russia, Belarus or Ukraine, where "justice = revenge" logic is pretty common (not speaking about USA or Cuba...), with e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Norway, Sweden or Japan, where people know that the punishment is actually resocializing people. Draw conclusions for yourself.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 12:18 AM |
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Correlation is not causation. There are many other differences between the two groups of countries that can (and do) affect criminality.
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Eccentric Opinion
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 24, 2014 12:28 AM |
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Hobbit said:
I don't really see why should that logic opposed to what I say about giving people another chance...
Seriously guys, why would resocialization take away your safety by any meanings? And what's up with this "anarchy" crap?
Coz if you shoplift, get into a fight or smth on a small scale, sure you deserve a second chance, but if you rape and kill little kids (which is obviously dead wrong to do, and everybody knows it but you chose to do it anyway) then most normal people dont want you to have a second chance, most normal people would rather see you "extracted" from the society forever to prevent even the smallest chance of you going back to raping&killing little kids...
You make your own choices, live with them (the consequences of your actions) as opposed to making me live with them, its that simple.
I do understand that you believe in people and wanna change them or whatever, its just that I think the notion is beyond naive and most of people feel like me, frankly, we just wanna get rid of them, and if I ever go on a killing spree I dont wanna be given a second chance either...
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 02:13 AM |
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mvassilev said:
Correlation is not causation. There are many other differences between the two groups of countries that can (and do) affect criminality.
Of course, but that still means a lot.
smithey said:
but if you rape and kill little kids (which is obviously dead wrong to do, and everybody knows it but you chose to do it anyway) then most normal people dont want you to have a second chance, most normal people would rather see you "extracted" from the society forever to prevent even the smallest chance of you going back to raping&killing little kids...
And that's what's not normal in these "most normal people". They're taking law emotionally while the whole reason the law exists is to give people some rational and objective code instead of pure emotions. We have paragraphs and rules which are known to everyone so that there would be no explanation for releasing anger towards criminal or even lynching.
That's why I will probably never understand why there are still countries where death penalty exists. I understand that there could be people who wants it (which is still morally incorrect for me), but the idea of government accepting such rule is beyond my comprehension...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 02:51 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 03:32, 24 Jan 2014.
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@ hobbit: really? ok, hypothetical scenario:
you have a child with your wife. you both love and cherish that child. that child, indeed, is one of the very reasons you live. and someone(foreign or no) comes along and cuts your child into pieces. he then proceeds to rape, kill, and eat pieces of your wife(your second reason for living), all while making you watch, just to traumatize you, because it is a game to them. that person then lets you live, so that you may be traumatized for the rest of your life. this kind of person does this repeatedly to more people than you. they take advantage of a system that "cares", and "upholds the law, unbiased by personal emotion". they thrive on such "understanding" and "civility".
are you really going to tell all of us that you would want to see this person taught that they could be a good, functioning member of society, instead of having that person executed before they do any further horrible deeds? take a little time to picture this little scenario, and let yourself get involved in it, before answering.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 24, 2014 03:05 AM |
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@hobbit
I am against the death penalty, too and it's non-existent in most of the developed countries, anyway. That's not the issue, what you're saying is much more extreme, what you're saying is, any punishment that is not intended to correct the criminal is a wrong punishment by principle. I do think to try to rehabilitate people, to a certain point is a sensible, good cause. However a)It doesn't have to be everybody's concern and intention and b)it is not the core of law and punishment. At least in harsher cases.
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 24, 2014 09:04 AM |
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Edited by smithey at 09:05, 24 Jan 2014.
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Hobbit said:
And that's what's not normal in these "most normal people". They're taking law emotionally while the whole reason the law exists is to give people some rational and objective code instead of pure emotions. We have paragraphs and rules which are known to everyone so that there would be no explanation for releasing anger towards criminal or even lynching.
That's why I will probably never understand why there are still countries where death penalty exists. I understand that there could be people who wants it (which is still morally incorrect for me), but the idea of government accepting such rule is beyond my comprehension...
Person X rapes and kills kids.
The most rational thing one can do is to "extract" X from the society (whether its by killing him or locking him up forever), why is it rational ? Coz by letting him back into the society you are giving him a chance of harming more people.
Get rid of him forever and prevent him from harming anyone else in the future or give him a second chance while exposing other innocent people to a possibly horrid fate..
The choice is clear to me and its based on pure logic as opposed to on emotions, anger, revenge, whatever..
Animal that has tasted human flesh, you put it down to prevent it from doing so again, it is not about revenge, its a logical thing to do....
Law exists to protect law abiding citizens and not to fix criminals
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Sandman
Known Hero
Fearsome Warrior
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posted January 24, 2014 02:27 PM |
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smithey said:
Person X rapes and kills kids.
The most rational thing one can do is to "extract" X from the society (whether its by killing him or locking him up forever), why is it rational ? Coz by letting him back into the society you are giving him a chance of harming more people.
Get rid of him forever and prevent him from harming anyone else in the future or give him a second chance while exposing other innocent people to a possibly horrid fate..
The choice is clear to me and its based on pure logic as opposed to on emotions, anger, revenge, whatever..
Animal that has tasted human flesh, you put it down to prevent it from doing so again, it is not about revenge, its a logical thing to do....
Law exists to protect law abiding citizens and not to fix criminals
Totally agree, well said! 
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 02:35 PM |
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fred79 said:
are you really going to tell all of us that you would want to see this person taught that they could be a good, functioning member of society, instead of having that person executed before they do any further horrible deeds?
Judging isn't about what I, victim, want. But yes, first thing I want for him is to make him a better man. Of course I would probably want to kill him in the first place, but I definitely know that's not how this case should be solved.
artu said:
it is not the core of law and punishment.
I don't really see why. I'm already fed up with all these punishments which are only about harming the criminal. What's the point, really? We're only releasing our anger, giving these people as harsh judgement as possible, and we're no better than these criminals themselves. In Scandinavian countries they have no problems with resocialization, why would we be worse?
smithey said:
Get rid of him forever and prevent him from harming anyone else in the future or give him a second chance while exposing other innocent people to a possibly horrid fate..
Anders Breivik was sentenced to containment with a time frame of 21 years (and minimum time of 10 years). Norwegians, however, don't feel "exposed to a possibly horrid fate". They accept this sentence.
Varg Vikernes was a Norwegian black metal musician. He arsoned at least three Christian churches and killed Mayhem's (another metal band) guitarist. He was sentenced to 21 years in prison, but after 15 years he was released on parole. Five years ago he settled in France with his family and now he just writes music, not doing any harm to anyone. Norwegians weren't against it.
I'm not saying that prisons shouldn't also be about preventing people from doing more harm, but the main reason they exist should be to make normal citizens from these criminals. In e.g. Poland people who go to jail are put in an environment which is making them often even worse criminals after they are released. It's about punishment, not resocialization, and that's why it doesn't work so well.
Death penalty isn't something logical, it's just crime. We can't decide of other man's life permanently even if this man has already decided of someone else's life. It's pure revenge, there are no other explanations for that if we already have a better and, most important, working solution. It's like if we break someone's arm to prevent him from stealing even though we know how to immobilize him in less harsh and still good way - the only reason we would do that is to give him a pain, and I'm sure that's not what law should be about.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 06:46 PM |
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Hobbit said:
I'm already fed up with all these punishments which are only about harming the criminal. What's the point, really?
I agree that punishment shouldn't be based on retribution, but that doesn't mean it's unjust altogether. Punishment as such need not be about the specific criminal, but about crime in general - e.g. there should be a punishment for murder not because punishing the murderer will bring back the victim, not because punishing him makes the rest of us feel better, but because it lets would-be murderers know that this is the penalty that they'd face if they'd commit murder (and would be caught).
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 07:13 PM |
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 24, 2014 07:48 PM |
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Hobbit said:
Death penalty isn't something logical, it's just crime. We can't decide of other man's life permanently even if this man has already decided of someone else's life. It's pure revenge, there are no other explanations for that if we already have a better and, most important, working solution. It's like if we break someone's arm to prevent him from stealing even though we know how to immobilize him in less harsh and still good way - the only reason we would do that is to give him a pain, and I'm sure that's not what law should be about.
We have a working system ? Whats going on in Norway is a working system coz it turned around a few people, lol, thats a good one, I've got a working system too, its called the chair, you place a serial killer on it and he never harms another soul, works like charm in 100% of the cases, we've had zero zombie serial killers...
I just love how all you anti-death penalty guys take the criminal out of the equation as if he were just some random innocent lamb who by mistake got there...
We cant decide on other man's life, wait what ? We really are not making decisions on his life, the choice is his and only his.
You see, I've told you hobbit "snatch a child, rape it, kill it and you'll get executed for it", you understood the consequances of such vile act and that it will lead to your death, yet you CHOSE to go ahead and do it anyway. I didnt hold a gun to your head nor forced your hand into anything, it was all you, the way I see it - jump of the cliff and die or kill a child and die, reasonable enough for me, either way its your choice coz you are the product of the decisions you make, its that simple...
Not only would I increase the number of death penalties but I would also eliminate the endless appealing and vast tax dollars spent on those vile criminals, if you're a serial/mass killer/murderer just zzip and done with you forever... And its really easy to avoid death penalty too, just dont kill people, extremely easy to do, if you cant do it, zzip and we're done with your ass.
I dont really care about the vilest of animals our society has to offer, matter of fact unlike you Im more concerned with their past and future victims than with the silly notion that everyone is redeemable.
I've seen the monstrosities people are capable of, seen them show zero remorse and I dont want to redeem them, they're just broken animals who need to be put down, there are more than enough people around deserving of our help, wasting it on the vilest of criminals is just that a waste of time, resources. You can sit behind your computer all you want and make naive claims about people coz you've never been touched by anything or you could go and meet real people, like victims of vile crimes, surviving family members, hear about the horrors or even meet serial killers via various programs, spend some time in real world and then tell victims how everyone deserves a second chance coz having monsters re-inserted will make the society a better place.
Just do it, and after you're done talking to the family of the child whos killer just got released a few months back (coz he deserved a second chance), come back to us and preach about your "working solution"...
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