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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 17, 2014 08:41 PM |
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Joonas, actually national guard is not a new force. Internal troops were reformed into national guard, so a lot of them (30k) are regular forces. It is completely different question whether Ukraine can rely on them based on what they did in February. Original idea was to create this for Self-Defence organization, whose activists wanted to take active part in defending Ukraine. But now after some of them entered national quard, they are dissappoined as they thought, they will be trained by army, not police. So now there is a mutual hate inside national guard between old internal troops and new self-defence activists. A lot of activists stated they will leave national guard soon, if nothing changes. This whole idea of national guard in such structure looks very unreliable. But I don't think they are going to be a cannon fodder in case of war. This obviously depends on the decisions of generals, but I am confident they will not decide to attack Crimea to take it back by force. National guard's main task is to support order in Eastern regions of Ukraine and helping army to defend borders in case of future Russia's aggression to mainland of Ukraine (Ukraine's army is already there in Eastern regions, I witnessed military machines departing from my home city two weaks ago). I don't think Russia is going to attack, though.
Baklava, unfortunately you are right, technically there is no border between Ukraine and Russia, and we can't stop movement of tanks. But will they attack? I don't think so. I have a feeling that Putin became a little bit more careful with his actions so that not to call additional sanctions on his colleagues and Russia itself. Crimea is number one now, then in Eastern regions they can continue their provocations and watch the reaction of Ukraine and Western countries.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 18, 2014 11:21 AM |
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this whole crap in a nutshell
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 01:51 PM |
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Recent months, or even years the words LEGAL and LEGITIMATE in Ukraine are by far the most popular words which mean NOTHING.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 18, 2014 02:23 PM |
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I'm sorry, Kipshasz, but random pictures are not satisfactory proof or disproof for a complex affair like Krimean crisis.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 02:58 PM |
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interesting to take a look at some detailed maps. so Sebastopol is the only russian military port in the black sea. I thought there may have been another one on the russian coast, but it seems not (at least there wasn't in 2006) so if you remove it, they lose a military naval access to Europe.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted March 18, 2014 03:10 PM |
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I'm sorry Warmonger, but your inability to understand political jokes is a problem as well.
here's another good one.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 18, 2014 03:42 PM |
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The Alaska one was hilarious but the other one was just shallow. I just heard that apparently, that vote in Crimea resulted in 97% for joining Russia. Sounds legit lol... 
They did not even need to scare away nay-voters or fake the results as they would still have gotten a clear positive result. Now they just look bad to the rest of the world and Crimea will be on Russian life-support.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 18, 2014 04:46 PM |
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GunFred, funny or not, these pictures do have some point. The EU/US position is a joke itself, considering that Ukraine de facto still has a president who neither resigned, nor was removed in a lawful way, but they consider the new government (+ the acting president) fully legitimate and negotiate only with it. In the light of the Kosovo precedent, all claims that what happened in Crimea is illegal are also just a display of double standards. In the end, the nonsense that Russia uses to justify its position is equal to the nonsense coming from the EU/US. That's how politics work.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 18, 2014 05:14 PM |
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kipshasz said:
this whole crap in a nutshell
Yes, and the US/EU are correct.
What was happening in Ukraine was an internal affair up until Russian soldiers invaded. Obviously outsiders had a vested interest and somewhat of an influence in what was going on, but welcome to Earth. If you don't like even passive foreign influence through politics and media, then pack up your **** and beam yourself out of the solar system, because that exists everywhere. BUT, the riots, protests, and ousting was still conducted and sustained by Ukrainians against other Ukrainians. Russia changed that, not Western countries.
Why must America be constantly victimized by belligerent countries that disrespect its sovereignty of Earth 
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 18, 2014 05:22 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
What was happening in Ukraine was an internal affair up until Russian soldiers invaded.
I think it's a drawback of regarding every person in a country as a private part of the country (could be worded a lot better). E.g. if someone "innocent" (to use a typical american expression ) gets in the crossfire of each part of the internal business, the "outside world" won't come to their aid, because in their eyes, these "innocent bystanders" are part of the country and what goes on there is a private matter.
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Living time backwards
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 18, 2014 05:26 PM |
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Right, and I do not adopt that kind of isolationism, because the world is an interconnected community, but in fairness, I don't think what was happening in Ukraine came close to meriting UN intervention. Yes, there were some tragic deaths, and the inevitable uneasiness of a shift of government, but there wasn't a chaotic breakdown of the country.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 18, 2014 05:29 PM |
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To be honest I don't know what exactly has went down, so I'm not the one to point fingers *puts finger back where it belongs*, I do think what's going on in the world is a bit ironic sometimes, and I'll point fingers at that *goes washes his finger and points it*
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Living time backwards
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 18, 2014 06:02 PM |
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Zenofex said:
GunFred, funny or not, these pictures do have some point. The EU/US position is a joke itself, considering that Ukraine de facto still has a president who neither resigned, nor was removed in a lawful way, but they consider the new government (+ the acting president) fully legitimate and negotiate only with it. In the light of the Kosovo precedent, all claims that what happened in Crimea is illegal are also just a display of double standards. In the end, the nonsense that Russia uses to justify its position is equal to the nonsense coming from the EU/US. That's how politics work.
The west does not generally have an issue with protests against governments and lawfully or not, the old president has himself to blame for being overthrown which he deserved. And the west's/world's outrage is not about Crimea illeagally seperating from Ukraine. It is about Russia's shameless actions and complete disregard for international law that is causing it. If not for Russia, Crimea could have been given the chance to seperate in a valid way, leagally or not.
Lastly, it is VERY wrong for Ukraine and Crimea to be judged by historical hypocracy from the west and Russia. Russia are the bad guys in this case but perhaps it would have been different if they had acted differently or later.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 18, 2014 06:09 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
Why must America be constantly victimized by belligerent countries that disrespect its sovereignty of Earth
That seems especially ironic, since a sentence before you were blaming Russia for interfering with Ukraine's internal affairs. Care to elaborate?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 06:35 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:36, 18 Mar 2014.
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Putin is presented as the bad guy. doesn't mean all the other guys aren't bad as well.
at least there is one country that has the power to oppose the USA and the guts to do it (well, a bit at least). if it were just for the UE, the USA could do everything damn well please them.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 18, 2014 08:07 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Russia in NATO? Not in this world. The existing
As for Crimea and Kosovo - from the international law's point of view the separation of Kosovo from Serbia is just as justified as an eventual separation of Crimea from Ukraine and Russia can use exactly the same arguments which the western countries used a few years back. One memorandum changes nothing, Russia will claim that it didn't annex Crimea but that Crimea decided to join it, which is just fine given the Kosovo precedent. What's legal and what's not plays a very little role here, international laws and agreements have been trampled too many times before to become important now out of a sudden.
Well, when you have a population in a country, which was opressed for years, and decides that "Screw it, no need to negotiate anymore with an oppressor" and unilateraly declares independence, its morally justified.
Crimea to russia is much more similar what balkan countries did in the 19th century and serbia during the last war.
Ukrainians and Russians ethnically, culturally and even linguistically the same people.
I cant point out a single thing what connection do Albanians have with any Slavic community in the balkans.
That said, Crimea is far more simmilar to Bosnia, Republika Srpska and Croatia.
I support the Crimean decision. If you dont want to live with or have anything to do with a corrupt goverment, feel free to declare independence or join russia or any other country.
The idea of a nation is outdated anyway but this statement could piss off to many people.
I feel the same about north cyprus,taiwan,tibet and other de facto countries.
What I would love to see all countries who want independence have independence. Maybe after they find out that its not that easy either to be independent, they could want to rejoin.
But then, I smell fascism in Russia. Chechenya wasnt lucky.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 18, 2014 08:10 PM |
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Quote:
The west does not generally have an issue with protests against governments and lawfully or not, the old president has himself to blame for being overthrown which he deserved. And the west's/world's outrage is not about Crimea illeagally seperating from Ukraine. It is about Russia's shameless actions and complete disregard for international law that is causing it. If not for Russia, Crimea could have been given the chance to seperate in a valid way, leagally or not.
But see, Russia is not disregarding international law. At all. It's simply interpreting it in a way that serves its interests, just like the Western countries did when they allowed Kosovo to separate from Serbia. The only thing it can be truly accused of in this regard is that it didn't withdraw its troops during the referendum to stage a real "choice" provided to the Crimeans. But would the interim government allow the referendum to happen in such case? Please! It wouldn't even risk with a nation-wide referendum, with the tension in the east.
Let's put the international (public) law aside, it's a real mess anyway and was never intended to be especially efficient when its core sentences were written (i.e. the UN Charter). Putin's idea here seems to be to create a lose-lose situation for the interim government and its Western proponents. Russia has already nearly annexed Crimea, it just needs to fulfil a few formalities. Its troops aren't leaving the peninsula just like that for the foreseeable future. At the same time, Eastern Ukraine doesn't seem to be peaceful at all and from Kremlin are basically waiting for the interim government to make a mistake to have an excuse for a full invasion. The sanctions against Russia - if they ever enter into force - will no doubt hurt it but at the same time Russia has created strong economic ties with the EU and does have the ability to enforce counter-sanctions which will hurt the EU in return. Maybe not as much, but provided its other issues at the moment, they might be just enough to increase the tension internally. Hence the main EU countries' hesitation to do something drastic. In the end, if neither of the sides does something really stupid, the whole thing will probably result in some "consensus" constitution/government for Ukraine and long-term guarantees that it will not become yet another NATO base.
Quote:
Lastly, it is VERY wrong for Ukraine and Crimea to be judged by historical hypocracy from the west and Russia. Russia are the bad guys in this case but perhaps it would have been different if they had acted differently or later.
This I completely agree with.
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 18, 2014 08:21 PM |
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Fauch said:
Putin is presented as the bad guy. doesn't mean all the other guys aren't bad as well.
at least there is one country that has the power to oppose the USA and the guts to do it (well, a bit at least). if it were just for the UE, the USA could do everything damn well please them.
Putin isnt the bad guy, he was a bad guy way back when he firstly became a rpesident.
You see, an ex-KGB agent, who is pursuing an imperial policy, cannot be considered a good guy.
The problem with russia is that its still stuck in the cold war. While america has its problems with its attitude and policy, I cant seem to fund any reason why russia, other than fascist powerplay, for why russia behaves so arrogantly.
Truth be told, more than 80% or more of the countries of this planet are underdeveloped snowholes with criminals on top, so its no wonder that we see the rise of the 18th century again.
I guess russia supporters are nothing but hypocrites, all accusing US politics yet just wanting russia to become USSR 2.0.
Russia is not, cant, become the next empire because its all agenda is based on right wing values and extremism. When putin dies, putin jr wont probably be so good, and it all falls appart.
The world does not need another empire, USA 2.0, USSR 2.0 or British Empire.
Oh and, before you see Russia or China as opponents of the US, you should not believe that China or Russia are beacons of secularism or progress.
Russia is heavily based on its orthodox church and china obviously is backing up countries such as Iran, North Korea.
And while the US is hypocritical and did support extremists many times, its not going anywhere up for the US.
The sheer presence of conservatives in the US makes it clear that its just another brainwashed country with lots of people who still, in the 21st century, believe in creationism..
Thats just pitiful.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 18, 2014 08:25 PM |
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artu said:
blizzardboy said:
Why must America be constantly victimized by belligerent countries that disrespect its sovereignty of Earth
That seems especially ironic, since a sentence before you were blaming Russia for interfering with Ukraine's internal affairs. Care to elaborate?
Did not notice it until you put it in black but it looks like a joke about how the USA acts as if it owns the world.
Fauch said:
Putin is presented as the bad guy. doesn't mean all the other guys aren't bad as well.
In this one case, Putin is a bad guy who completely dwarfs the other bad guys...
Zenofex said:
In the end, if neither of the sides does something really stupid, the whole thing will probably result in some "consensus" constitution/government for Ukraine and long-term guarantees that it will not become yet another NATO base.
Personally I find it hard to believe that the new Ukrainian government will not do everything it can to distance itself from Russia and gain a little pride back by joining EU and NATO. Perhaps if Russia were to give something back (not Crimea) to assure peace in the future they may be willing to go back to being more neutral.
seraphim said:
The world does not need another empire, USA 2.0, USSR 2.0 or British Empire.
Not even a Swedish Empire 2.0?!
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seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted March 18, 2014 08:35 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
The west does not generally have an issue with protests against governments and lawfully or not, the old president has himself to blame for being overthrown which he deserved. And the west's/world's outrage is not about Crimea illeagally seperating from Ukraine. It is about Russia's shameless actions and complete disregard for international law that is causing it. If not for Russia, Crimea could have been given the chance to seperate in a valid way, leagally or not.
But see, Russia is not disregarding international law. At all. It's simply interpreting it in a way that serves its interests, just like the Western countries did when they allowed Kosovo to separate from Serbia. The only thing it can be truly accused of in this regard is that it didn't withdraw its troops during the referendum to stage a real "choice" provided to the Crimeans. But would the interim government allow the referendum to happen in such case? Please! It wouldn't even risk with a nation-wide referendum, with the tension in the east.
Let's put the international (public) law aside, it's a real mess anyway and was never intended to be especially efficient when its core sentences were written (i.e. the UN Charter). Putin's idea here seems to be to create a lose-lose situation for the interim government and its Western proponents. Russia has already nearly annexed Crimea, it just needs to fulfil a few formalities. Its troops aren't leaving the peninsula just like that for the foreseeable future. At the same time, Eastern Ukraine doesn't seem to be peaceful at all and from Kremlin are basically waiting for the interim government to make a mistake to have an excuse for a full invasion. The sanctions against Russia - if they ever enter into force - will no doubt hurt it but at the same time Russia has created strong economic ties with the EU and does have the ability to enforce counter-sanctions which will hurt the EU in return. Maybe not as much, but provided its other issues at the moment, they might be just enough to increase the tension internally. Hence the main EU countries' hesitation to do something drastic. In the end, if neither of the sides does something really stupid, the whole thing will probably result in some "consensus" constitution/government for Ukraine and long-term guarantees that it will not become yet another NATO base.
Quote:
Lastly, it is VERY wrong for Ukraine and Crimea to be judged by historical hypocracy from the west and Russia. Russia are the bad guys in this case but perhaps it would have been different if they had acted differently or later.
This I completely agree with.
You guys cant probably believe in the fact that Nnobody in kosovo would have wanted to contunue to live with serbs. it would have continued to this day to be UN refugee camp like palestine, with constant serb bombing.
You see, the west never wanted 1.4 million immigrants to flee kosovo, so thats why they invaded.
I dont see crimeans being oppressed in ukraine.
you know, unbeknowst to you foreigners, Kosovo had no running institutions from 90 to 99. That 9 years of no schools, no work or no development being made in that area.
And sincerely, yugoslavia wasnt a democration union,but a dictatorship.
Its pretty morally justified to declare independence from a dictatorship.
If kosovo wasnt as pathetic as it is now, it would have been nice.
Deporting all foreigners,and people who do not recognize the legitimacy of the state and having one national language, like other countries around it.
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