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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 10:18 PM |
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Mvass, democracy isn't just majority rule, it's also legal equality and the recent use of the term includes much much more than "majority rule" Ignoring this very simple fact over and over again wont make it vanish away. Your definition is outdated, do your homework.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:22 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:24, 01 Mar 2014.
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Stevie said:
There is no "more mob rule" or "less mob rule". There is "mob rule" or "no mob rule". You can't quantify democracy, that's what I wanted to point out.
A country which lets a "mob" 51% kill the other 49% is more democratic than the country which prevents the "mob" from doing so, because the rule of the mob is restricted in the second country.
artu said:
The inclusivity of the word evolved in the other direction, for example, if in some under-developed country, the right of women to go to school is banned by majority rule, you will hear public statements such as this:
The spokes man said they see this as a serious violation of democratic rights and they will reconsider the prime ministers visit to XXX.
Yeah and that's the problem. Because while that may be true to a liberal democracy, it doesn't have anything to do with democracy in itself. The problem is that people just automatically take democracy as something that's always objectively good.
Zenofex:  on the first sentence atleast.
Quote:
(Xerox did not watch it because he is a traitor and part of the rebel alliance)
I watced and love the Melody Festival but want to privatize it:/
(it's our national selection for Eurovision)
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 01, 2014 10:22 PM |
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Zenofex said:
There's one incredibly wrong assumption that is the base of all mainstream propaganda that justifies all sorts of atrocities nowadays - that the current form of democracy in the Western countries is the ultimate form of social organisation that in every aspect is vastly superior to any other form of social organisation. There are even "scientific" studies that try to prove that nonsense (Fukuyama). This kind of thinking is dangerous because it's essentially very conservative, it's based on the logical fallacy that if one system is generally better than another, then any element of that system is better than any element of the other and this blocks all criticism of otherwise existing flaws.
Do not know too much about media in other countries but I do not think that many people think their current systems are the ultimate systems. But perhaps in countries where they are very good when compared to other countries, they do not feel the need to become even better than they currently are.
kayna said:
What the world really needs is a real way to deal with corruption, like politicians being followed 24 h day 4 years long with a camera crew that you can watch on tv or a vote to kill politicians instead of just impeaching them that would be initiated after x quantity of signatures ( hey totally arguable if your country has the death penalty somewhere ! ) or a law enforcement body that wouldn't be 100 % sucking cocks.
I think of TRANSPARENCY as the KEY to a corrupt free society. With modern technology, all the needed transparency is possible. The USA is a prime example of a nation that is effectively losing its democracy because it is becoming more and more secretive and shady.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:24 PM |
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artu said:
Mvass, democracy isn't just majority rule, it's also legal equality and the recent use of the term includes much much more than "majority rule"
Yes, it includes "yay!" as I said above. In modern use in Western countries, "democracy" just means "what I approve of" or "what I want". It must either mean majority rule or it's just an attitudinal expression.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 01, 2014 10:26 PM |
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Quote:
It's not definitely the ultimate as in Fukuyama's "end of civilization, that's it guys." but they are preferable to their contemporaries. Just look all around the world, where the rich send their children to school, it's always a very direct tool of observance.
The point is that any system can bog down while it admires itself and eventually turn into its opposite, just because it failed to notice its flaws and put too much emphasis on how superior it is to everything else. That has always been the starting point of any civilization's decadence.
No more off-topic from me... for today. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 10:28 PM |
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xerox said:
artu said:
The inclusivity of the word evolved in the other direction, for example, if in some under-developed country, the right of women to go to school is banned by majority rule, you will hear public statements such as this:
The spokes man said they see this as a serious violation of democratic rights and they will reconsider the prime ministers visit to XXX.
Yeah and that's the problem. Because while that may be true to a liberal democracy, it doesn't have anything to do with democracy in itself. The problem is that people just automatically take democracy as something that's always objectively good.
And that's where you and Mvass are completely off. Because, liberal democracies don't fall from the sky, they are the result of a progress and tradition. EVERY country which respects those liberal rights that you idealistically defend has a real history of democratic progress.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:28 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:43, 01 Mar 2014.
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fred79 said:
wow, you're smart. that's sarcasm, btw. you completely missed the point of my post.
Did I? I thought I was with you on that one... The one who misunderstood that is you, I was just emphasizing what you said. It was not intended at you personally, I was speaking about 'muricans in general. A population bred in ignorance.
Tell me though, how many of those things you actually knew before reading them?
And the last part about hailing democracy was clearly not alluding at you. There is.. another one here..
Xerox said:
A country which lets a "mob" 51% kill the other 49% is more democratic than the country which prevents the "mob" from doing so, because the rule of the mob is restricted in the second country.
A country that does not obey the will of the majority is not a democratic one in the first place. It's that simple.
Edit: Would you say then, that the country that doesn't let the mob rule is "less democratic"? Rather than "not democratic"?
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 01, 2014 10:30 PM |
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How about we let Wikipedia decide the definition of Democracy?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:36 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:41, 01 Mar 2014.
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artu said:
And that's where you and Mvass are completely off. Because, liberal democracies don't fall from the sky, they are the result of a progress and tradition. EVERY country which respects those liberal rights that you idealistically defend has a real history of democratic progress.
Who has ever said that liberal democracies just fall from the sky? The point is, democracy in itself is just some type of majority rule. There's nothing about democracy in itself that has anything to do with liberal rights. If the public in a democratic country decided to ban private property then that country wouldn't be any less democratic just because it abolished a fundamental liberal right. On the contrary, it would become more democratic because unlike in liberal democracies, private property wouldn't be protected from the general will.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 10:40 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:44, 01 Mar 2014.
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Quote:
Who has ever said that liberal democracies just fall from the sky?
xerox said:
Because while that may be true to a liberal democracy, it doesn't have anything to do with democracy in itself
Quote:
If the public in a democratic country decided to ban private property then that country wouldn't be any less democratic just because it abolished a fundamental liberal right.
In the modern sense of the word (which kind of became short for liberal democracy), it would. We don't all go to the forum and raise our hands anymore either, right. There is a tight causality between being able to have those rights and having a democratic regime, especially in the long run.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 10:54 PM |
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Quote:
In the modern sense of the word (which kind of became short for liberal democracy), it would
This is, again, the problem. Far from all democracies today are liberal democracies. Liberal democracy is not democracy, it is a democracy.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 11:00 PM |
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It is the result of a democratic progress. Not the end line as Zenofox already said, but a more evolved one compared to its prior forms. The point is democracy is both characteristic and crucial to the existence of those rights historically and politically.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 11:04 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:06, 01 Mar 2014.
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Crimea is invaded as of now btw. Russian soldiers surrounded their parliament, it is on TV.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:07 PM |
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Stevie said:
fred79 said:
wow, you're smart. that's sarcasm, btw. you completely missed the point of my post.
Did I? I thought I was with you on that one... The one who misunderstood that is you, I was just emphasizing what you said. It was not intended at you personally, I was speaking about 'muricans in general. A population bred in ignorance.
Tell me though, how many of those things you actually knew before reading them?
And the last part about hailing democracy was clearly not alluding at you. There is.. another one here..
sorry for getting upset, but when you use the phrase, "you guys", i think you're meaning that i am included. about americans being bred in ignorance, it isn't exactly their fault, although once they reach a certain age, they become partially to blame, because then, they should be knowledgeable enough to see the bull**** they've been taught since gradeschool. clearly, there are many people across the globe, who suffer from the same delusions. they think that, because they read something in a government-funded textbook, that that is an accurate representation of reality. it's not just the american public, and the u.s. government isn't solely to blame. the human race at large is. that's the point i was making. i apologize if i lashed out at you. i do that sometimes, and i tend to regret it afterward.
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted March 01, 2014 11:16 PM |
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artu said:
Crimea is invaded as of now btw. Russian soldiers surrounded their parliament, it is on TV.
snow hit the fan I suppose. I wonder if Ukraine will have the nerve to send their own troops as they said they would take it as an act of war. Would not want to be the first ukrainian soldier who opened fire if ordered to...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 11:20 PM |
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I dont read "government-funded texts" Fred, my opinion on the matter is quite different from the ideology of the state, as a matter of fact.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:20 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:26, 01 Mar 2014.
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artu said:
It is the result of a democratic progress. Not the end line as Zenofox already said, but a more evolved one compared to its prior forms. The point is democracy is both characteristic and crucial to the existence of those rights historically and politically.
What is "democratic progress" even?
I don't agree that all paths lead to a liberal democracy. Take Iran. It is one of the more developed countries in the Middle-East yet there's overwhelming public support for its islamic democracy. Then we have countries like China which does indeed have very little democratic progress, but also insignificant demand for implementing anything like a liberal democracy.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:24 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:29, 01 Mar 2014.
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fred79 said:
sorry for getting upset, but when you use the phrase, "you guys", i think you're meaning that i am included. about americans being bred in ignorance, it isn't exactly their fault, although once they reach a certain age, they become partially to blame, because then, they should be knowledgeable enough to see the bull**** they've been taught since gradeschool. clearly, there are many people across the globe, who suffer from the same delusions. they think that, because they read something in a government-funded textbook, that that is an accurate representation of reality. it's not just the american public, and the u.s. government isn't solely to blame. the human race at large is. that's the point i was making. i apologize if i lashed out at you. i do that sometimes, and i tend to regret it afterward.
Ah, no problem. Well, I must admit I'm to blame as well, because that phrase "you guys" was a tad ambiguous indeed. So, forgive me please.
And I couldn't agree with you more on "the human race at large is" to blame. Yea, it's exactly that.
Thing is that there are 2 types of ignorance. Willing and unwilling. You can't help the later one, it's just lack of knowledge which is understandable. But willing ignorance is when you find out the info and choose to ignore it. These kind of people just make me explode with anger.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 01, 2014 11:24 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:28, 01 Mar 2014.
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@Xerox
I didnt say democracy always succesfully evolves to liberal version, I said all the liberal versions reached there through democracy. And I wouldnt prefer to live in China as a regular citizen regarding to its regime.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2014 11:30 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:34, 01 Mar 2014.
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I wouldn't want to live in China either. But is shows you can be a modern, relatively "civilized" country without being anywhere close to a liberal democracy. Either way, it seems we can agree on that there are different types of democracy, even today?
On topic: I really hope to see the EU, which is in desperate, desperate need for a more common military and foreign policy, and the US take diplomatic action now. It might even be a good idea to threaten Russia with sanctions. I don't like the idea of having a Russia which feels it can just invade any of its neighbours without facing any opposition. I don't like it one bit.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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