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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 03, 2016 05:26 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:27, 03 Jul 2016.
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Elodin said:
The United States was not founded as a theocracy but it had a Christian founding. The vast majority of all of the colonists and founding fathers were Christians. Many of the founding fathers were ordained Christian ministers. So what some call a "fairy tale" founded a nation that while still young is the world's only superpower and nation that more people in the world want to immigrate to than any other. Quite the miracle.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”; “the laws of nature and of nature’s God”; “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world”; “reliance on the protection of divine Providence.” The aforementioned phrases are taken from the Declaration of Independence. The United States was clearly founded on a theistic world view and that world view was Christian
As I said, they were Christian about moral philosophy, however, they had a deistic cosmology not theistic. The difference is that in theism, God directly intervenes in daily affairs, where as in deism he just starts and determines "the order of the universe" and then silently sits back. Natural laws are the manifestation of God's order. Deists reject miracles in the biblical sense because it is against the very idea that God manifests himself in a rationally explainable universal order. “the laws of nature and of nature’s God” clearly hints at that. Or look at these quotes:
Benjamin Franklin after escaping a shipwreck:
“The bell ringing for church, we went thither immediately, and with hearts full of gratitude, returned sincere thanks to God for the mercies we had received. Were I a Roman Catholic, perhaps I should on this occasion vow to build a chapel to some saint; but as I am not, if I were to vow at all, it should be to build a light-house.”
Thomas Jefferson:
"...those who live by mystery & charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy, the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man, endeavored to crush your well earnt, & well deserved fame."
John Adams:
"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents."
"When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it."
Of course, you should keep in mind that the world of 1700's is not the world of 2016 and public figures, especially politicians can not present a too anti-religious stance. Especially not in some official document such as Declaration of Independence. (Although, I remember reading that the phrase "self-evident" replaced "sacred and undeniable" of the original draft because they thought "sacred" sounded too religious.) Another founding father, Thomas Paine was more aggressive against Christianity and he became a social outcast. One shouldn't be anachronic about social conditions of the day.
And when it comes to U.S. becoming a super-power, not to mention that is the 20th century, you are interpreting Western advancement in general, with a completely reversed perspective anyway. The West was Christian for centuries long before it become the world power, an the reason it could become a world power was not its religion, on the contrary, the reason was abandoning that religion to a certain degree. The West got ahead when secularism started to determine the law, when rationalism in philosophy replaced theology and gave gateway to scientific development, when education started to teach nature instead of myths. What was exceptional about Western culture during its rise is not its religion, there are many Christian African countries too, Eastern Europe is also Christian etc... No, it's how it limits the influence of that religion to the citizen's private life. And just like that, one of the most significant reasons of the Middle East's underdevelopment is they still don't have secular states, even in this age.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 03, 2016 05:53 PM |
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 03, 2016 06:55 PM |
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artu said:
No, it's how it limits.
Hogwash to all that biased rhetoric blasting...except the quotes however they were totally unnecessary to me or Elodin; as if all American Christians need to have Artu the Atheist in Turkey endlessly drone-on about what he thinks best "for all others" and if we don't agree...we need his rescue effort. E-gad man, what arrogant and self-centered dialogue you pump out. You will derail any thread that has ANY mention about people having Faith and exercising their freedom and then act like your are the World's spokesmen for what is correct.
I knew you would barrage the simple truth...that I have the right to pursue my life by beliefs I value and also knew you could not let that fact go. It is you and your like-minded believers that are on Verbal-Crusades today and carrying word-torches.
And taking the discussion away from the roots of THIS nation and making it about "The West" to make this focused FREEDOM discussion a highway for you to text-ramble is intended misdirection far away from the point of what matters for some of us today right here in the U.S. America's political system guarantees free-speech for everyone - not only i.e. atheists, gays, Arabs, Jews, men and women but Christians just as much as all the rest. Strip one group of their right to speak...you can strip ALL groups of their rights: "United we Stand divided we Fall".
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 03, 2016 07:07 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:19, 03 Jul 2016.
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artu said:
...the shallowness of his perspective.
Forgot this. Slippery and arrogant you are with judgment like that but keep it simple Artu...YOU SAID his (and my views) were WRONG in this thread as if when we vote we can dis-assemble like legos.
Just deal with your initial error and stop lecturing/brow-beating Christians into being...silent.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 03, 2016 07:22 PM |
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Markkur, your rights to follow your belief end where they involve others, simply because everyone has the same rights. You can do everything you deem correct FOR YOURSELF - but not for others. Same thing as with muslims by the way.
So everything that is supposed to be binding for everyone is a matter of compromise, and no amount of talk, religious or otherwise, can change that.
You see, it doesn't matter what God (supposedly) says, because God is only a PERSONAL authority, not a social one. Why? Because god isn't here to speak to us and no human has a gerenal claim to speak for him (remember, personal doesn't count). God made his laws for the Jews and Jesus made no laws at all. In short, there is no authority connected with religious claims.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 03, 2016 07:28 PM |
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You are typically full of non-sequiturs, Markkur but this time you have even surpassed your usual performance. It is YOU who brought a link by some writer speaking about how "our nation is God's miracle," I didn't derail anything. And while replying to Elodin's "while still young is the world's only superpower" and how he ties it to Christianity, of course, I will mention Western advancement because, U.S becoming a super-power is an organic part of that advancement and it can not be understood without it.
As I already said, you or the nut-job in your link are free to believe anything you want to. You can believe that the US is a super power because Jesus wishes so, good luck with that. Christians as individuals or communities are more than vocal in this world, stop playing some imaginary scenario where people are oppressing your beliefs. This is a frigging forum though, get used to objection when you start your irrelevant preaching and stop this ridiculous accusation of non-sense like I'm trying to silence you. It's deliberately lying, it's cheap and the way your posts are rotting away each passing month, what you'll have to worry will be writing to silence, not people silencing you.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2016 07:48 PM |
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so... which one of you's playing trump, and who's playing hillary? i'm confused. 
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 03, 2016 08:19 PM |
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Flip a coin to decide?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2016 08:51 PM |
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or maybe we should hit the polls? 
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted July 03, 2016 09:03 PM |
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The idea that most of or even more than a very few of the founding fathers were deists is certainly incorrect.
Quote:
In 1776, every European American, with the exception of about 2,500 Jews, identified himself or herself as a Christian. Moreover, approximately 98 percent of the colonists were Protestants, with the remaining 1.9 percent being Roman Catholics.
Barry A. Kosmin and Seymour P. Lachman, One Nation Under God: Religion in Contemporary American Society (New York: Harmony Books, 1993), pp. 28–29.
The laws, compacts, and constitutions of the colonies contain therein extensive quotes of Biblical passages. These folks considered themselves to be devoted Christians.
Reformation leaders before John Locke taught of a right and duty of the People to overthrow tyranical government. Such as John Knox, Samuel Rutherford, George Buchanan, Theodore Beza, Stephanus Junius Brutus, Christopher Goodman and John Ponet. In the Declaration of Independence The Founding Fathers echoed the assertion of the Protestant leaders that overthrowing tyranny is a God-given right and duty. The War for Independence was called as “a Presbyterian Rebellion” by King George because he recognized the influence of the Calvanist pastors in the rebellion.
Now, some have claimed that the language referring to God in the DOI is deitic but I claim otherwise. First, such references were common to Christians of the time. Reading sermons or confessions of the time prove that. For example, the Westminister Confessions. Secondly, some of the expressions in the DOI that refer to God are clearly not deist. “Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” and “reliance on the protection of divine Providence" do not portray a God who is far off, aloof, uncaring, and uninvolved with the world. Quite the opposite. The only rational interpretation based on the historical facts is that the DOI is referring to the God of the Bible.
The God of the Bible is nature's God. The Christian teaching of an ordered universe contrasted greatly with the idea of capricious nature spirits of pagan religions causing every rain shower or drought. Christianity was a major cause of advancement of the West. America's Christian heritage gave birth to her founding documents. The ideas enshrined therin have lifted America above her peers.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
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posted July 03, 2016 09:32 PM |
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Who cares?
The constitution wasn't perfect, otherwise there wouldn't be 27 amendments. Society wasn't better in the US than in England - how could it be? Because, let's not forget, the whole independence thing and the war were about money. After all, don't forget Britain is protestant as well.
Still - who cares? The constitution says, one religion is as good or bad as the other, and in fact because of that law it's fairly easy in the US to found a religion and become tax-freed as an NPO.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 04, 2016 01:16 AM |
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@Elodin
Franklin was a deist according to his own autobiography, Jefferson "defined being a Christian as one who followed the simple teachings of Jesus and compiled Jesus' biblical teachings, omitting miraculous or supernatural references." Adams believed in some level of intervention but also still had a similar, deistic stance to Jefferson in most cases, Paine wrote "the Age of Reason" which is clearly a book confronting any religion.
As I said, the key is not to be anachronic here. Even Franklin's deism can be seen as a watered down version if you evaluate them by today's standards but the important thing is that they were not pious Eric Metaxas of their age, they were progressive secularists.
And no. Bible's god isn't "nature's god." The book is full with stories of super-natural events and miracles, which btw, can be mostly traced back to pagan beliefs. But that's already been done in the religion thread.
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yogi
Promising
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of picnics
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posted July 04, 2016 02:24 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
You see, it doesn't matter what God (supposedly) says, because God is only a PERSONAL authority, not a social one. Why? Because god isn't here to speak to us and no human has a gerenal claim to speak for him (remember, personal doesn't count). God made his laws for the Jews and Jesus made no laws at all. In short, there is no authority connected with religious claims.
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=39744
^appropriate cross-link
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"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Celfious
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posted July 04, 2016 02:57 AM |
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Edited by Celfious at 03:24, 04 Jul 2016.
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(edit - okay blizz)
so i figured out we are just having different conversations.
Politics - holistically
Politics - current US politics and the election
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Blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 04, 2016 02:58 AM |
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This shouldn't be in this thread. The duo of American narcissists and the rebuttals should be somewhere else.
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted July 04, 2016 03:03 AM |
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Edited by Celfious at 03:10, 04 Jul 2016.
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Current US politics and the election is important.
the way 2017 - 2018 turns out depends on this. The future of the world, humanity, the environment, etc..
Anyways, there isn't much more to say on Hillarys situation. One source I can't validate says she had 5 lawyers with her during the "interview". I choose to believe that she did. Although there are a lot of factual elements involved with this that pretty much spells the end for her.
In any case, whether or not the Lynch situation blew everything apart for them or not, she is gone. I am pretty much viewing the whole situation as she is indicted. God bless the FBI.
Until then, stay safe lol
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 04, 2016 03:14 AM |
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It's very doubtful Hillary Clinton is going to be convicted because there isn't going to be any conclusive evidence that she did something illegal. It will still produce waves in the media though, which will bolster Trump's camp. Trump has gained ground and the two are now neck and neck in the latest polls, with Clinton only having a slight edge. Trump right now has a lot going for him to benefit his camp. I still think it will ultimately be a Clinton victory, and a safe one at that, because several of those benefits are going to fade by the time November comes.
The drama-worthy twist here is that in the polls, Sanders has an easy advantage over Trump whereas Clinton doesn't, although Clinton is the democratic nominee that will be running in the general election, and not just because of her superdelegates but because of popular vote alone. I'm assuming a lot of that has to do with the dark cloud currently hanging over Clinton's head whereas Sanders is far more unblemished.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Celfious
Promising
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From earth
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posted July 04, 2016 03:23 AM |
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Edited by Celfious at 03:29, 04 Jul 2016.
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The evidence is very concise, just speaking from only what is publicly known, and not even the 10s of thousands of documents unreleased. Many many counts of logical, black and white, yes and no, violations of laws, articles, etc.
Probably the only thing they can try to pull for her is she committed these crimes "without criminal intent".
If anyone really wants, I can go get a list of her crimes and the related laws and articles.. But my normal reaction to them is acknowledge and move on. I have done the research, I follow this extensively, but I don't take notes or try to have sources to provide. She is absolutely guilty, a nominee with 2 FBI probes, and really if the documents were released, its likely near countless how many times she has broken laws.
This is not biased opinion like I am routing for a football team. She is a criminal and worse.
side note for those who arent aware:
*gucifer is missing from jail
*State Department filed a motion to delay the release of Clinton foundation emails for 27 months
I would think if she were untouchable she wouldn't be bringing lawyers to her interrogation and asking to keep hiding documents for over 2 years.
CYA
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 04, 2016 04:15 AM |
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The interesting question in the future might be how far it takes for Clinton to yield the nomination in order to let Sanders have an easy victory over Trump. Even if she isnt indicted, which I don't think she will be, her polls might continue to plummet and that leaves somebody that ideologically isn't even Republican perched for the presidency, aka the anti establishment Trump with his set of novel ideas, such as trade wars and ethnic discrimination. We could have an anti-free trade president sitting in the Oval Office.
Here is the math: most Clinton supporters are also Sanders supporters, but not most Sanders supporters are Clinton supporters. Ergo, Sanders in the general election would be an easy win for the Democrats.
My spider senses tell me Clinton doesn't have the make-up of a Dark Knight. She wants the presidency and she wants it bad. She'll cling to the nomination as long as it's legally allowable for her to do so, which could mean a Trump as president when her campaign collapses on itself.
Madness. It's a great time to be alive gentlemen.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2016 05:12 AM |
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these election candidates are surely the worst i've ever seen. and i thought the bush jr./kerry election was bad. how in the hell do you find someone who can't take votes away from bush jr.? AFTER the iraq bullsnow?
lol, i keep thinking that the american public have an actual say in the matter. i gotta stop doing that. 
i smell catastrophic failure. with the next election, we're one step closer to the end of the u.s.
and i still think we're in our last year, as a species. so maybe this election doesn't even matter anymore...
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