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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted February 01, 2017 11:18 PM |
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Of course there is a subclass of humans that are politicians that is their chosen job. As such they have responsibilities that we do not require of other humans.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 01, 2017 11:29 PM |
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And all are (inherently?) corrupt?
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted February 01, 2017 11:42 PM |
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Of course not, but don't act like the majority of politicians are interested in more than their own job security.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2017 11:49 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 23:50, 01 Feb 2017.
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Minion said:
And all are (inherently?) corrupt?
if they aren't at the start of their career, they are by the end.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 12:02 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Of course not, but don't act like the majority of politicians are interested in more than their own job security.
I never have acted like that, have I? I disagree with your assertion that ALL politicians are in it for the money. But this is a matter of faith because we can't know what ALL people think all the time.
For example I don't believe every single athlete would use drugs if they are offered to improve their performance, neither do I believe that all politicians are taking bribes if they can. We just have to agree to disagree here.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 02, 2017 12:36 AM |
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artu said:
Ok, you guys are way off now, when Markkur talks about the relationship between finance and the elections, he's not talking about government officials' salaries. It is the election process remember, you are not in office yet! What you officialy pay to people working for the government is completely another matter. What he's talking about, and almost every American I've seen who has a brain complains about this, is that the candidates (not just for presidency but for senate just as well) who are not supported by big finance practically have no chance whatsoever, because the election process has evolved into a circus and the one with the stronger propaganda machine and proper ties to certain lobbies wins. Now, politics have always been a lot about "you are who you know," that's global, but the unrestricted way US laws allow finance to support any political movement kind of evolved into a very decadant version of this, they plainly buy politics, oil companies trigger invasions, gun industry determines laws on guns, the medicine industry determine health programmes etc... This is not about taking bribes because you are poor, this is about who gets you on which chair to begin with. I was listening to a professor of political science speaking on the TV once and I remember him explaining that the system has stuck on this so hard that once a politician gets elected for congress (or senate, cant remember which), he had to spend the next 4 years mostly to keep these lobbies financing him once again or he's out for the second term. So, the system kind of pushes you into being a rodeo rider, you spend your energy on standing on the horse rather than riding it somewhere.
All I can say Artu is...Bravo!
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 02, 2017 01:09 AM |
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I should have written "staying on the horse" though, not "standing on the horse," right. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 09:54 AM |
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I really like the British Guardian and this editorial leaves no room for doubt where they stand. (Quote:
Donald Trump has been president of the United States for 10 days. Many were prepared to give Mr Trump a chance. But even they must conclude he has been in office 10 days too long. Americans did a dreadful thing by electing Mr Trump. But the reality of it is only beginning to hit home. It is not his words that matter, awful though they are on subjects such as torture, but his actions. These raise urgent questions about whether America can afford to have such a president governing in such a way for four years — and how things may realistically change...
Reading that, I couldn't quite believe the headlines today. There was a recap of Steve Bannon's assertions a couple of months ago, the US would go to war with China within the next 10 years over China's South Pacific Bases AND be in another war in the Middle East.
An official warning to Iran. A less than happy (and in fact raging) president about the "dumb deal" Obama made with Australia dealing with the refugee settlement. A Myron Ebell intervie assuring the Trump administration's work to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency...
Now, I know what some will say. The media, CERTAIN media are blowing things up and out of proportion. But, you see - they don't. After Merkel's phone call with Trump her spokesman told the press: Quote:
The [1951 UN] refugee convention requires the international community to take in war refugees on humanitarian grounds. All signatory states are obligated to do so. The German government explained this policy in their call.
If my German chancellor, who is a solid mainstream conservative, looks like an Amnesty International activist compared to the US president, you just know that something is VERY wrong.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 02, 2017 10:09 AM |
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I doubt the convention requires countries to flow in at once one million of "refugees" without any check for refugee status validity, nationality and background. I also doubt that those conventions prohibit the deportation back of those having their refugee status refused thus they remain indefinitely and without any further follow-up. Yet this is what happened -thanks to Merkel idealistic errancies, and personally I find this much worse -its effects at least- than pausing the program for 90 days until a proper solution comes up.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 11:18 AM |
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That's just polemics, yet again. Your words are real words, but they don't make any sense:
Quote:
I doubt the convention requires countries to flow in at once one million of "refugees" without any check for refugee status validity, nationality and background.
Is that what happens? This article says that in 2014 nearly 300.000 refugees entered the EU IRREGULARLY. You can't check on irregularly entering persons, and over a quarter of a million people is much more than needed for a couple of terror attacks, if people are really keen on it.
Furthermore, according to EUROSTAT there were around 625.000 asylum applications for the whole EU in 2014. Granted were less than 200.000.
In 2015 there were 1.25 million asylum applications, 35% of those for Germany, and, by the way, only 6% or 70.000 for France. Granted of that were one third of a million or less than 27%. Germany alone granted nearly 150.000. France granted 26.000.
However, that's the official numbers. In fact, in 2015 Germany had to deal with nearly 900.000 asylum seekers - but only the above shown number could register due to limited beaurocratic capacities, and of those only about 280.000 could be decided over in Germany.
So what do you suppose the convention would require? Let the rest starve? Shoot them, when they try to enter your country?
Quote:
I also doubt that those conventions prohibit the deportation back of those having their refugee status refused thus they remain indefinitely and without any further follow-up. Yet this is what happened
Well, this is also a very complex issue: In Germany, a lot of those denied are not deported "back" because there is no "back": if you don't know where someone comes from because they have no papers, where are you going to deport them? Put them on a boat in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? Because, you know, no other country will take them. See it this way: arriving without papers makes sense for a refugee - but then you can't check on their background. Refugees are not immigrants who took their time, prepared their move and so on - Refugees are on the flight. Unfortunately, that's also a good cover for everyone with bad intentions.
Quote:
-thanks to Merkel idealistic errancies, and personally I find this much worse -its effects at least- than pausing the program for 90 days until a proper solution comes up.
Oh, no, you cannot blame Merkel for things going on in France. How countries deal with the problem is their own responsibility, and Merkel didn't force France at gun point to sign Dulin III.
If you statistically compare what happens in France and what happens in Germany, and how many refugees are in Germany, legally and illegally, and how many are in France, legally and illegally, then you can only conclude there is no connection between the amount and gravity of incidents and the amount of refugee influx. And obviously you have no way of assessing the effect of "pausing the program for 90 days", nor is there any reason to end this with "until a proper solution comes up"? What is that supposed to mean, "a proper solution COMES UP"? God sending help? Aliens kidnap refugees? THey all have starved to death and just have to be buried? Und where do they stay in the meantime? On the airstrips?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 02, 2017 03:22 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Which means, they fell for Trump's campaign strategy.
I mean, think about who you'd want as your solicitor to fight for your interests at court. You want someone TOUGH who is able to stand up for you when the going gets tougher.
Same in politics, because you wouldn't even bother to vote if you didn't think that a politician and especially the Pres is somehow the representant of your interests. Between the various interests of corps, other countries, party comrades, people you own something and the general pop you want someone TOUGH who isn't backing away at the slightest problem, a real PRO in dealing with this, and, if necessary a mean b!tch who can take a lot.
Which means, the choice is between Hillary and one of the two other candidates, but Trump is worse than Hillary in each and every respect when it comes to qualification for the office.
Also, Trump's TEAM is less than appealing.
You could as much say they DIDN'T fall for Clinton's strategy.
The Democrats does not represent interests of the American folks any longer. True that Trump is awful news for illegal workers, Muslims, and Latinos in general, but Clinton was awful news for the rest of the world, including her own people.
In all honesty, if I were a US citizen I would have voted Sanders blindfolded, but Trump vs Clinton, as horrible as the choice is, I would have gone for Trump. Not to mention living in EU I can only be relieved Clinton didn't pass.
Sure Clinton may be more qualified in the office, but considering her agenda that's more of a bad point than a good one, imo.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 04:01 PM |
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And because the EU can be so relieved EU president Tusk wrote a letter of concern before the Malta summit, and Trump is so much better than Hillary necause Steve Bannon predicted a war with China within the next ten years and another war in the Middle East sooner, a couple of months ago.
We are definitely not living in the same world here.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 02, 2017 04:53 PM |
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artu said:
I should have written "staying on the horse" though, not "standing on the horse," right.
Think so? You should see my Turkish..."second thought better not".
I'm rhyming today for some reason. And btw, at my age a guy can do that stuff with...ease. You need to work at it some more. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 02, 2017 08:39 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Oh, no, you cannot blame Merkel for things going on in France. How countries deal with the problem is their own responsibility, and Merkel didn't force France at gun point to sign Dulin III.
of course I can, and I say she was selfish and irresponsible. And you know why, there are simply NO borders between France and Germany, as well as between other EU countries (except the smart ones from the east who decide enough is enough), so when you say Germany took 900 000, it means Germany exposed all Europe to those 900k, without asking if they agree even one second. The Tunisian refugeeterrorist killed people in Germany, then was seen in Lyon and finally was killed in Italy. So yes, Merkel forced all of us to deal with 900k potential refugees/economic migrants. Trump, in comparison, is an amateur, she is the professional of chaos.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 09:26 PM |
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That is complete and utter nonsense, if I ever heard any. It's so illogical and, well blame-greedy - it*s actually deluded. It's not even worth arguing about.
It's - well, actually it*s sad. This misanthropic hatemongering against the helpless and against people who act in the best CHRISTIAN sense is NO different from the hate speeches of fanatic fundamentalist islamic hatemongers, disregarding their fellow humans.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 02, 2017 09:48 PM |
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yeah back to "shot the messenger" when I dislike the message. Already seen.
You want to help the "helpless"? Go ahead and show us example -until now I only see you running your mouth, but please don't force the others to do the same way, they have maybe other priorities and it is their right. Some thinker said in the past; the smart refines its arguments while the dumb raises his voice. Glad to see you back in your natural form.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 02, 2017 10:13 PM |
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The "messenger"? Is that part of the delusion? That someone told you to bring a message?
And I think, you are switching things here. YOU are the one ranting against how things are, so YOU are the one that runs your mouth, claiming all kind of bull. I am quite satisfied with the way things are - in Europe, that is. YOU should do something. Instead of raising your voice.
Now, take a minute and THINK. Is there any place in the world you'd RATHER want to live in - with limited financial means - OUTSIDE of the EU that is NOT Switzerland?
If you say "no" now, "not really", then take the time and start to think about the reasons.
Now, we have one thing in common. I think that the Islam is an oppressive religion because it victimizes half of their own population: their women. With 1.6 billion muslims, half of them being oppressed females, you'd actually have to give asylum EVERY SINGLE woman from any of the so-called muslim countries.
Now, look at the Nürnberg trials and the war crime case made against Germany. Our population, soldiers and so one were considered NOT GUILTY. Instead the LEADERS were identified as the culprits. After everything Germany did in WW2, we were given a clean sheet. global political situation notwithstanding, that was a landmark decision. It means that people are not to blame - LEADERS are.
So. Isn't THAT your target, then? Not muslims, but fanatic, hatemongering muslim LEADERS?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted February 02, 2017 10:44 PM |
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What if a Nation is in debt up to its eyeballs, to the tune of Trillions of dollars, in front of a "needed" and terribly difficult hard-road ahead of "cutting measures" that will affect all members of that Society? And what about our already currently passing catastrophic debt to the next generation and not only that criminality but adding billions, maybe another Trillion more?
What if that Nation already has the perfect storm blowing towards the existing citizen's welfare program that has "already" been swamped to near destruction?
Ftr, I worked for nearly 40 years of hard damned labor, and other than at the very end, I paid into our Welfare-system for all of those 40 years and received nothing...until I became disabled. My reality? I had to go to court and live in fear for "one and a half years" due to a mandated "auto-reject system" for U.S. taxpayers and was forced, by "existing law" to hand-over nearly 9,000 to a Lawyer, before finally, after three trials, the evidence of both my work-history and my medical-tests proved my case beyond doubt.
While I was treated as an "Undesirable," in this degrading fashion, even after contributing to that same damn system for those4-DECADES}, people that were not even here during the last forty years were handed everything? Seldom was there any discussion about fair-treatment of this Nation's existing citizens. And, carved in granite as fact, my participation in the Welfare State was NOT an option...it was forced on all Americans and still is.
I absolutely believe and practice Charity but that is NOT what "this nation" is about today...it has been in recent decades about buying votes and holding power no matter what any politician says. Trump is not God, nor Lincoln and what matters is that Americans save America for it's existing citizens and get it back into, at least, a "reasonably" sound fiscal-state.
I would prefer our main focus, for a time, rest on getting our own citizens, already living in urban hell-holes, back into a healthy society first, before importing the same sort of problems from the rest of the world, and in essence ensuring our inner-cites continue the slide to chaos. We can help others and should but at some point, any GIVER, must take stock of real circumstance, so the foundation to give...remains.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 02, 2017 10:48 PM |
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Well, I understand that leftists are quite satisfied with things as now but I also see anger around bursting at unprecedented proportions, then also I see them completely hysterical and on the defensive because of Brexit and Trump. Things will change soon, no matter how loud you yell. Also, you could just refute my arguments instead on going on "similarities" between me and the fanatical warmongers, but I guess that would be impossible for you, so you take the personal path as usual.
Lets try again:
There is no control at borders between Germany and France, correct?
Germany didn't ask the opinion of other countries around, when they decided to open borders to more than 1 million people, correct?
Germany didn't performed any check before they allowed this people in, because 80% from refugees had no paper, correct?
Given there are no borders, this means those 1 million people can go anywhere in Europe, correct?
As proof, the Tunisian terrorist was seen in Lyon, then killed in Italy, correct?
As second proof, Germany lost track of 600 000 asylum seekers, Correct?
In previous posts you praised Angela on how she is so special compared to Trump. Facts show that she is a fanatic dictator, without any regard for democracy or her allies advice, in seek for a warm place in the history of liberal cucks as she actually put Europe in unprecedented danger, by allowing million of people NOBODY knows to flow in, without any serious check on their background. In the past, when such thing happened, army was sent to deal with invaders.
One last thing: the only shocking quote in this thread is yours:
JollyJoker said:
A couple of deluded people produced a couple of dead that are meaningless in the bigger picture, but some people with their own agenda make a big deal out of it.
You considering 443 victims as a "couple of dead being meaningless in the bigger picture" makes me really worry about your mental sanity.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted February 03, 2017 08:33 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
The "messenger"? Is that part of the delusion? That someone told you to bring a message?...So. Isn't THAT your target, then? Not muslims, but fanatic, hatemongering muslim LEADERS?
I don't agree with most of Sal's conservative PoV but this is absolutelly true. The European Community had the same problem with brasilian prostitutes ten or twelve years ago, they entered Europe through Portugal, that had friendlyer policies due to historic reasons and then travel allover by bus to work wherever they wanted, for instance.
And strangelly, I am way more worried about us 'importing' their commun folk with their barbaric mentality about women, homosexuals, atheists (me), etc... and giving them the right to vote here then about some beard lunatic calling for jihad from the top of lisbon's musk.
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