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verriker
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posted February 14, 2017 11:14 AM |
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interesting mate, looks like General flynn of the Republicans/trump resigned just then for a bit of coziness to the ambassador of Russia lol
to be not born yesterday I will read between the lines of that for sure lol
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2017 01:56 PM |
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Back to Trump ban, a recent poll performed in EU countries was without surprise. Once again, who our leaders and medias represent?
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Minion
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posted February 14, 2017 02:43 PM |
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Unfortunate if people really want to TARGET only muslims in who can come in. I wonder if the result is the same or similar had they been asked simply to lower all immigration, at least in Finland the gallups have only asked about that.
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verriker
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posted February 14, 2017 02:47 PM |
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verriker said:
interesting mate, looks like General flynn of the Republicans/trump resigned just then for a bit of coziness to the ambassador of Russia lol
to be not born yesterday I will read between the lines of that for sure lol
btw bear in mind the Ann Coneway (the spin doctor of the Republicans/trump) had said flynn has the full confidence of the trump mere moments before flynn resigned, despite being confirmed for Russian operative lol
that is all very juicy as although I like Russia generally the same Americans do not like to be secretly ruled by Russia instead of America and all that, I will get my popcorn to enjoy the likely big corruption fallout lol
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 02:55 PM |
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Don't you think it's the other way round? That interested parties including certain media with a certain agenda tout this as loud as possible, fake news included?
And don't you think a lot of people would support a lot of other things the governments do differently?
This poll happened before Trump started - Here is a more recent poll in Germany about Trump. The first table asks for trustworthy partners:
USA 22% trustworthy - 70 untrustworthy
RUSSIA 21 - 74
TURKEY 4 - 93
Next are 3 questions about Trump:
EU must close their ranks against Trump: 80% IN FAVOR.
I think, Germany economy may become weaker due to Trump: 67% Yes
I like that Trump fulfills his election promises 26% yes.
In this recent poll 84.4 % DISAGREE with Trumps muslim ban, while 87.3 % do NOT want a Trump-like chancellor in Germany.
Conclude from this what you want, but my conclusion is that people tend to agree with "populistic views" - but only as long as they are a carrot dangling before their nose. If they actually taste them, they come to their senses quite fast.
Another option might be that before Trump the panicmongering and fake news attacks of the far right worked pretty well, prompting people to be against immigration (specifically of muslims), while AFTER Trump the new president himself and the massive coverage by all media did its work as well, prompting a backlash.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2017 04:05 PM |
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People will answer to specific questions, about specific subjects affecting their every day life, even if they are, in theory, against the ideology supposed to be behind that action. Also, that people may answer "I don't want Trump" is irrelevant, as this is as much as vague as possible, after the fact that 99% of medias, day after day, do nothing but bashing Trump.
So is perfectly valid that people may disagree having Trump (or any like him) as president but then when asked on a specific action, as banning ALL muslims -which is much farer than what even Trump proposes, they vote for.
And once again, for those who didn't yet get it, this is not about immigration as normal phenomenon, but about muslim mass scale invasion under immigration cover.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 04:53 PM |
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What you don't seem to get is, the same Germany that by the end of 2016 has been polled by some british think tank for a 53% of being in favor of a general immigration ban on muslims, were polled a month later for an 84.4 % being NOT in favor of Trump's muslim ban (while even more are not in favor of Trump).
The media have been awakened to the fact that there are some outlets (and people) who are producing fake news, and react on that, and it is fairly obvious that most people want RELIABLE information, because without reliable information there cannot be an informed opinion.
Trump and his obvious blunders (and those of his staff) have just made it clear how things will continue, if that example is followed. It's not the media blundering - it's Trump and his administration, and THEY are actually now hurting the agenda of the national right and far right everywhere in Europe, which is pretty ironic, all things considering.
Suddenly Europe is cool, Canada is cool, and being for freedom and democracy is cool as well.
Because, face it, people may have been instilled with fear from muslims and terror and whatnot, but now TRUMP instills them with a much more REAL fear of an unpredictable madman sitting on the chair of the most powerful man in the world.
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AlHazin
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posted February 14, 2017 05:09 PM |
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I wouldn't to lower the level, but my thought is that if indeed a majority of Europeans were against muslim immigration, muslim immigration would stop or drastically lower.
It's not like your politicians and governments can choose for the majority of you guys, is it? You can't oppose such statistics as there would be demonstrations and a so great mobilization and will against their immigration, that it would have sensible effects.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 05:39 PM |
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There are two separate things that combine. For one thing, there is regular (muslim) immigration. This is happening a lot in France and Britain, since a lot of people immigrate from mostly muslim countries there, say, from Pakistan to Britain, and from Tunesia or ALgeria to France.
That is one thing, and it happens for quite some time now, leaving both France and Britain with a sizable muslim population.
THEN there is the crisis in the Near East, that started earnestly when the foreign Western troops were pulled back from Iraq and Afghanistan and fundamentalist muslim forces decided to fight for a shift in the general order.
That leads to a 7-digit amount of REFUGEES from that region, which is a different phenomenon.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2017 05:55 PM |
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First I would not take any statistics from Germany as European relevant because multiple factors. The top one is that Germany has a heavy past and it is clear that Merkel's irresponsible and so much predictable actions -in our eyes- are due to this burden shadows. This factor will overwrite all others, as Germany specifically prohibiting far-right manifestations, hiding foreigners criminal statistics, being more than vocal on unconditional tolerance and generosity, being fanatically against anything close to nationalist or patriotic concepts and actions, and all this can be observed in Merkel's direct behavior and speeches; there is a video where she throws away, in disgust, the german flag handed to her, then she regularly recalls the past horrors when speaking about refugees. Now, from my point of view, if germans want to suicide, I sympathize but that's it -what can we do, however the others should not suffer from collateral damages, hence I prefer to know there are borders between our countries.
AlHazin, the poll is not fake news, this is reality in Europe since at least 10 years but you ignore the power of medias and corporations, both fed by the government subventions, then the impact of the censure dressed like a wall between the dominant ideology and the common sense. Then naturally, polls require yes/no/no opinion, but our thinking is more complex, while I would answer yes to such poll, it doesn't mean that I would personally ban every Muslim, but rather the ideology forcing us to accept any. Once we are back to common sense, then we can discuss about immigration, the realist one.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 06:01 PM |
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A lot in that post is not true - unfounded claim, untruths, your personal opinion sold as "our view".
You do not speak for Europe, you do not even speak for France. YOu can only speak for yourself.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2017 06:05 PM |
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Oh yeah because when you wrote that Europe is laughing at Trump actions, you were speaking for anybody except yourself?
I recall you that France voted NO to EU, back in 2005. Then the vote of the people was ignored and adhesion signed. This gives me at least some credentials about french people not agreeing with open borders, globalization and all the havoc coming from. Having 61% of french voting for "ban all muslims further immigration" is not the expression of a generous acceptance towards Merkel letting in 1 million and half of them, what you think?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 07:16 PM |
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That is absolutely untrue as well. The French voters - as the Dutch said no to the "Constitution of Europe" that was to replace Rome and Masstricht, (and not to the EU), and as a result of the vote, instead of having a Constitution of Europe instead of Rome and Masstricht, an amendment was made and ratified 2007 in Lisbon.
So are certainly getting a lot of credentials as someone telling untruths, but not as someone speaking for the French.
Having 61% of 1000 people being in favor of a ban of further muslim immigration is an expression of the fact that France already has 10% muslim population. As I've told you repeatedly, closing your borders won't change that.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2017 08:12 PM |
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You are dishonest. I specified people were and are against open borders, globalization and immigration, which is exactly what Mastricht preconize, as well as the European constitution, which fixes immigration quotas and rules (countries not agreeing are fined, hope you know that). You already accused me of false news, go ahead and point them one by one, I will address them as well. And of course, you choose to ignore the elephant in the room, the aborted referendum.
JollyJoker said:
Having 61% of 1000 people being in favor of a ban of further muslim immigration is an expression of the fact that France already has 10% muslim population. As I've told you repeatedly, closing your borders won't change that.
Liberal cognitive dissonance: there are already too many, so why close borders, let all others in. I won't even address that, if you don't see whats wrong with.
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AlHazin
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posted February 14, 2017 08:31 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
[...]closing your borders won't change that.
Unless you start an expelling policy, here we always say that'll come the say where the fellows will come back being thrown back by their hosts countries, or a policy of assimilation, which can be lead totally peacefully just as much as Canada manages to keep most of native Indians youth out of politics by giving enough money to party hard 24/7 all the year, getting them busy far from asking any form of right or the like. Europe though might be different.
What you said is true though, the abnormal immigration is something quite hard to manage, though in the example of UK according to some sources (for what they worth) they took like 8000 refugees (2016 numbers) Germany on the contrary took like 600.000 if I recall well. Germany's fearing any kind of nationalism is probably due to where nationalism usually drove Germany. If you look at it, Germany as we know it today hasn't always existed, compared to France or England. You may say that it has begun existing since the French Prussian war, you might even assume Prussia was a primary state of Germany though. And since then (1871), Germany has always been quite "unstable" if we may say, because soon after, we had WWI where Germany was implicated, then WWII where it was more implicated again, then the partition, then the "reunification" which was basically the Bundesrepublik taking over the DDR. And then today's Germany, starting from 1991 which has a heavy past to burden, and despite being a great economical force has like 0% of the political power it once had, not to mention the difference with the power UK, USA, or Russia may have on a world scale. Why they took that number of immigrants is somehow understandable.
Now Trump could have, rather than simply ban everyone, just hardened access to USA for the countries on the list, and anyway if you need a VISA isn't it to check if the person has all requirements to enter the territory? If there's already a form of checking of who enters and who doesn't following certain conditions, why impose a ban, since USA is not likely to get immigrants the way Europe does, I don't think any Syrian will take a boat hoping he'll cross the Atlantic and make it to New York. I think this is what has hit his credibility and why that court went against him.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 08:49 PM |
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This isn't the first time I say this, but this is the US politics thread, not the "Rant against the EU, Merkel and Muslims" thread.
You mention "dishonest"? Then stop hijacking threads for anti-muslim, anti-EU, anti-German propaganda, open your own thread with a fitting title. Because slipping this misinformed propaganda in at every opportunity is not only dishones, it's also cowardly.
If you have something to say with regard to muslims, the EU, Germany, Merkel, right-wing politics, globalism and so on - make a thread.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 08:58 PM |
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AlHazin said:
...
If you are Canadian, then you'll know that Thrudeau welcomes everyone in Canada the US won't take, so I assume at this point Canada and Germany have more in common than Canada and France or Canada and US.
The main thing with our recent past is a glaring inability to say, let alone do anything against ISRAEL. Germany would be the last country on earth ever saying anything against the state of Israel.
That's all.
Apart from that I'd have thought the Geneva Conventions would have been signed by a lot of states, including the US, so I don't really see why it is obviously necessary that we lecture the US about it.
As expected.
It's becoming more of a farce with each day.
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Salamandre
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posted February 14, 2017 11:28 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Then stop hijacking threads for anti-muslim, anti-EU, anti-German propaganda, open your own thread with a fitting title.
I have absolutely no interest in making a thread about that, after the 12 hours I work everyday, politics is the last thing preoccupying me. And I would not even answer here if it wasn't your dozens of biased and consecutive posts about Trump, which required parallels with Europe, as Trump made it clear: his actions vs muslim countries are inspired from Europe's current situation. Then should I recall you that its you who first compared Merkel (how awesome she is) with Trump, so a fine tuning was required. Btw, a little parallel between the ban and Merkel by Farage as well, have fun.
From my point of view, Trump simply demonstrates that the people -through an elected leader, can still decide on who has the privilege to enter in their country, only if it wasn't the leftists cohorts determined to wreck everything he does. This is much more than an US problem, is world wide major concern. If Trump succeeds at it, the whole Europe's face will change as well, but I get it: you just don't want it to happen.
Granted, he didn't put much work or thought in its early actions but where there is such motivation, experience will not miss too long.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2017 11:59 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
Then stop hijacking threads for anti-muslim, anti-EU, anti-German propaganda, open your own thread with a fitting title.
I have absolutely no interest in making a thread about that, after the 12 hours I work everyday, politics is the last thing preoccupying me.
So you spam another thread? Dishonest. Deliberately offtopic posts are against the CoC. If you can't bother to give it an effort, don't start. And coming from a guy with your amount of posts - ridiculous.
Quote:
Granted, he [Trump] didn't put much work or thought in its early actions but where there is such motivation, experience will not miss too long.
Dude, we are not talking about some spoiled son of a musician and the verdict of his music teacher in school (which I'm sure you'd be much stricter in your verdict with). It's the frigging president of the awesome United States and his staff.
Dilettantism isn't against the constitution - but in office ist should be.
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verriker
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posted February 15, 2017 12:07 AM |
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albeit it's a bit skeptical mate if a busy 12 hour day and not interested in politics that I would bother to be triggered by any so-called liberals (U.K. definition not U.S. hopefully lol, U.S. liberals are more right than Tories lol)/leftists cucks or whatnot altreich slang they use, with a daily bit of anti-Muslim rhetoric about the politics threads on obscure video game forum,
come on mate for sure you are emotionally invested in this kind of thread much more than almost 99% of members at HC I'd say, no need to try to play it cool or aloof/indifferent pal I certainly think a bit of emotional passion for an issue or position is great even if it may be on a regressive issue lol
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