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| Thread: Did Feminists Lied/Over Exagerated Women's Victimhood? |  This thread is pages long: 1 10 ... 12 13 14 15 16 ... 20 30 31 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Adrius
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posted July 28, 2014 12:01 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 12:18, 28 Jul 2014.
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fred79 said:
what exactly did the females expect(from the first link)? from what i understand, the guys who attend these kinds of events, aren't really with too many women(and that is possibly an understatement). at least, i would think that that would be the general opinion... am i wrong?
Nothing a woman says or does gives men a right to harass them.
I think women should be allowed to wear whatever they want without having to consider if men are going to sexually harass them for it.
Now, sadly they DO have to consider what they wear all the time cuz you know... reality.
Still no reason to point it out and put focus on the victims, instead of the perpetrators. Called victim blaming, like "what did she expect walking in that alley at night?", "of course she's gonna get raped if she dresses like a s***!!"... like just no, **** that ****.
It's wrong, focus on the harassers instead, we're not beasts ruled by our penises, we can be held responsible for what we do...
All kinda obvious, right?
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artu
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posted July 28, 2014 12:17 PM |
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When it comes to groping I agree. However, if you are in some parade wearing costumes, you shouldn't complain when people take pictures or stare a little.
I also think "being objectified as a sex object" argument is very problematic. Both genders see each other ALSO as sex objects, there's nothing wrong with it, if they don't reduce each other into that. You can't wish to be sexy, attractive and then complain when men get attracted. It's not like someone's on a stand giving a lecture on economics but people are looking at her breasts, is it?
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Adrius
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posted July 28, 2014 12:22 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 12:26, 28 Jul 2014.
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Well yeah, I agree.
It's really about reducing to an object as you say, when that becomes all that you are.
There's nothing that says you can't be sexy, intelligent and successful at the same time, in fact male sexiness is often portrayed that way in my experience... harder if you're a woman, in that case if you're not sexy it's hard to even be considered anything else.
I mean you can definitely harass without groping however though... catcalling, staring for too long, stalking... I mean it's not rocket science.
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fred79
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posted July 28, 2014 12:23 PM |
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you know how fantasy goes, right? it says right in the link that they were using women to sell sex to (i'm guessing here, so don't step on my throat) nerdy virgin types. so who is at fault? not just the men, i would think. i'm not excusing the catcalling, picture-taking, or whatever(although it seems to be part of the fun). it just seems to me that the women who went, just went to pick a fight. from what i understand, it's a sexist culture, at these comic-cons. every single comic book i have EVER SEEN has been flooded with sexy, skimpily clad females. and why? because guys who cannot get girls read them. and, because sex sells. which is why the guys are all buff and looking sexy too(i guess  ) in comics.
so, who's to blame for making the news there? if a "blood" walks into a "crip" convention, what do you think will happen? are the crips to blame for doing what they normally do in such a situation, or is the blood, for going where he should have damn well known, wasn't their territory? (i know this isn't a very good example, as gang-turf crap is stupid, but you should get what i am trying to say, regardless).
there are just some places, that aren't going to be safe for people, is what i'm saying. these kinds of events are ABOUND with picture taking with scantily-clad, COSPLAY females(which, i understand, is a fetish among these people). again, what did they expect?
they were ASKING for trouble. it's not a feminist environment, and indeed, nowhere does it NEED to be. equality among sexes is one thing, going to a place, apparently to **** up something that has been going good for everyone(females AND males) there, is just unneeded. the girls who go to those things(the ones who aren't paid to show off their sexiness, anyway), by my understanding, enjoy the attention. this is the first time i have seen any BAD news about such a thing. and the reason is, that feminists wanted to **** on something. 
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Adrius
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posted July 28, 2014 12:49 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 12:54, 28 Jul 2014.
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You say you don't excuse harassment and then you do exactly that, "they were ASKING for trouble", it's not "their territory", and it's apparently not a "feminist environment".
**** that. Seriously. How low are your ambitions for this world? Why shouldn't women be able to go dressed as they like to a comic con without fear of being harassed? Why shouldn't they be able to go anywhere?!
It's their ****ing territory as much as the geeks'. And if it's not considered their territory, then I APPLAUD them for taking the step to claim some of that space.
And yes the organizers who use booth-babes as advertising are also to blame of course, but we (zeh nerds) can still choose how we react and relate to that kinda crap.
What's wrong with you? What do you even want? You just want women to share the blame of what happens to them? Get some focus off the men? Why, does it hurt so bad?
Bah.
You know this kinda talk is part of why harassed and raped women are afraid to talk about it, cuz it's always about them and how they should have known better, how she should not have gotten drunk among all those men, how she should have known, how she would acted more decently.
**** this makes me so mad I can't even type properly.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 28, 2014 12:54 PM |
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Quote:
It's wrong, focus on the harassers instead, we're not beasts ruled by our penises, we can be held responsible for what we do...
Many men are, 'beasts' as you claim, it would be wrong to just ignore that. Dressing provocatively as much as it pains me to say it, is asking for it, since you're in your own little bubble pretending the world isn't what it is. You sexually provoke the animals in our society then the consequences are pretty obvious. It's not about right or wrong, or how men ought pretend to behave around a woman with less than a tea-cloth worth of clothing on her. It's about being wise, being able to foresee the consequences of your actions.
So I disagree with you Ad, in the current age if a woman struts around wearing something provocative then it will flare up some primal urge in most of us. While many can mask it and exercise self restraint (i.e no ogling) , but it's still there, and some people have little power over themselves. Don't get me wrong, it is wrong, but it is also how things are. Hell, I'd love to track through the East-End, being ignorant about my chances of being stabbed.
So I have to conclude that the blame is shared, we can't pretend that every man out there is some reasonable creature that isn't ruled by his baser instinct. At the same time to provoke these 'animals' is not prudent whether knowingly or unknowingly. We have to be wary of the effect of our actions, the way we behave and dress, because it has an impact on everyone else around us, that is why I don't go strutting around nude, as much as I'd like to (outside that is), because while I consider myself the right to do so, I have no right to repulse others.
The problem arises when the woman is of the same caliber of intelligence as her assailant, with utter disregard for consequences, and ruled by baser instinct. (obviously different to the male) Ignorance on part of a woman deserves pity and we must comfort her, but we also cannot ignore that she played a positive (positive as in she acted toward it) part in her tragedy, though she may never realize.
If the world was populated by men and women of substance then I'd agree with you, (obviously with men being ought to dress without harassment as well), but while our society is so densely populated with those lacking self restraint in both genders, we have to accept things as they are. A code of etiquette based in law could be established, but that would be forcing people to behave as I consider it to be right, which would not be right.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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mvassilev
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posted July 28, 2014 01:00 PM |
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If someone leaves their door unlocked, are they asking to be burglarized?
Fault lies with those who do something wrong, in this case, with the men who harass. They're perfectly capable of not harassing - suggesting anything less is sexist against men.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 28, 2014 01:06 PM |
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Leaving your door unlocked significantly increases your chances of being burgled, being ignorant of that does not reduce the burglar's responsibility for his actions. But to ignore your own part in the events, is foolish.
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They're perfectly capable of not harassing
In theory only.
There must be a desire not to harass, they likely see it as good fun. Corribus and his story about the Japanese student comes to mind here, when a person doesn't even consider his actions to be harassment, or even 'bad'. I know it will be particularly hard to fathom how one cannot see their actions as bad when the other is clearly in distress, but empathy goes out the window in favor of a laugh, or good-fun. Most people, myself included more times than I care to admit don't truly know what they're doing sometimes.
I found it, to further illustrate my point.
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I know that Azagal lives in Japan, which is fortuitous because I can share a personal story that taught me a very hard lesson about the delicacy of humor. In graduate school I worked very closely with a nice Japanese fellow who left his home country to study here in the US. I actually very much liked the guy. He was friendly and, like many Japanese, he possessed a sense of honor unlike anything you'll find here in the US.
As it turned out, this person absolutely hated to be touched. I suppose this has something to do with Japanese culture. They don't hug and show a lot of outward emotions, particularly between men (I guess all that bowing they do in the movies is authentic). They don't even really like to shake hands. Which of course I and the other guys where I worked found endlessly amusing. So at every opportunity we hugged the guy and pretended like we were feeling him up. Smacked him on the ass, that sort of thing.
He hated it. He told us all the time that it made him uncomfortable, and that he didn't like people touching him, but that just made it a lot more funny, so we did it more and more often. We laughed in his face about it, and when he got upset we told him it was just a joke and he shouldn't take it so seriously. Ha, ha, ha, right? Guy should just get a sense of humor, right?
Well, apparently we made him so miserable that he quit his studies and went back to Japan.
So there you have it. Why didn't I just listen to him when he told us that he didn't find our jokes funny? Why did we try to make him feel bad for not having a sense of humor? We were such snows and so culturally insensitive that we were making his stay here in the US a nightmare. All in the name of "humor".
I've always felt bad about that, because I did really like the guy. We weren't joking around to be mean - we really thought it was funny. I wish I could take all that back, but I can't. Yet it did teach me a valuable lesson. Sometimes what we think is funny is not funny at all to the people we are messing around with. And when they tell us about it, we should listen to them and stop it immediately.
I think this is especially something that is good to keep in mind when joking around with people of other cultures, which is invariably the case in an online community.
Well, that's it. Maybe it will help explain why I was so affected by this thread.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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fred79
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posted July 28, 2014 01:25 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 13:27, 28 Jul 2014.
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@ adrius: i didn't mean that they were asking for trouble, by getting catcalled. what they were asking for, was their idea of a world where there is no fun and lighthearted sexual attraction in a place where there WAS. you don't see me go into a gay bar on date night, do you? it would be wrong of me to IMPOSE on gays, by my being straight. i wouldn't want to mislead anyone. so i DON'T GO to gay bars on date night.
am i oppressed by gays because of this? should i be MAD at gays if i go on date night, and get hit on?
answer that, and be honest with yourself when you do.
afterward, we can continue. try not to get angry, as i'm not trying to provoke you. rather, i am trying to get you to understand where the feminists went wrong with this one, by thinking that EVERYWHERE should be their way, ALL THE TIME.
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Adrius
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posted July 28, 2014 01:26 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 13:27, 28 Jul 2014.
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@Ivor: Yes the world is a ****ed up place, and playing by its established rules (no going out into that area bla bla) helps you not get hurt.
We all get that.
I wonder how far women had gotten today if they had just accepted the world for what it once was though.
I see zero point in pointing out some alleged "shared blame". It's not gonna help women get less harassed and raped.
All it does is hurt them.
If we talked as much about how to make these "beasts" (actually men like you and me, but it feels nice to distance yourself) control themselves as we talked about controlling how women dress and act... sigh.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 28, 2014 01:27 PM |
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Tsar, sometimes there is a very thin line between being aware of the reality and justifying it. I'm sure most women are very well aware of the disturbances they can face and act accordingly (see Ad's cartoon) but what is considered provocative is quite subjective and based on social norms, (a dress considered regular in London may look like a bikini to some man from a conservative Muslim neighborhood here). Sometimes saying "hey, this is the world we live in" may result in re-establishing those norms, instead of changing them in a better direction. Men have no problem controlling themselves on beaches, right? Why, because then, it is considered NORMal to walk around even almost naked. Expecting the same thing in the streets isn't exactly dreaming of a distant utopia.
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fred79
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posted July 28, 2014 01:29 PM |
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adrius, nobody was raped. you are blowing this WAY out of proportion, just like the feminists did. they did the equivalent of sticking their asses out, and getting mad when somebody smacked them. you keep your ass IN, if you don't want it smacked. they took a playful thing that people enjoy, and they(and the media) turned it into something WRONG.
would you say that office flirting is ALSO wrong?
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 28, 2014 01:33 PM |
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Quote:
Sometimes saying "hey, this is the world we live in" may result in re-establishing those norms, instead of changing them in a better direction.
You can't make them control themselves, forcing others to adhere to your morals, to bludgeon them till they agree with you is wrong, and it doesn't work.
The world is a messed up place in my view, this is not shared by all, I have no right to force my morals on others.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 28, 2014 01:35 PM |
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We are not talking about forcing morals of any kind, we are talking about getting harassed. That is physically being abusive.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 28, 2014 01:40 PM |
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I was responding to a particular point rather than the overarching theme.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Adrius
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posted July 28, 2014 01:42 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 13:42, 28 Jul 2014.
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@Ivor: How is that even comparable? Is comic cons a place designed exclusively for males to find dates or a one-night stand? Is it designed only for gay men?
Come on, comic cons are for everyone who enjoys comics and video games, turns out women do that too.
But yes, it would be wrong of you to try and impose your rules in a gay bar, but we both know it's different.
Nobody was raped but people are raped because of these damn patterns of "keep your ass in" that somehow justifies smacking it. Can't you see the similarity? Is that light-hearted sexual playfulness?
Office flirting? Depends on your idea of flirting, getting kinda worried.
EDIT:
Thunderstorm here, tuning out.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 28, 2014 01:46 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:48, 28 Jul 2014.
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I was particularly replying to this part of what you wrote, maybe I should have quoted it, but all the other posts in between weren't there when I started to write mine:
Tsar said:
Many men are, 'beasts' as you claim, it would be wrong to just ignore that. Dressing provocatively as much as it pains me to say it, is asking for it, since you're in your own little bubble pretending the world isn't what it is. You sexually provoke the animals in our society then the consequences are pretty obvious. It's not about right or wrong, or how men ought pretend to behave around a woman with less than a tea-cloth worth of clothing on her. It's about being wise, being able to foresee the consequences of your actions.
artu said:
Tsar, sometimes there is a very thin line between being aware of the reality and justifying it. I'm sure most women are very well aware of the disturbances they can face and act accordingly (see Ad's cartoon) but what is considered provocative is quite subjective and based on social norms, (a dress considered regular in London may look like a bikini to some man from a conservative Muslim neighborhood here). Sometimes saying "hey, this is the world we live in" may result in re-establishing those norms, instead of changing them in a better direction. Men have no problem controlling themselves on beaches, right? Why, because then, it is considered NORMal to walk around even almost naked. Expecting the same thing in the streets isn't exactly dreaming of a distant utopia.
Btw, can you link the original thread with that Japanese story, the "Maybe it will help explain why I was so affected by this thread." part got me curious.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 28, 2014 01:46 PM |
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Quote:
control themselves as we talked about controlling how women dress and act... sigh.
That's just it Ad, we have to realize that those of us with a shred of intelligence are the ones that have to adapt in order to co-exist with those that aren't, and not the other way around. For the simple reason that we can, and they can't. I'm not saying that we should tolerate illegal acts or even treat them leniently, I'm saying that we should put every effort into prevention, and reducing the probability. If that means covering our bodies or not walking down dark alleys then that is the price of harmony, and it is extracted from those that can pay it.
Thunderstorm passed through here as well.
Artu: The Japanese story was a response to Mvass' claim that men can control themselves, and I claimed they must first understand the true nature of their action, but most don't. It illustrates that some men don't initially see their actions as bad, or even consider it, they see it as merely harmless fun. What we label as harassment catcalling for example is not done because the male is evil or wants to keep women in their place or w/e, it's for a laugh, and on some level natural. Some might not part with this for the sake of our morals on how to behave around a woman who leaves very little to the imagination.
But this is a response to Mvass is post, thus needs that context.
Here. Mind you it's irrelevant.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 28, 2014 01:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:55, 28 Jul 2014.
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Yes, but I got curious about the original thread and I want to read it, can you link the thread itself please?
Edit: Thanks.
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fred79
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posted July 28, 2014 02:05 PM |
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Adrius said:
@Ivor: How is that even comparable? Is comic cons a place designed exclusively for males to find dates or a one-night stand? Is it designed only for gay men?
Come on, comic cons are for everyone who enjoys comics and video games, turns out women do that too.
But yes, it would be wrong of you to try and impose your rules in a gay bar, but we both know it's different.
Nobody was raped but people are raped because of these damn patterns of "keep your ass in" that somehow justifies smacking it. Can't you see the similarity? Is that light-hearted sexual playfulness?
Office flirting? Depends on your idea of flirting, getting kinda worried.
EDIT:
Thunderstorm here, tuning out.
were you supposed to address me with this?
ok. i DID say that both females AND males enjoyed these kinds of things, and i could see it as a "date night" for both of them...
you know, if you're going to keep demonizing simple things, i won't be able to continue this with you. you are apparently too close-minded about what i am trying to say. you are like a witch-hunter at this point. you see witches everywhere you turn.
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