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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 11, 2015 07:54 PM |
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3lion said:
I remember the days when I was playing Heroes IV and I see myself reading much more than actually playing. There was ALOT of text in H4. I hardly imagine a new generation of players reading text in the video games.
I didn't ask why isn't Team Erwin using the Heroes 4 format of storytelling, I asked why it doesn't use this talented writer who wrote the most celebrated stories in the series lol
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 11, 2015 08:06 PM |
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3lion said:
I remember the days when I was playing Heroes IV and I see myself reading much more than actually playing. There was ALOT of text in H4. I hardly imagine a new generation of players reading text in the video games.
It is both foolish and unwise not to read. This isn't a first person shooter to just rush in.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted September 11, 2015 09:05 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
3lion said:
I remember the days when I was playing Heroes IV and I see myself reading much more than actually playing. There was ALOT of text in H4. I hardly imagine a new generation of players reading text in the video games.
It is both foolish and unwise not to read. This isn't a first person shooter to just rush in.
Absolutely agree
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 11, 2015 09:19 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
It is both foolish and unwise not to read. This isn't a first person shooter to just rush in.
A wise person once said "RUSH NOW, THINK LATER!"
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted September 11, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:21, 11 Sep 2015.
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Huh I guess the guy using the gamer tag ASHAAAANZ was working at ubisoft after all.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 11, 2015 10:36 PM |
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Who and where is this guy/gal you speak of?
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted September 11, 2015 10:39 PM |
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Tis a joke of the FPS nature. 
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 11, 2015 11:54 PM |
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2015 12:55 AM |
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Edited by nik312 at 01:04, 12 Sep 2015.
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Ok, so now, that I’ve seen two dev streams, some recordings and had a peek on beta myself I can compile a report on some things that I think are rather worrysome in current game direction. I didn’t have time for extensive testing, but as I am a rare representative of competitive Heroes III players (both competitive offline and competitive online) and know some things about competetive Heroes IV-V I think my viewpoint should be of interest anyway.
So, firstly, the main part of the game that will most probably decide its long-term success was not available in beta, though we had a peek on it during second dev stream. I’m talking of course about RMG. Why I call it the main part of the game? Because on custom maps the balance is decided fully by the creator of the map. And the more power Map Editor holds the more balancing responsibility is transferred from developers to the map creator. But overall game balance with all the features taken into consideration can be seen only on random maps. That is where developers have to take full responsibility of their gameplay. What objects are placed where and under which guards, what guards are considered equal for the same reward, what is built in town by default, what is the structure of passages. All that is what decides inter-faction balance just as much as obvious things like creatures, buildings and heroes.
So, what bothers me already? Quite a few things.
1) Hall of Heroes is not built by default, heroes cost extreme amounts of gold and only 4 additional heroes are available each week. Which means that developers encourage the style of play with less heroes. In any classic Heroes game you can recognize a newbie by a number of heroes he plays with. A strong player in previous Heroes games always hits the maximum hero limit early in the game, because that way he boosts the speed of scouting, collecting resources and clearing the map using chains of heroes. Newbie will casually run around with 1-4 heroes and instead of taking hard battles early on will build money bringing structures. But complex management of multiple heroes is what defines skill of individual player and strategical depth of the game. If it is unneeded in effective gameplay, the game will be boring for skillful players. Hall of Heroes should probably built by default (that will help with p.2 as well), heroes should probably cost at least a bit less (though not necessarily if p.2 is solved) and you definetely need a possibility to hire more that 5 heroes a week (maybe without army and only after dismissing some others, but it is crucial in lategame to always have an opportunity to buy at least some hero for any reason you need).
2) On beta maps that I’ve seen the development seemed quite slow. This was partly due to p. 1, but partly due to very poor maps and inadequate guards for some objects and object groups. Heroes are a slow game from the start to make them even slower. To avoid that RMG should place objects more densely and with more money fights. Also, a guaranteed stable in starting area could help the problem a little.
3) Restriction of 1 non-battle spell per turn is… strange. That greatly limits the complexity of chains that you can make. I don’t know all of non-battle spells there are, but late stages of the game could be SO much more interesting without such strict limits. If there are spells like dimension door (instant travel), you’ll want to do stuff like “send a hero, jump with DD, take an object behind mountains, return with town portal, transfer army to next hero, chain the army to another side of the map, jump with DD, return with town portal, chain army to main hero, make his turn”. Especially interesting it is with artifacts that give high-level map spells, which means that you can use those spells even with newly bought heroes (if you bring them the artifacts). And btw the chains could be even more interesting if you could choose at least with some skill or artifact which castle to teleport to.
4) Diplomacy. In beta it was obviously overpowered. Getting army from the map is a fine concept unless it depends so highly on RNG of monster aggressiveness. Getting 25 arenite golems day 1 is pretty OP. With more info about the algorithm we could understand better if there is a problem and how to fix it.
Now, just some views, that can help with developing the RMG. To keep interest in the process on all stages, the game should divide into noticeably different phases with length of each no more than 1 week (when creature growth happens). For example smth like this: the very beginning of the game – taking low-level money banks and chest guards for a few thousand gold each fight, then as you get some crucial stacks – harder money fights and some fights for high-level dwellings (closer to end of week 1). Week 2 – hardest gold banks, medium artifact fights, maybe some hard fights for army boost (maybe via diplomacy or just banks for army or just some super-dwellings) , week 3 is the week of hardest fights against neutrals there are (top artifacts, tens of thousands gold, huge army boosts e.t.c). Weeks 4+ is probable contact with opponent. The phases can be different from those, but they should be distinctive and short enough not to get bored inside each one.
This is just some very basic insight, more can be said when RMG is available for playtest. I hope that I delivered at least to some extent a new/helpful viewpoint. Though it is hard to mention everything in a form of forum post. Hopefully, it will serve for the best anyway 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 12, 2015 01:06 AM |
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Well some could consider Dimension Door + Fly + Town Portal spells to be even cheating. It it just a new approach to ban such tactics (hence H4 had only Town Gate, and even that only allowed to teleport to nearest town).
As for Diplomacy, it is a still ongoing issue. We'll see how they'll do it after the release.
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2015 01:39 AM |
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Quote:
Well some could consider Dimension Door + Fly + Town Portal spells to be even cheating
It's not cheating if you both can use it. And it's not like the one, who finds it first has automatically won. But it brings that extremely cool level of complexity to each turn, that makes lategame especially compelling and skill-based.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 12, 2015 10:19 AM |
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nik312 said:
Quote:
Well some could consider Dimension Door + Fly + Town Portal spells to be even cheating
It's not cheating if you both can use it. And it's not like the one, who finds it first has automatically won. But it brings that extremely cool level of complexity to each turn, that makes lategame especially compelling and skill-based.
Well I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I do disagree with you 100 %. Reason is that we come from two completely opposite game styles: You play competitive optimized games, I play non-competitive games that focus on hero development and where the map layout is a crucial part of the game experience. Hence, I would never waste time on playing random maps, and therefore spells like fly and dimension door completely disrupts the intentions of the map maker and thus defeats the purpose of the game.
I'm just saying this to point out that the Heroes game series spans very different traditions, and if developers want to allow for both these game styles (which, admittedly, has not really been the case since at least H5, and possibly even H4), they need to keep this in mind.
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What will happen now?
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nik312
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2015 11:10 AM |
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Edited by nik312 at 11:22, 12 Sep 2015.
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Quote:
therefore spells like fly and dimension door completely disrupts the intentions of the map maker and thus defeats the purpose of the game.
That's why you have Map Editor with an option to ban certain spells, heroes, items, e.t.c. You know, the kind of luxury, that RMG doesn't have. If you didn't ban DD or Angel Wings - not the game's problem. If DD is not available/highly restricted inside the game and therefore complexity of chains is limited - it is a feature of the game, that cannot be undone
And it's not like your map will be disrupted by multiple usage of map spells and will not be disrupted by single ones.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2015 12:11 PM |
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I thought the use of adventure map spells was restricted to 1 per hero, not per player. It is certainly more limited than spamming DD all the time, but at least it is possible to perform that trick with portalling back and giving/chaining the army to another hero. Interesting strategy btw
I agree that the current price of heroes is a bit high. I would lower their initial price, but raise the cost of hiring with each additional hero (like in H5).
____________
Can you make a faction including these units?
Join the Finding Harmony competition 2.0!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 12, 2015 12:51 PM |
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nik312 said:
That's why you have Map Editor with an option to ban certain spells, heroes, items, e.t.c. You know, the kind of luxury, that RMG doesn't have. If you didn't ban DD or Angel Wings - not the game's problem. If DD is not available/highly restricted inside the game and therefore complexity of chains is limited - it is a feature of the game, that cannot be undone
And it's not like your map will be disrupted by multiple usage of map spells and will not be disrupted by single ones.
Ok now I perhaps understand you better, and yes with that I certainly agree. The only way the game can please both groups of fans - those who prefer (shorter) competitive gamestyles *and* those who prefer (longer) adventurous gamestyles - is by having all features in, and then make options, either through the map editor, or better even custom options when starting the game (think WoG) that allows the player to pick whatever settings he prefers. I have long been quite vocal about how the lack of a "proper" (H3 style) town portal killed an important part of the game for me in H4/H5, because this ment long and tedious travel times on larger maps when transporting troops etc.
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romanov77
Known Hero
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posted September 12, 2015 01:30 PM |
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This "Lost Tales of Axeoth" thing has to be the best news about HoMM in the whole last decade.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 12, 2015 01:43 PM |
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Frankly i'd trade away those tales from the dead world for The Rise and Fall of Tuidhana of Tarlad. I'm pissed that we probably wont get a campaign out of that ever.
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted September 12, 2015 01:44 PM |
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This is contradictory.
You can allow town portal but if you do so, how many chance this spell have to appear ? I mean, you aren t forced to ban Town Portal (with H7) cause it stucks the travel of heroes and on the opposite this spells is a must have winning game.
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted September 12, 2015 01:46 PM |
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This is contradictory.
You can allow town portal but if you do so, how many chance this spell have to appear ? I mean, you aren t forced to ban Town Portal (with H7) cause it stucks the travel of heroes and on the opposite this spells is a must have winning game.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted September 12, 2015 01:53 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Frankly i'd trade away those tales from the dead world for The Rise and Fall of Tuidhana of Tarlad. I'm pissed that we probably wont get a campaign out of that ever.
Geez
Heroes of Might and Magic IV said:
I had to peel the Deadwood Staff from Malvich's hand, and even after everything I felt a pang of regret for having to kill him. Today, the Kingdom of Nekross became a little weaker. This blasted staff better be worth it!
Just as I had sensed the essence of Life within the Life Shield, this artifact was pulsing with a negative energy that made it painful for me to hold it in my living left hand.
As I examined it I immediately noticed that something was missing - a headpiece. The power of this artifact wasn't complete! But how much more power could it possibly possess?
No wonder Malvich wouldn't give it up! He must have spent several lifetimes looking for that headpiece. It would have given him the power to rule the world. If I had been in Malvich's shoes, wouldn't I have kept the Deadwood Staff too?
But then I would be dead right now.
Hadrin approached.
"What now, Master?" he said.
I hefted the Deadwood Staff over my shoulder and said, "Home to Nekorrum. Immediately! Leave a garrison here to secure these lands for Nekross. We'll only take a token force."
To myself, I swore that I would learn the name of the one my Master served even if it meant I had to travel through Kalibarr's secret portal myself!
Ashan said:
Tuidhana eternal!
*casts random spell*
Well, I overreacted a little but there is a huge difference between how story was told in HoMM4 and in HoMM5-7.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
