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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 15, 2015 06:35 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Because usually if you don't buy the game, you have no idea what its current state is. Of course if you see the game at your friends... watch many gameplays etc., it is OK.
But sometimes it seems to me some people have seen the beta only and after then they just keep repeating "this game is a crap, fire Ubi".
There are plenty of ways to experience the game without buying it 
Antalyan said:
Also I think Ubilimbic team should follow the advice of people who actually play(ed) the game. People claiming: "do this, this and this, and then I might consider buying it" - this will not help much.
I didn't see anyone saying that. I won't buy the game, because it's core (that won't be changed) is bad, imo.
Antalyan said:
I expect many people to disagree with me. But tell me - if you have no belief in this game and you don't believe it can ever be good, why you are here? To share your thoughts how is everything in H7 bad?
To try to change something for future of the franchise. I still love the series, and will love to see good heroes game. But looking at current state of the franchise makes it hard for me to be quiet. And, to be honest, most of the people who argued against H7, always talked about issues that are present on meta level, not only in current game.
Antalyan said:
This helps nothing here. Ubisoft is responsible for decisions regarding to money and most of development decisions. You adress your dissatisfaction with them on SC. But here we are trying to provide different improvements for the people who are still playing H7 or who want to play it. To make the game better. And if you don't know the game much, if you don't know how it improved, you may hardly help.
I will say it plain and simple: I have no intention in helping improve, or rather salvage H7. I want to help the franchise survive it's darkest hour, and return to it's former glory. That is the reason I will keep talking about Ubilol's fails, Limbic fails, Black Hole fails. I believe that you can learn a lot from those fails.
So all those comments: 'it is funny that you comment on H7 and you don't own it' are snow for me, because I try to have brighter future for the franchise.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 06:36 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:37, 15 Dec 2015.
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There is no better reason to say something when it's true. If it helps or not is another story. Besides, it is not our job to "help" the game, it's theirs - the devs. They're the ones that get paid for it and they're the ones who have to cope with all the criticism their product receives, good / bad / constructive or otherwise.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 06:42 PM |
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Edited by Bitula at 18:45, 15 Dec 2015.
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Skillwheel etc OK, I don't agree but OK. But I mean some not playing the game state that AI is crap. This is sooooo, uhm  shocking, and feels like purposeless sabotage: the "I told you the game is crap, now it's too late" mentality. That's why i asked whether it is true or not from people who played after latest patch.
Edit: And comparing AI against H5 QT-s AI is not fair.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 15, 2015 06:45 PM |
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bitula, i like how you say 'played' the game and not 'bought' the game  There is a difference.
Edit
bitula said:
Edit: And comparing AI against H5 QT-s AI is not fair.
And why is that?
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 06:50 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
bitula, i like how you say 'played' the game and not 'bought' the game There is a difference.
Edit
bitula said:
Edit: And comparing AI against H5 QT-s AI is not fair.
And why is that?
I said not playing the game. (Not playing continuosly to check against patches and have a realistic oppinion.)
QT-s AI came in a very late stage. Anyway crap doesn't mean not as good as QT-AI. It means just crap.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 15, 2015 06:53 PM |
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Bitula said:
QT-s AI came in a very late stage. Anyway crap doesn't mean not as good as QT-AI. It means just crap.
Yeah, Q's AI came late, but was done by one man! Limbic has a team that works on AI. I'd agree that it is not fair to compare, but because it will mean that Q is on the same level as Limbic's AI team, and that clearly is not the case. He did fantastic job alone, and that is something!
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Edited by Bitula at 19:03, 15 Dec 2015.
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frostymuaddib said:
Bitula said:
QT-s AI came in a very late stage. Anyway crap doesn't mean not as good as QT-AI. It means just crap.
Yeah, Q's AI came late, but was done by one man! Limbic has a team that works on AI. I'd agree that it is not fair to compare, but because it will mean that Q is on the same level as Limbic's AI team, and that clearly is not the case. He did fantastic job alone, and that is something!
OK, I found H5 final product AI sufficient, so no opinion about QT-s AI. But you can't center the world around him, maybe he is a genius. And why do you think he is interested in working for Limbic? This whole why didn’t you apply QT is just a nonsense, LOL. You can’t be serious about this.
Edit: anyway AFFAIR he wrote the original H5 AI as well (or partially) so it was just additional work with lots of background knowledge.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 15, 2015 07:01 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
Antalyan said:
Also I think Ubilimbic team should follow the advice of people who actually play(ed) the game. People claiming: "do this, this and this, and then I might consider buying it" - this will not help much.
I didn't see anyone saying that. I won't buy the game, because it's core (that won't be changed) is bad, imo.
I did as you could guess.
Antalyan said:
This helps nothing here. Ubisoft is responsible for decisions regarding to money and most of development decisions. You adress your dissatisfaction with them on SC. But here we are trying to provide different improvements for the people who are still playing H7 or who want to play it. To make the game better. And if you don't know the game much, if you don't know how it improved, you may hardly help.
I will say it plain and simple: I have no intention in helping improve, or rather salvage H7. I want to help the franchise survive it's darkest hour, and return to it's former glory. That is the reason I will keep talking about Ubilol's fails, Limbic fails, Black Hole fails. I believe that you can learn a lot from those fails.
I can understand you and many others want to help the Heroes as the whole series and surely you don't have to like Heroes 7 to do it.
But there are two problems which reflect your effort as, in my opinion, pointless:
- If Heroes 7 is not successful enough, I am strongly worried about Heroes future, about its budget and plans, if even any (as I explained before, Ubi usually invests only in projects they expect do be profitable - and who would believe in another Heroes made by Ubi after two failures?) So even if you don't like H7, you could probably be interested in its success and you could help with some things to help to improve it.
- There is only Limbic at this site, no Ubi (at least as I know). But future of Heroes (another possible games in future, except H7) depends on Ubi. They do the most of main decisions, they invest money, they choose developer. So I think you are on a bit a wrong place if you want to help with the series and not with H7.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 15, 2015 07:06 PM |
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Bitula said:
Edit: And comparing AI against H5 QT-s AI is not fair.
not fair? of course it's fair, the Quantomas AI already exists, in fact not only is it fair but there's also no excuse, Heroes 5 can receive its valid criticism for having crap AI initially but Heroes 6 and 7 cannot use that as an excuse for failing to match the Quantomas AI, because that's the benchmark lol
Quantomas said:
It is the same as with this wretched argument that Heroes V had as many bugs as H6. This convinces nobody and sounds like a lame excuse for foot dragging that diminishes the franchise. You have to say that this state is unacceptable and major bugs have to be fixed as soon as possible. Full stop.
the AI is there, either match it, or else why should the end user give the inferior new game a free pass,
it could have been added to H6 and perhaps even H7 practically free of charge if anyone was aware or bothered to ask him, but instead they choose to reinvent the wheel lol
what would be unfair would be to compare Heroes 1 or 2 AI to it where the technology of the Quantomas AI didn't exist yet, and the standards were not as high, but by god are they high now lol
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 15, 2015 07:12 PM |
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Antalyan said:
- If Heroes 7 is not successful enough, I am strongly worried about Heroes future, about its budget and plans, if even any (as I explained before, Ubi usually invests only in projects they expect do be profitable - and who would believe in another Heroes made by Ubi after two failures?) So even if you don't like H7, you could probably be interested in its success and you could help with some things to help to improve it.
I see that this way:
1. Bad game must not be successful. If it is, that will be a signal for Ubisnow (or any other publisher) that they can do whatever they like. (I can wrap snow in the box, and peopel will buy it)
2. Heroes 6 was a financial success (Ubifail said that), and I contributed to that (bought the game). And still, I get even bigger snow than H6 with H7.
3. By pointing out bad stuff in the game, bad statictics, bad critics you are helping the game.
Antalyan said:
- There is only Limbic at this site, no Ubi (at least as I know). But future of Heroes (another possible games in future, except H7) depends on Ubi. They do the most of main decisions, they invest money, they choose developer. So I think you are on a bit a wrong place if you want to help with the series and not with H7.
There was Ubifail, but I think they left soon after the game release. As for being on the wrong place, I disagree. What are my options? Here they are:
1. Shadow Council - on site dedicated to H7, where every criticism is deleted.
2. Official Forums on Ubisnow - where users who say something against the Ubi's games are banned forever
3. Heroes Community - forum dedicated to M&M franchise.
To me, there is no choice here.
EDIT:
Bitula said:
OK, I found H5 final product AI sufficient, so no opinion about QT-s AI. But you can't center the world around him, maybe he is a genius.
Of course I can center the world around him, when we are talking about Heroes AI. He gave us the best AI for heroes game. Or should I center the world around crappy AI of H6?
Bitula said:
And why do you think he is interested in working for Limbic? This whole why didn’t you apply QT is just a nonsense, LOL. You can’t be serious about this.
I'm not sure I understood this...
Bitula said:
Edit: anyway AFFAIR he wrote the original H5 AI as well (or partially) so it was just additional work with lots of background knowledge.
Still, you cannot compare one man with a whole team.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 15, 2015 07:21 PM |
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I guess it depends on your opinion about this game then.
I think this game has a chance for me to be great finally, if Limbic will be able to fix it - and if Ubi gives them money and time to do it (both these things worry be, though).
There are many things I like it for (maybe I will write them here once) and I don't want to scrap this game just because it was released half-finished. (but this game is surely not for everyone, in this point was gomaki right).
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 07:29 PM |
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Edited by Bitula at 19:29, 15 Dec 2015.
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frostymuaddib said:
Of course I can center the world around him, when we are talking about Heroes AI. He gave us the best AI for heroes game. Or should I center the world around crappy AI of H6?
Bitula said:
And why do you think he is interested in working for Limbic? This whole why didn’t you apply QT is just a nonsense, LOL. You can’t be serious about this.
I'm not sure I understood this...
This is not how things work: hire a person from a rival company. Maybe it is not even possible because of contractual endorsements. Anyway how do you know he wasn't contacted. Maybe he was and he rejected it. Or do you have some specific info? Or you are just speculating?
frostymuaddib said:
Still, you cannot compare one man with a whole team.
What team? I don't think Limbic has more than 2 or3 AI developers. Maybe just one: Oak.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 15, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Bitula said:
This is not how things work: hire a person from a rival company. Maybe it is not even possible because of contractual endorsements. Anyway how do you know he wasn't contacted. Maybe he was and he rejected it. Or do you have some specific info? Or you are just speculating?
lol, he himself offered up the AI to Ubisoft free of charge, only requesting a license to work on Heroes 5 as payment, but Erwin ignored and eventually rejected his proposal, saying that the contractor was perfectly capable of handling it lol
Limbic have been directly asked why didn't you bring Quantomas on board many times, but they always ignore or dodge the question lol
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 15, 2015 07:40 PM |
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And the last words for today - how I see the game. I would like to find out why many people dislike this game so much...
Statement: "H7 has very bad reviews and numbers"
My opinion/explanation: H7 was, as most of Ubi games, released strongly unfinished. The one thing is that Ubi ignored all the fans telling them to delay it. But another one is that bad start does not have to reflect the final game quality. And if you look into fan reviews and opinions, most of them do no criticise the gameplay. The game is usual not recommended cause of crashing and bugs or AI. And this is what can (hopefully) be fixed.
S: "H7 has bad graphics"
M: The style is different (as well as engine). But I don't think you say good or bad, just different.
S: "H7 has stupid heroes specializations"
M: They are truly bad but they were promised to be fixed.
S: "H7 has lack of interesting units abilities"
M: It has but it should not be so difficult for Limbic to add them so hopefully in the future - people ask for them a lot.
S: "H7 has stupid AI". "Simultaenous turns are not good implemented."
M: Not worse than H6 - but this is not a good quality indicator.
However, they are hopefully working on it and dicsussing it so we will see.
S: "H7 has totally bad skillsystem with too much restrictions".
M: Again - much better than H6. I think it was simply too free and they decided to add restrictions - but they added too much of them. We will see if something good can happen in this way. It would help to improve the replayability.
This was just my rough revision how I see the game. Sure many things I have not mentioned and I might add them later. Also many other minor or major things are in my opinion missing (the best described in broui's http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1348110-Going-Forward).
This game makes me ask: why all these things are not in the game (yet?) And will they ever be? We will see. But I see no reason to hate this game so much as many people do.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 15, 2015 07:42 PM |
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verriker said:
Bitula said:
This is not how things work: hire a person from a rival company. Maybe it is not even possible because of contractual endorsements. Anyway how do you know he wasn't contacted. Maybe he was and he rejected it. Or do you have some specific info? Or you are just speculating?
lol, he himself offered up the AI to Ubisoft free of charge, only requesting a license to work on Heroes 5 as payment, but Erwin ignored and eventually rejected his proposal, saying that the contractor was perfectly capable of handling it lol
Limbic have been directly asked why didn't you bring Quantomas on board many times, but they always ignore or dodge the question lol
That is very strange and for me unbelievable.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 07:54 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 19:57, 15 Dec 2015.
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one thousand, two hundred and eighty-two pages(so far).
you guys ever hear the saying, "bad publicity is still publicity"?
the real question is, do you all STILL, AFTER ALL YOU'VE SEEN, PAID FOR, PUT UP WITH, BEEN RIPPED OFF BY, AND LISTENED TO, want to promote ubisoft by filling page after page about their work?
especially after their "legal disclaimer"?
and don't give me that snow about "we have a right to snow about anything we want". you're just promoting them, ffs. the company who, in their every action towards the heroes series(and other games), and their customers, are saying: "snow YOU. PAY US. BUY OUR snow. AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. snow YOU. PAY US. BUY OUR snow."
is any of this sinking in yet, or should i expect more from, say, a fish?
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 07:59 PM |
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Antalyan said:
verriker said:
lol, he himself offered up the AI to Ubisoft free of charge, only requesting a license to work on Heroes 5 as payment, but Erwin ignored and eventually rejected his proposal, saying that the contractor was perfectly capable of handling it lol
Limbic have been directly asked why didn't you bring Quantomas on board many times, but they always ignore or dodge the question lol
That is very strange and for me unbelievable.
WTF, it's been known for years, it's been talked about it right here on HC and, yet, is hard to believe?
This explains why so many discussion have the same trail as the H6 discussions from years ago.
(bolded it for gomaki)
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 08:04 PM |
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Isn't Quantomas's mod based on H5 AI? I mean hi didn't make it from scratch. Didn't he?
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Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 15, 2015 08:07 PM |
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3lion said:
Isn't Quantomas's mod based on H5 AI? I mean hi didn't make it from scratch. Didn't he?
yes he did, it was a complete rewrite of the AI from the ground up lol
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 15, 2015 08:08 PM |
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Bitula said:
What team? I don't think Limbic has more than 2 or3 AI developers. Maybe just one: Oak.
If that is true, than that says a lot about Limbic.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
