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3lion
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 08:09 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 20:10, 15 Dec 2015.
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verriker said:
3lion said:
Isn't Quantomas's mod based on H5 AI? I mean hi didn't make it from scratch. Didn't he?
yes he did, it was a complete rewrite of the AI from the ground up lol
Well, it's... impressive!
I'm signing under the question above then.
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Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 08:11 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
Bitula said:
What team? I don't think Limbic has more than 2 or3 AI developers. Maybe just one: Oak.
If that is true, than that says a lot about Limbic.
It says a lot about development budget
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Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 15, 2015 08:15 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 20:20, 15 Dec 2015.
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Antalyan said:
verriker said:
Bitula said:
This is not how things work: hire a person from a rival company. Maybe it is not even possible because of contractual endorsements. Anyway how do you know he wasn't contacted. Maybe he was and he rejected it. Or do you have some specific info? Or you are just speculating?
lol, he himself offered up the AI to Ubisoft free of charge, only requesting a license to work on Heroes 5 as payment, but Erwin ignored and eventually rejected his proposal, saying that the contractor was perfectly capable of handling it lol
Limbic have been directly asked why didn't you bring Quantomas on board many times, but they always ignore or dodge the question lol
That is very strange and for me unbelievable.
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=36851&PID=1037007#focus
Quantomas said:
Erwan on the other hand completely ignored what we had. Technically, all it required was an Ok and to set the patching process in motion. To his defense it can be said, that things might have been a bit more complicated from his point of view, because Ubisoft was about to contract Black Hole instead of Nival. But by no means should that have been an obstacle that couldn't have been overcome. What we had back then was practically the same AI that was released at the beginning of this year, and we could have merged it with the 3.1 sources proper and would have had a far superior patch without the omissions from 3.1. If we could have had this release in 2008 we would have made this game to fly to WOG heights! [...]
For me, this is very likely my last effort to help with this installment of Heroes. I will continue to develop and upgrade Heroes V until we finally have a worthy 3.2 patch, for this game to shine as it should have long ago, to honor Fabrice and Xhane. I also made a request to Ubisoft to develop a commercial expansion for Heroes V. I haven't heard back from them in three months, if you VIPs can please make this a part of your lobbying effort. Ubisoft and the Heroes franchise only stand to gain from this, I didn't ask them for money, only for a license.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted December 15, 2015 08:15 PM |
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3lion said:
It says a lot about development budget
As far as we know, H7 received all the money it needs 
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 08:25 PM |
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Edited by Aionb at 20:29, 15 Dec 2015.
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Well, that's history folks (Q, his AI and BullshySoft)!
And those who don't know the history are repeating it - hence the boring discussions in H6 style: HC is small and unimportant, you don't speak for all the fans, are only vocal minority, those who like H6/7 are silent, it has potential, it has to be patched etc. etc. etc. Bleah! It's like going back in time, only with different nicknames.
Sadly, the facts are also the ones from the H6 times. And I don't know what to expect. As I've said before, I hope for the best but refrain from expecting it, 'cause I have no reason to believe in it. I'd like to be proven wrong, however ...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 08:26 PM |
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so, a fish then? got it.  
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 15, 2015 08:38 PM |
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Aionb said:
Well, that's history folks (Q, his AI and BullshySoft)!
And those who don't know the history are repeating it - hence the boring discussions in H6 style: HC is small and unimportant, you don't speak for all the fans, are only vocal minority, those who like H6/7 are silent, it has potential, it has to be patched etc. etc. etc. Bleah! It's like going back in time, only with different nicknames.
yup, it's pure short memories syndrome, the more things change, the more they stay the same lol
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted December 15, 2015 08:40 PM |
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I don't think a whole team of programmers under constant stress of buggy releases and negative criticism is an optimum force to create a good AI.
A single person unconstrained by time, stress or financial motivations is a much better for that. Especially if this person has special talent for it, which is not something you can buy, but must be born with.
I doubt Ubisoft will ever release an AI as good as Quantomas, unless maybe they start treating it as a long term investment used for multiple future heroes games. Now it seems they start over every time on too little budget and too strict deadlines.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Aionb at 20:54, 15 Dec 2015.
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fred79 said:
so, a fish then? got it.
Then we should use this topic as an advertisement possibility for the work of magnomagus.
Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 RC5 is out, people! Go get it!
Which reminds me: as long as team Erwinny is in charge, the future of Heroes is not in the hands of that company, but in the hands of magnomagus for the 3D fans or in the hands of the HotA, Succession Wars, VCMI teams (not to mention the rest) for the 2D fans. The future is bright
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 09:07 PM |
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Antalyan said:
- If Heroes 7 is not successful enough, I am strongly worried about Heroes future, about its budget and plans, if even any (as I explained before, Ubi usually invests only in projects they expect do be profitable - and who would believe in another Heroes made by Ubi after two failures?) So even if you don't like H7, you could probably be interested in its success and you could help with some things to help to improve it.
I don't really see what does it matter if they continue the series? I mean I like the series, but if the future games are gonna be like h6 or h7 it might as well die if we're never gonna see quality games anyway. By buying/supporting the game we send message that we don't care about quality, they can just serve crap like h6 or h7 and we'll throw our money at them regardless.
As for judging the game without buying it: I don't think I was wrong about single thing that I said about flaws of this game ages ago already during the development(I mean sure, more problems and flaws were revealed at beta/release when we knew more, but generally speaking). I brought up the problems on the marketing site(SC) and they disregarded all that along with suggestions on how to fix them(not to mention how they could've been implemented better since start). So yeah, I wouldn't put any faith in Limbic really making this game the "greatest" heroes game so far or even rising above mediocrity ever. The foundation is just too flawed and they are not willing to fix it, all they are willing to do is throw a few band-aids here and there possibly.
About the silent majority, we have this saying in my country that could be translated roughly: "The absent people are always wrong". You can't say one way or another how they feel about anything. Only way to give you direction on how majority thinks is by reading player reviews and checking scores they give. Currently H7 seems to stand at steady 5.0/10.0 on metacritic(yes it has been going down since the start despite the patches). On steam it has 38%/100% positive reviews, it has actually come up from the bottom which was 36% after the patches(it's more reliable however because it requires you to actually own the game to give review). By score it's below average so if you're going to say majority thinks something of this game, it's that it's not a good game.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 15, 2015 09:33 PM |
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TD said:
Antalyan said:
- If Heroes 7 is not successful enough, I am strongly worried about Heroes future, about its budget and plans, if even any (as I explained before, Ubi usually invests only in projects they expect do be profitable - and who would believe in another Heroes made by Ubi after two failures?) So even if you don't like H7, you could probably be interested in its success and you could help with some things to help to improve it.
I don't really see what does it matter if they continue the series? I mean I like the series, but if the future games are gonna be like h6 or h7 it might as well die if we're never gonna see quality games anyway. By buying/supporting the game we send message that we don't care about quality, they can just serve crap like h6 or h7 and we'll throw our money at them regardless.
As for judging the game without buying it: I don't think I was wrong about single thing that I said about flaws of this game ages ago already during the development(I mean sure, more problems and flaws were revealed at beta/release when we knew more, but generally speaking). I brought up the problems on the marketing site(SC) and they disregarded all that along with suggestions on how to fix them(not to mention how they could've been implemented better since start). So yeah, I wouldn't put any faith in Limbic really making this game the "greatest" heroes game so far or even rising above mediocrity ever. The foundation is just too flawed and they are not willing to fix it, all they are willing to do is throw a few band-aids here and there possibly.
About the silent majority, we have this saying in my country that could be translated roughly: "The absent people are always wrong". You can't say one way or another how they feel about anything. Only way to give you direction on how majority thinks is by reading player reviews and checking scores they give. Currently H7 seems to stand at steady 5.0/10.0 on metacritic(yes it has been going down since the start despite the patches). On steam it has 38%/100% positive reviews, it has actually come up from the bottom which was 36% after the patches(it's more reliable however because it requires you to actually own the game to give review). By score it's below average so if you're going to say majority thinks something of this game, it's that it's not a good game.
From the things I have seen yet, it seems that it is up to fans to make Heroes because Ubi would not do another Heroes and even if they did, it would not be bought by nerly anybody because nobody would believe them again - that's what I agree with.
However, even with these things, I don't see any reason why to ignore H7. Even if Limbic fails (what we cannot know now but we will know it in upcoming months), why some fans could NOT fix H7 as they improved H5? It should theoretically be possible - at least more than H6. And who knows, Ubilimbic might surprise us and support this game for so long time that all the promised things will be done or even more.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 15, 2015 09:51 PM |
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Antalyan said:
From the things I have seen yet, it seems that it is up to fans to make Heroes because Ubi would not do another Heroes and even if they did, it would not be bought by nerly anybody because nobody would believe them again - that's what I agree with.
However, even with these things, I don't see any reason why to ignore H7. Even if Limbic fails (what we cannot know now but we will know it in upcoming months), why some fans could NOT fix H7 as they improved H5? It should theoretically be possible - at least more than H6. And who knows, Ubilimbic might surprise us and support this game for so long time that all the promised things will be done or even more.
Well I would say that game needs good foundation which h7 lacks. With h5 the game looked like it has a lot of potential already in vanilla which came true with expansions. H7 on the other hand would need it's foundations changed and then there is the question why bother when you got better games that can continue to be modded. I have not seen one thing that's better in h7 compared to previous titles, making it kinda worthless game to mod(skills, spells, artifacts, specializations, music, graphics, you name it are all done better in previous games). H7 just failed to shine in any area at least in my eyes.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted December 15, 2015 09:54 PM |
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You have different eyes 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 16, 2015 10:20 AM |
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Skill system can make or break a game and this system is just meh. Same for magic system and level of hero customization. Those are all rather set in stone and while everything else can be fixed, the aforementioned will remain a source of disappointment.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2015 10:50 AM |
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Aionb said:
Antalyan said:
verriker said:
lol, he himself offered up the AI to Ubisoft free of charge, only requesting a license to work on Heroes 5 as payment, but Erwin ignored and eventually rejected his proposal, saying that the contractor was perfectly capable of handling it lol
Limbic have been directly asked why didn't you bring Quantomas on board many times, but they always ignore or dodge the question lol
That is very strange and for me unbelievable.
WTF, it's been known for years, it's been talked about it right here on HC and, yet, is hard to believe?
This explains why so many discussion have the same trail as the H6 discussions from years ago.
(bolded it for gomaki)
What are you talking about? Why should Limbic hire QT. QT works on his own project (after he abandoned H5) or applied by another company. It is at least unethical to grab a developer from other employer, but maybe even illegal. And again, why do you think QT can or even wants to work for limbic? I am not even sure he is in Germany. What does this has to do with he offered his code to UBI. Sure he did, because they gave him the source, which is not his property, so this is rather the surprising part. The only thing which would make sense, if QT himself applied for the job. Did he? I think, he didn’t. And I don’t think he rewrited his AI from scratch, please quote where he is claiming it.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2015 11:23 AM |
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Btw, why doesnt QT pass the source to magnomagus? Then magnomagus could ask a license from UBI to make additions to H5.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 16, 2015 11:38 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:46, 16 Dec 2015.
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If you bothered checking out his mod you would've known where he said it - Link.
Quantomas said:
This AI mod is a full rewrite of the AI inspired by the spirit of H3 and the chess computer program Fritz that has proven that a computer AI can be a match for world champions. It is meant to give the strategic gameplay of H5 a boost by playing against dedicated AI opponents who know the ropes. This AI does not cheat, on higher difficulty levels the only advantage it has is the lower starting resources for the player.
You can imagine a million scenarios for why Quantomas wasn't hired, but let's not kid ourselves here, the cold hard fact remains that Ubisoft never intended to. The guy offered his help free of charge in the past and he was rejected, it's not like Ubi wanted him on board but couldn't get him because reasons as you subtly imply.
And just observe the design philosophy he exposes for his AI. The guy knew EXACTLY what he was aiming for and he got there. By comparison, the H7 AI looks more like a hazardous experiment where the results are unexpected and surprising, and in the end proving to be a failure. Just take a look at what they said:
gomaki said:
'FPS AI works a certain routine: search, destroy, (optional: die trying), recover. TBS AI works with hundreds of variables thinking what move to do next. We run an utility-based AI meaning that the AI as a whole is working kind of like an organic being. It has sensors (like living beings have a few of those.. you know.. skin.. nose.. ears.. gut feeling, too) and these sensors determine the "need" or "usefulness" of a certain action to perform. The flow is as follows: sensor->utility->action scoring->decision. our AI takes the top decision, even though it could have a random factor inside, serving as a sort of "indecision" factor, but we decided against it. Actions can affect each other and the scoring, so it's an ever-changing thought process. Every time an action is performed, everything needs to be re-evaluated. Changing just one single thing ripples across the system like you would expect from the classic butterfly effect. Sometimes it surprises us, and I mean a positive surprise. Sometimes it starts doing retarded snow. it's a question of finding the right balance between values, wants and needs and objectives we want the AI to achieve that defines its actions. '
Doesn't it sound convoluted, extra complicated and bottom line amateurish 'we got no idea what we're doing'-kinda job when you take a look at the simplicity and brilliance of ONE single man pulling through the entire endeavor with nothing but sheer willpower and genuine love for the franchise and never a written paycheck?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted December 16, 2015 12:22 PM |
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Stevie said:
If you bothered checking out his mod you would've known where he said it - Link.
You can imagine a million scenarios for why Quantomas wasn't hired, but let's not kid ourselves here, the cold hard fact remains that Ubisoft never intended to. The guy offered his help free of charge in the past and he was rejected, it's not like Ubi wanted him on board but couldn't get him because reasons as you subtly imply.
But what does this has to do with why Limbic not hired QT? Since UBI can't hire Limbic and QT separetly, because Limbic works as a team.
Stevie said:
And just observe the design philosophy he exposes for his AI. The guy knew EXACTLY what he was aiming for and he got there.
Wasn't it (at least partially) his own code, which he rewritten/optimized? He was the AI developer at Nival. Wasn't he? So it is no wonder he knew exactly what to do. But maybe I am wrong, please correct me.
gomaki said:
'FPS AI works a certain routine: search, destroy, (optional: die trying), recover. TBS AI works with hundreds of variables thinking what move to do next. We run an utility-based AI meaning that the AI as a whole is working kind of like an organic being. It has sensors (like living beings have a few of those.. you know.. skin.. nose.. ears.. gut feeling, too) and these sensors determine the "need" or "usefulness" of a certain action to perform. The flow is as follows: sensor->utility->action scoring->decision. our AI takes the top decision, even though it could have a random factor inside, serving as a sort of "indecision" factor, but we decided against it. Actions can affect each other and the scoring, so it's an ever-changing thought process. Every time an action is performed, everything needs to be re-evaluated. Changing just one single thing ripples across the system like you would expect from the classic butterfly effect. Sometimes it surprises us, and I mean a positive surprise. Sometimes it starts doing retarded snow. it's a question of finding the right balance between values, wants and needs and objectives we want the AI to achieve that defines its actions. '
Doesn't it sound convoluted, extra complicated and bottom line amateurish 'we got no idea what we're doing'-kinda job when you take a look at the simplicity and brilliance of ONE single man pulling through the entire endeavor with nothing but sheer willpower and genuine love for the franchise and never a written paycheck?
I don't buy the mystification of TBS AI compexity. It's just a slogan for naive customers, who have no idea what this is about. TBS AI is much easier to implement then many think. But the sensor->utility->action scoring->decision architecture, though strange, doesn't seem invalid, all i can say is that this is not how I used to implement AI. And maybe it is just too ambitious for a game of this scale.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted December 16, 2015 12:26 PM |
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Quote:
Btw, why doesnt QT pass the source to magnomagus? Then magnomagus could ask a license from UBI to make additions to H5.
QT already asked Ubisoft permission for a commercial expansion to H5 and the answer was no. I'm sure that also implies not being allowed to pass the source code to other people.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 16, 2015 12:27 PM |
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Elvin said:
Skill system can make or break a game and this system is just meh. Same for magic system and level of hero customization. Those are all rather set in stone and while everything else can be fixed, the aforementioned will remain a source of disappointment.
It's what I told them from the get-go - I also could have handed them a better one, but as with Quantomas and the AI they knew better - and look where it brought us both with regard to Ubisoft and Limbic.
It's more like politics, not like people really want to do the best game possible.
The main problem is, that the design team obviously thought this would be be really good, although they got a lot of warnings and red lights and reasoning and whatnot.
A core redesign would follow Elemental: War of Magic road to Fallen Enchantress which I can't see happening.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
