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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2016 11:23 PM |
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I disagree with this.
I think, the world isn't what makes things good or bad or dull or interesting. The world can be crappy, you can still tell a good tale - and you can still make a good strategy game.
Of course it doesn't help when the world is "undead" - reanimated into the same state over and over again, not changing. As Frosty said - Griffin Eternal.
That's what the concept of TRASH is all about - you can heap cliché over cliché and still end with something cool.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted February 11, 2016 11:29 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:30, 11 Feb 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
I think, the world isn't what makes things good or bad or dull or interesting. The world can be crappy, you can still tell a good tale - and you can still make a good strategy game.
Of course it doesn't help when the world is "undead" - reanimated into the same state over and over again, not changing. As Frosty said - Griffin Eternal.
That's what the concept of TRASH is all about - you can heap cliché over cliché and still end with something cool.
That is where Ashan's unique(I know something original)system comes in. As many have mentioned Ashan's horrible lore seeps into everything; it influences both character dialogue and faction units as well as much more. So as it is possible to have some good story or strategy experience come out of a lame world in Ashan it simply is not because the bad lore decisions influence so much.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2016 11:30 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 23:31, 11 Feb 2016.
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I don't know how to describe my feelings about Ashan more precisely than to compare it to Dragon Age: Inqusition versa Dragon Age: Origins. DA:I tries to copy real life (figuratively) up to the point where things just go boring. So does Ashan.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 11, 2016 11:33 PM |
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Gryphs said:
So as it is possible to have some good story or strategy experience come out of a lame world in Ashan it simply is not because the bad lore decisions influence so much.
It even influences the freaking gameplay ffs, high amount of magic schools sure doesn't make the skill system easier, oh and there is all the trashy concepts such as "master your destiny" or "rush now, think later". Such antithesis to what Heroes once was, literally makes me want to vomit. I have no patience left, I will try to refrain to post in the h7 boards for a while because I might start to loose it too much.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted February 11, 2016 11:43 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:47, 11 Feb 2016.
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AlexSpl said:
I don't know how to describe my feelings about Ashan more precisely than to compare it to Dragon Age: Inqusition versa Dragon Age: Origins. DA:I tries to copy real life (figuratively) up to the point where things just go boring. So does Ashan.
They are not trying copy real life both games are guilty of trying to rip-off SoIaF/GoT's storytelling. This is a, in my opinion, disturbing trend in most fantasy worlds now. It seems like a lot of game world designers cannot help but "borrow" something from the series for their fantasy settings(the Orlesian noble's "Game" for instance, really? Come on, at least give it a different name), but while Thedas has actual originality elsewhere Ashan is almost completely dependent on rip-offs because its original ideas are horrible and cliche.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 11, 2016 11:55 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 23:57, 11 Feb 2016.
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By saying that a game copies real life I mean that game concepts are easily recognizable (e.g. Orlesian = French), and naturally induce associations with real life concepts. This rips off all the magic right away.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted February 12, 2016 12:52 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 00:53, 12 Feb 2016.
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Well, yes, they are guilty of that, but to a certain degree so is all fantasy. Everything has some inspiration from somewhere it is when you do not even try to make the concept you are inspired by original that it becomes a rip-off. I suppose it is a matter of taste but I think Thedas's use of real world inspiration is fine, Ashan's is pathetically blatant(and like everything it does without an attempt at originality)but not its worst crime. Also Orlais to me is more of a mixture of French and Italian(Venetian to be specific).
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted February 12, 2016 09:53 AM |
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Ashan and realism. For me it is the opposite. What made me stop playing Legacy X is the complete nonsense of world of Ashan. Everything is tied to elements, even a rat or a penguin. Goblins are stronger than minotaurs etc, like a comic fairy tale. It is the farthest thing from fantasy realism I’ve ever seen. It is very rare when world settings would put me off from finishing a game, but it happened so with Legacy X, otherwise (mechanics-wise) the game is quite OK. That is why I do not play campains in Homm games.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 12, 2016 10:10 AM |
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If we want to get real about what is the problem with Ashan we come down to some basic points:
1. The story is generaly tied, revoles around or includes Humans. Humans are not that interesting, we know them, we've seen them, we don't care about them anymore.
2. The stories are uninspired. There is no true mystery, no great twist and in general, there is no true interaction between races. It really doesn't help that each story is in a time frame that we know the outcome of. Also some stories for the sake of having more campaign maps, take too long with unesscessary prolongation.
3. There is not true depiction of races. You don't get to feel, trully feel, the elves or the orcs, or the wizards. You do not connect. This is a problem of narrative, of story choice and of immersion both of the game and of the story. Each Faction and each race has a background but that background is just words tossed in the dialogue every once in a while wihtout really having any impact. You also don't feel that the races are really all that different between them.
4. In the story, of Ashan, Factions try to be fixed in specific ideals, beliefs etc, but we don;t see it. This is the byproduct of a franchise going from abstract stories/bios/explanation to a very strict ethic for each of its Factions that in the end cannot or does not successfully show in the game or maps.
5. The realism is good and very helpful if you have to do with character developement but in Heroes VI and VII there is no true character developement. And i mean that the various events happening in the map does not help portray that change in character, ideas or beliefs. And this is hard to do in a strategy game unless you have very good and also quite tight narrative to the story, which may make the game feel very pushy.
6. Finally, the game needs original stories away from the main story, that can have freedom of expression, complex characters that we will delve into their backstories and learn to love them. Grey characters. It has been long enough to see a character we play turn out evil in the end but still hang in the grey lines. Realism comes from trying to avoid Black and White and keep in the shades of grey. Realism comes from giving a vague explanation why a dryad fights or why a pixie allies with the elves. What is a druid? Why assassins have all those decorations? These are silly questions, but to understand a fixed faction you need to feel them, achieve them and that can only happen through good stories.
Finally, i think that heroes has lost the feel of reading a good bookand waiting to see what happens next and this is bad handling from the story perspective in Ashan because we keep going back in time instead of moving forward to unknown shore.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted February 12, 2016 10:38 AM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 10:39, 12 Feb 2016.
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I don't think the stories of H7 bad. Actually, this game has in my opinion a great stories which usually involve some moral dilemma and they are not as black and white as many of previous ones, including the ones which take place in the old worlds. What's more, one of the best things Ubi brought to HoMaM universe are the gamesm more focused on stories. If you prefer multiplayer, I guess you do not like this change and the basement of hardcore community is, at least as I know, full of these players, but this (along modern 3D) in my opinion brought many new players. And this is also one of the things I love Heroes for.
About Ashan: It is probably not the best solved space for this game but look at the original universes, or rather, try to play the old campaigns again and you should see they are often very flat and boring.
What I agree with is definitely not moving forward problem. For example it is strange to see and support duke Ivan which tries to take control of Empire throne when we know it will be successful. Of course you usually predict your hero will be successful but if you are sure he will, it is different. You also know the factions won't change much (or you know how they change) so the surprise is over. But this is not the problem of Ashan and don't think it would be better with any other world while Ubi is making this game.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted February 12, 2016 11:33 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 11:34, 12 Feb 2016.
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Articun said:
4. In the story, of Ashan, Factions try to be fixed in specific ideals, beliefs etc, but we don;t see it. This is the byproduct of a franchise going from abstract stories/bios/explanation to a very strict ethic for each of its Factions that in the end cannot or does not successfully show in the game or maps.
I do not know how you came to this conclusion. The faction ideals and beliefs are so obvious and shoved in your face it makes me want to vomit.
Articun said:
5. The realism is good and very helpful if you have to do with character developement but in Heroes VI and VII there is no true character developement. And i mean that the various events happening in the map does not help portray that change in character, ideas or beliefs. And this is hard to do in a strategy game unless you have very good and also quite tight narrative to the story, which may make the game feel very pushy.
I am unsure what you mean by this point; however, as bitula said there is no realism in Ashan at all. Me and Alex were discussing real world inspiration(the duchies being rip-offs of European nations for instance).
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 12, 2016 11:50 AM |
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In realism i meant how a character is developed. How true his/her reactions are or how he matures and becomes different and guide you along that change without feeling fast, forced or alien.
The Humans are usualy in that form, either duchies, houses etc or just an emperor, it is classical fantasy setting for many games.
Finally, just saying Asha uses all, or something else, does not show that a faction has identity. For example, when have we seen necromancers really work for having the balance of souls intact? Or have we seen them manipulate fate in some kind?
Have we seen the power hungry wizards try to gain knowledge and power? Or have we followed the findings of any wizard to understand the spirit realm? Where is the protection of the forest from the elves? For me, listening to the heroes in campaigns just say those things but not actualy seeing them makes them feel plain, without depth etc
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 12, 2016 12:11 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:37, 12 Feb 2016.
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Character development? Depth? Realism? Since when in the world did we start giving a damn about those things? Before Ubisoft took over, Heroes was a STRATEGY game, not a freaking RPG.
In all honesty, who cares about Ashan? Who cares about meaningful stories with revelations and twists? I surely don't, doubly so when they're absolutely terrible. When I played Heroes 3 or 4 all I wanted was to build my town, skill my hero and raise an army to fight powerful foes and conquer the world. Everything else was besides the point. So why not send THIS message across instead of debating over Ashan?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 12, 2016 12:23 PM |
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Because this is also part of the final product. Moving aside the number one priority of the game design, the game also offers story. Some of us do like playing the campaigns as well as the skirmish maps. So for us it also provides something important. Why shouldnt heroes also provide good stories. Forget ashan. Ashan has many many flaws. You can find them everywhere. But also, heroes provided strong stories. Heroes 4 was one of the best in that regard. And campaigns are supposed to show how powerful the stories can be as an extension of the game (lineups and concistency).
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted February 12, 2016 12:31 PM |
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Articun said:
Because this is also part of the final product. Moving aside the number one priority of the game design, the game also offers story. Some of us do like playing the campaigns as well as the skirmish maps. So for us it also provides something important. Why shouldnt heroes also provide good stories. Forget ashan. Ashan has many many flaws. You can find them everywhere. But also, heroes provided strong stories. Heroes 4 was one of the best in that regard. And campaigns are supposed to show how powerful the stories can be as an extension of the game (lineups and concistency).
I'd agree to that. But there also has to be some sort of balance, for what would you do when you play out the campaign? At least Heroes IV had a decent amount of scenarios. V only with TotE. VI... not so much.
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 12, 2016 12:41 PM |
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Guys, we are talking about problems, not saying something is more important than something else. For me, skirmish maps and rmg is more important that scenario maps. Those are preferences though and in the end, any such game should provide a good variety of those maps. Scenarios as well as campaigns can show the power of storytelling but it is the campaigns that makes you get familiar with the world, the heroes, the current incarnation of the factions. And for me, that i like lore that is important too. I want to play the campaign and feel part of it.i will play it once, true, but i wanna be able to enjoy the story and game.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 12, 2016 12:46 PM |
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Stevie said:
Character development? Depth? Realism? Since when in the world did we start giving a damn about those things? Before Ubisoft took over, Heroes was a STRATEGY game, not a freaking RPG.
In all honesty, who cares about Ashan? Who cares about meaningful stories with revelations and twists? I surely don't, doubly so when they're absolutely terrible. When I played Heroes 3 or 4 all I wanted was to build my town, skill my hero and raise an army to fight powerful foes and conquer the world. Everything else was besides the point. So why not send THIS message across instead of debating over Ashan?
Part of the reason I loved the old heroes was that the characters were well fleshed out. There was a good blend of challenging gameplay and storyline which made campaigns memorable. Ubi campaigns tend to not have memorable story/characters but worse yet they are pathetically easy. Even if the story was mindblowing it cannot save a pushover campaign..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 12, 2016 01:42 PM |
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Campaigns? Lore? Factions? Content? Mechanics? Strategy?
Dudes, the game's crashing when you start it 
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 12, 2016 01:54 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Campaigns? Lore? Factions? Content? Mechanics? Strategy?
Dudes, the game's crashing when you start it
Oh come on!!! We are doing general discussion here 
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted February 12, 2016 02:13 PM |
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So, any news? Or News need patching too?
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
