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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 06:00 PM |
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Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
Yeah, but ANYONE prefers a great-looking game as well.
Ofc, so?
Great-looking and fast and stable are not easily compatible.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 06:41 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:44, 29 Aug 2016.
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I think that depends on the definition of what you perceive as "great looking". It's not like great looking necessarily equals 50.000 polygons which in turn equals a pain to render. I'm confident beautiful visuals can be achieved while also maintaining efficient processing.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 29, 2016 07:05 PM |
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Stevie said:
I'm confident beautiful visuals can be achieved while also maintaining efficient processing.
Ofc it can, people shouldn't pay to much attention to what Ubi-dudes are saying (*stares at JJ*), I mean, ESPECIALLY when it comes down to marketing, we could blatantly see the fiasco with h7, ahem.
On an unrelated note, I will always be amazed by the "make it crap to sell" logic, I mean, isn't it common sense to think "make it good to sell"? lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 08:04 PM |
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You are turning in circles here - WE are the hardcore gamers, not the casual gamers. The art is to appeal to both, not to one at the expense of the other.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 08:13 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You are turning in circles here - WE are the hardcore gamers, not the casual gamers. The art is to appeal to both, not to one at the expense of the other.
Sure enough. If you can make a game that looks pretty good and plays smoothly, I think only a minoritarian niche will complain that it doesn't look like the old days' fashion style. The problem comes when you make a game that looks good at the price of making it extremely hard to play for most machines currently around. In that case, you'd better go with old style visuals and satisfy the nostalgic and affectionate player rather than disappointing just everyone.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 08:30 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 29, 2016 08:34 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You are turning in circles here - WE are the hardcore gamers, not the casual gamers. The art is to appeal to both, not to one at the expense of the other.
Success is to keep the 30 years old(!!) fanbase while appealing to others, not prostitute the brand.
What more do you need, AoW3 you cherish so much is the perfect example of successful sequel, and I highly doubt the reasoning behind that game was "but we need to do this for $$$ because $$$", they just did their thing and they did it right because their mind wasn't polluted by mercantilism, but at service of the game before anything else.
And as you know very well, it has been a success.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 09:06 PM |
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That's what I say. AoW3 IS 3d, right?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 29, 2016 09:54 PM |
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Yes and they did it right but it doesn't mean 2d can't sell, that's in my opinion completely fallacious, especially for a game like Heroes. There is very well received modern 2d games (see Samorost or any game from Amanita Design in example) and honestly, it is nothing but shooting oneself in the foot than trying to conquer a few newcomers when dismissing about 4 gens of gamers. I mean, lol? The existing playerbase of Heroes is bigger than what Ubi thinks, satisfying that part should already be more profitable (need I recall how much H3HD sold more than h7?), then of course there will be newcomers anyway, there is always newcomers, for any game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 10:37 PM |
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At this point I have no idea what you are ranting about.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 30, 2016 11:14 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:01, 30 Aug 2016.
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Well the trigger here is this mindset of "hardcore gamers" and "sell" you showed which is in my opinion complete and typical Ubi-bullcrap.
Sorry I don't feel the need (nor the will) to develop but feel free to ask if you don't get something.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 30, 2016 11:40 AM |
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Heh, no, I don't see any hardcore gamer here and no offense intended, as this is not a quality nor a vice. Is a degree of physical and temporal implication. Hardcore are those who completed thousands of maps of all sizes, those who played online hundreds of games, therefore those who know perfectly the technical limitations and flaws because they experienced them again and again.
A guy who finished and scored on 50 giant maps does not have same angle of view about AI turns length than the guy who played a few medium maps, which is enough for analyzing and get an idea about the game mechanics. This is a primordial thing most of people here naturally ignore.
Anyway, I don't think gamers should be split in hardcore or not. Good looking game is a very vague concept, the game must be good and have easy playability. For instance, Skyrim is looking tons better than Oblivion, but I go back to play Oblivion much more often because the loading times when visiting interiors (caves and houses) in Skyrim is multiplied by 10, while is not offering better content. Or this loading time is becoming annoying when you go beyond hundreds of hours in, not when you just test the game to see what's about. When you do only one city, is not noticeable. When you do that city for the 50th time for quests purpose, then you feel it is enough to make you put the game down.
In my opinion, the first condition of gaming is to be able to play 100% of the time you spend on the game. Only if this condition is fulfilled the game qualities should come in discussion. If no one fights for this right to PLAY, and not WAIT to play, we will see future games requiring higher and higher configurations, require longer delays then gaming will become more of wasting time than having fun.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 30, 2016 11:50 AM |
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Exactly, but for some the definition of "hardcore" means posting on forums lmao
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2016 12:00 PM |
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Hey Sal, to my knowledge you have some pretty euros sitting in your bank account, what's stopping you from getting a monster PC that loads games like Civ 5 in mere seconds? Because you're missing out bud, just friendly advice. I mean, judging from what you're describing I get the impression you're stuck on a very limited niche of games because of load times. If that's your problem, then why not invest some savings to eliminate the problem once and for all?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 30, 2016 12:16 PM |
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Quote:
very limited niche of games
Which Heroes is supposed to be part of.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 30, 2016 12:20 PM |
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My config is ok, way above the requirements.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2016 12:48 PM |
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Are you people willfully stubborn or something?
Didn't you notice that games nowadays (or for some time) come with a playing time tag? For example, the German magazine who gave H7 an 88, ridiculously, tagged it with "80+ hours game time".
Now, for us hardcore gamers this tag is ridiculous, because, as Sal put it, we play the hell out of a great game, and in fact great MEANS that you can play the hell out of it. H3 had an infinite game time - but that's subjective, right? It's what differentiates the hardcore from the casual gamer. The casual gamer plays the campaign(s), because that's the main thing - that's also what mainstream reviewers have a look at. And necessarily so, because reviewers have to review games and not spent days and weeks with exploring everything that's possible with a game.
Hardcore gamer means, and I am one, I bought AoW 3 and all addons for full price and played (and still play) the hell out of it. BUT WHAT ELSE DO I PLAY (and most importantly what else do I BUY and for what money)?
Yesterday I bought Space Empires IV deluxe and V in a bundle for 3 bucks. I also bought Endless Legend when it was sold for 75% off, and I bought Sorcerer King, also from bargain bin. Else? Oh, I have a lot of great games I like to play, but I already HAVE THEM.
My wife is a hardcore gamer as well. Hay played the hell out of Civ 4 and still does - didn't like 5 when she saw it; I gifted it to her when it was in the bargain bin, she played it and HATES it with a vengeance (YOU CAN'T MOVE UNITS OVER EACH OTHER!!! ARE THEY KIDDING ME?!!)
So that's hardcore for you.
However - hardcore gamers have their favorite games, they don't necessarily NEED new games, and if they are tempted - they can wait for the bargain bin. Only very few games are bought full price. And that's the kind of player/consumer the business doesn't work with. You need the casual gamer - I mean, Civ 5 sold 8 million copies, do you think a significant part of it will still play the hell out of half a year after the last addon came out?
Nu-MOO is out of early access, and while I adore the original - I won't buy this one because it has a lot I wouldn't want it to have. And while Explorminate isn't enthusiastic in its review there is also this comment of one of the reviewers:
Quote:
Ah, Master of Orion, how I loved thee back in the day! How I love and admire thee still. But, your old self is kinda ugly now, even if your gameplay still (mostly) holds up. Seriously, your gameplay has fueled a genre for 23 years. But is your reboot enough to entertain modern 4X gamers?
Mostly, yes. There’s quite a lot to like about your new shiny self. And all your old races look so new – the 3D models suit you! I remember all these faces, and the Psilon are sexier than ever. I also like how you’re now displaying systems on the map, instead of plopping them in another window. Must be all the new RAM! And you sound great, too! No more beeps and boops – the orchestra you hired is very talented. Bravo!
And I'm sure, it will sell a lot because of this, because it looks sexy AND PLAYS SIMPLE, so lots of CASUAL gamers will have fun with a 30 bucks priced game - for 60+ hours or something like that.
I hope I made myself clear here!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2016 02:05 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 30, 2016 02:31 PM |
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JJ you always make yourself clear but you are completely hermetic to what I am trying to tell you.
I really can't afford the time to write too much nowadays but the very core of the problem like I've tried to explain on these boards so many times is the corporate approach Ubi has on the product, you don't need to change a game this much in order to appeal, in fact I would say is severely advised against, Heroes being a relevant example.
You want some casual perspective on the brand? During SC times I showed h7 screens to my older brother and guess what he said?
Conversation went like this:
- What is this?
- It's the newer Heroes game, I said.
- No way, doesn't look anything like Heroes.
This is just, I don't know man, not irrelevant, you can say it's an isolated example but I say it should not happen 100%, when a fan who stopped after h3 doesn't even recognize the game when showed screens.
What Ubi has done is literally chasing away their fan base, I think only a few of them are customers today, others mostly newcomers who will get the wrong idea on what this series is about, and is saddening me.
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olorin
Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
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posted August 30, 2016 02:49 PM |
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Edited by olorin at 14:49, 30 Aug 2016.
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
When I buy a game -if it hooks me from what I see, I mistreat it until it smokes or it dies in pain. Extreme rush, seek for higher scores, optimal walkthrough solutions, modding area, and so on. I am not the kind of playing 10 minutes then talk 5 hours about, when I play, I play. If I see the game opposes resistance to instant animations, reloads, has a hard time processing huge maps, crashes then has technical lethal flaws (take Civilization 5, for example you can't end turn until all order were given, or sometimes there is no order left as all promotions or policies were used, result = game is screwed, OVER, after hundreds of hours in), then I simply skip it, it has no interest, I know we won't be friends. The fact that it looks nice means nothing to me, when we talk about TBS genre.
So far, I observed that the "upgrade" to 3D also added a lot of annoyances and considerably slowed the gameplay, AOW included.
100 % agreed. This is why I'm stuck on H2-H3, AoW 1, AoW SM and MoM. In my opinion, AoW 3 is a very good game, but let's face it: it's merely a slow-paced version of the previous instalments. Does it look better?... Well I'm not sure. I find 3D graphics confuse and less effective when we talk about turn-based games.
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Top Hat Child dixit: http://tophatchild.blogspot.com.es/
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
