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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 30, 2016 11:56 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Clash of Heroes, admittedly a fantastic game, was designed for Nintendo DS.
It has also been ported successfully to other mobile device systems, exactly for the same reason. Let's please not compare apples to oranges.
But we have technologies for 3D? Why not make it 3D? Those were your words. And I think that comparison is in place: you have good 2D game in modern 3D times. Now you add platform: that was not the point.
SoilBurn said:
If a game is designed for PCs, on the other hand, then the developer of course wants to keep up with the current stand of technology. And the fanciest graphics for 4x strategy games are all based on 3D (as proven by the vast majority of frontline titles that were released in the last few years).
This is debatable. Some developers (and publishers I guess) want to create a good game. They have a vision, and base development on that (AoW3 for example). The rest wants only money  So decisions are usually made to do what is cheaper, and 3D is cheaper today. If 2D was cheaper, I bet that we would have more 2D frontline titles.
SoilBurn said:
And, to be frank with you, I do not see any advantages that 2D has over 3D if both are executed equally well. It's one less dimension to play with anyway 
I agree that if executed well, it does not matter That was my point. But, what has 3D brought to Heroes? Honestly? Nothing at all, except weird camera angles, objects hidden by other objects, zooming problems... Everything that you can do in H7 and H6 and H5 has nothing to do with 3D, everything could be executed with 2D, without the problems that I mentioned
SoilBurn said:
All games that do not keep up with modern graphics (e.g. modern side platformers, indie games based on old engines etc.) might have an aesthetic appeal and become successful, but they mostly target a niche market. The same applies to old movies like you mentioned. Of course they are classics. But if they would hve been made in the same way today, very few people would notice them, except if they are outrageously exceptional (Sin City being one of the few films that comes to mind, and it did use modern FX mixed in its retro comic-y BW theme).
That is debatable. Mad Max (the latest one) hade very little CGI (compared to modern movies) and delivered perfectly.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 31, 2016 12:06 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:07, 31 Aug 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
And, to be frank with you, I do not see any advantages that 2D has over 3D if both are executed equally well. It's one less dimension to play with anyway
Both have pros and cons, 2d being for readability and loading times, 3d for, being cool? Oh yeah, and cheaper, though I read on some forums this is debatable. The 3rd dimension in Heroes adds nothing strategically. Immersion can be done with either, when done well yes.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2016 12:16 AM |
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Salamandre said:
But why not, please record one of your "epic games" between turns/post Industrialization/10 civs to prove me I am a fool or just give up because you seem to not realize where the problem lies and you fanatically defend the indefensible.
Fret not, I'm not taking you that seriously, ever.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Petiknight
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 31, 2016 08:16 AM |
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If Ubi is going to make a new part, i think it would be nice to make it with similar engine as Blizzard's Heroes of Storm has. It's very well optimized. The adventure map could be like AOW3, but the combat map, should be nice #D with hex's, and with dynamic battles. Loading times should be extrem fast. I don't agree with the opinions, that graphic is not important, every details is very important. And i agree mostly with JJ's ideas, how they should develop a new game, but first of all Ubi should pick a realible and good experienced developer, and should give a bigger budget, and they have to release a perfect game to gain back the trust of disappointed fan's and customers, even if they will loose a money on this product. It would be a strong base of further games. I strongly belive, that the general opinion about the TBS genre's death are nonsense. People are desperately crying for good strategy games. Well if UBi is not capable to deliver a good game, then they should sell the francise.
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted August 31, 2016 09:29 AM |
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Salamandre said:
But why not, please record one of your "epic games" between turns/post Industrialization/10 civs to prove me I am a fool or just give up because you seem to not realize where the problem lies and you fanatically defend the indefensible.
Is Salamandre calling another person fanatical ??? Must investigate! *grabs popcorn*
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 31, 2016 10:04 AM |
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted August 31, 2016 10:06 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 10:15, 31 Aug 2016.
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i dont like how AoW3 looks, esspecially adventuremap-wise. i really think its ugly in every way. it looks too much like civ5, but a much worse version. btw i played civ5 for like.. eternity. i dont want same camera+hexagons in another game other then civ6... civ7.. whatever. its a civ camera and i would like to see it stay that way.
h7 looks a bit too artificial sometimes, yes, i agree that, but i believe its not because unreal engine is bad or 3d is bad or propotions are bad.. none of them are bad. its because lack of realistic details. yes, not realistic enough. you may argue with this and say "its detailed and realistic if you look at creature models!".. but here me, im also talking about game art direction. game has mix of artistic choices and this is creating confusion, therefore unrealistic, artificial feeling we experience. it should have been realistic in all artistic stages instead of here and there. for example, town screens and adventure map doesnt even look a bit like each other. haven town has a grass terrain which isnt even exist in adventure map. colors dont match, detail level dont match... back to the lack of details i will give some examples to explain myself:
1-we have trees look too much alike to each other.
2-you never get to see a reliastic wind blow.
3-you dont see much colors in vegetation.. flowers and stuff.. have no diversity at all.
4- there are not enough rock formations, cliffs, sharpness and stuff like that. vertical movement is simply not enough to fix absence of those. yes, it sometimes look great on some maps, but thats just it. when you use random generated terrains or lazy painted maps, it simply looks bad. you have to have an artistic touch to make it look good everytime.
5-camera isnt good.
i want a heroes game fully made in relistic, serious art style. i want correct perspective, architecture, and a consistent art. ubilimbic probably hired a lot of people which doesnt even know each other and some of them are even probably very cheap/low talented. this is the biggest mistake in my book. anyone looked for names in credits? there are dozens of artists, and nearly all of them are chinese.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 31, 2016 11:06 AM |
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Petiknight said:
I strongly belive, that the general opinion about the TBS genre's death are nonsense. People are desperately crying for good strategy games. Well if UBi is not capable to deliver a good game, then they should sell the francise.
+++
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted August 31, 2016 12:36 PM |
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Hey, you cant even imagine, how much more difficult to create a game in 3D then 2D. I can alone make a H3 level game in 2D in like 3 years. Anyone interested? I mean seriously, from a programmers (and other effort) point of view the difference in difficulty/time is tremendous.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted August 31, 2016 01:08 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
But we have technologies for 3D? Why not make it 3D? Those were your words. And I think that comparison is in place: you have good 2D game in modern 3D times. Now you add platform: that was not the point.
Of course the platform is relevant! I am playing Clash of Heroes on my Galaxy Note, and I am really thankful for that. If it was 3D instead, I would be stuck with Candy Crush forever! 
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted August 31, 2016 01:59 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
frostymuaddib said:
But we have technologies for 3D? Why not make it 3D? Those were your words. And I think that comparison is in place: you have good 2D game in modern 3D times. Now you add platform: that was not the point.
Of course the platform is relevant! I am playing Clash of Heroes on my Galaxy Note, and I am really thankful for that. If it was 3D instead, I would be stuck with Candy Crush forever!
Well your phone's 5 years old. That's even worse than a 5 year old pc as smartphones have progressed much faster in this timespan. The specs are very outdated and even low-range phones nowadays have better performance. Detailed 3d graphics are no problem for modern smartphones.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted August 31, 2016 02:13 PM |
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Zeki said:
Well your phone's 5 years old. That's even worse than a 5 year old pc as smartphones have progressed much faster in this timespan. The specs are very outdated and even low-range phones nowadays have better performance. Detailed 3d graphics are no problem for modern smartphones.
It's a Note 4, I was just referring to the format 
And, no thanks, I don't want a 3D strategy game on my phone, too cumbersome to play with the touch screen. All good strategy games I have played on the device so far have been 2D, and those are possible (mostly) due to the stylus.
Do you happen to own a smartphone from the future with an expandable screen? Seems so.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted August 31, 2016 02:21 PM |
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Edited by Zeki at 14:23, 31 Aug 2016.
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Well, then i misunderstood you. Although now that i think about it your point as i understood it still stands as coh was Originally developed for nds which has bad hardware so that might be the reason for the game being 2d.
Edit
I don't really get what 2d and 3d has to do with screen size and touch input? Is this only because of the stylus the note Series has?
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted August 31, 2016 02:32 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 14:34, 31 Aug 2016.
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Zeki said:
I don't really get what 2d and 3d has to do with screen size and touch input? Is this only because of the stylus the note Series has?
The units are too small to reliably control with your finger (even in Clash of Heroes with its simple, linear 2D graphics). And 3D would make that even more complicated (I guess. I don't know of any notable 3D strategy game for Note size screens that I can try out).
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted August 31, 2016 02:40 PM |
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Heh i don't know of any either. But wouldn't that be better with 3d, as you could zoom in then?
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2016 08:30 PM |
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Zeki said:
Heh i don't know of any either. But wouldn't that be better with 3d, as you could zoom in then?
The more you zoom out, the more models morph into garbage hip of ugly pixels.
The more you zoom in, the more models morph into soap textures and ugly geometric triangles.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 31, 2016 09:42 PM |
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Bitula said:
Hey, you cant even imagine, how much more difficult to create a game in 3D then 2D. I can alone make a H3 level game in 2D in like 3 years. Anyone interested? I mean seriously, from a programmers (and other effort) point of view the difference in difficulty/time is tremendous.
Of course programming a 3d engine is a lot harder than just a 2d one, but since heroes V, Ubi didnīt bother to actually make a new engine, but rather using an existing one. In the heroes series we got so far only 3 if Iīm not mistaken : Heroes 1-3 (though the engine received some changes after every iteration), Heroes 4 and Nivalīs Heroes 5. Then for h6 they used black holeīs engine which wasnīt made exclusively for heroes and in heroes 7 they used unreal. A well documented engine, be it a 3d or 2d is of course a lot easier than making your own. But since we have seen the recent works of ubi heroes, I canīt even dare to imagine how it would go if theyīd also build a new engine themselves...
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted September 01, 2016 10:33 AM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Bitula said:
Hey, you cant even imagine, how much more difficult to create a game in 3D then 2D. I can alone make a H3 level game in 2D in like 3 years. Anyone interested? I mean seriously, from a programmers (and other effort) point of view the difference in difficulty/time is tremendous.
Of course programming a 3d engine is a lot harder than just a 2d one, but since heroes V, Ubi didnīt bother to actually make a new engine, but rather using an existing one. In the heroes series we got so far only 3 if Iīm not mistaken : Heroes 1-3 (though the engine received some changes after every iteration), Heroes 4 and Nivalīs Heroes 5. Then for h6 they used black holeīs engine which wasnīt made exclusively for heroes and in heroes 7 they used unreal. A well documented engine, be it a 3d or 2d is of course a lot easier than making your own. But since we have seen the recent works of ubi heroes, I canīt even dare to imagine how it would go if theyīd also build a new engine themselves...
Yes but even using an existing 3D engine is far more difficult than moving 2D images. I can imagine that creation of a single 3D model takes as much time as a smaller full 2D game. Of course 2D isometric is again more complex than just symbolic 2D (like civ 1), but creating a non-isomeric 2D Heroes 8 would be quite easy IMO.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 01, 2016 11:19 AM |
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Hard to make sense out of your post honestly but I think I see what you mean, uh, I guess no one would want h8 (if ever made) to look like civ1.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted September 01, 2016 02:35 PM |
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Galaad said:
Hard to make sense out of your post honestly but I think I see what you mean, uh, I guess no one would want h8 (if ever made) to look like civ1.
It shouldn't be like Civ1, could have higher resolution and more detailed images. Perfect from a purely aesthetic point of view.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
