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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 01, 2016 10:54 PM |
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SoilBurn said: My favorite one out of all HOMM games hands down.
h3 castle or h5 academy or sylvan by far. imo
SoilBurn said: Actually I think they did an amazing job with the town screens in H7. At least they got something right.
wtf
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 01, 2016 10:55 PM |
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SoilBurn said: Actually I think they did an amazing job with the town screens in H7.
LOL!
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted September 01, 2016 11:03 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:06, 01 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said: Actually I think they did an amazing job with the town screens in H7.
Well, I guess someone had to.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 01, 2016 11:14 PM |
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yogi said:
h3 castle or h5 academy or sylvan by far. imo
H3 town screens? Hm, too pixely for 2016.
H5 Sylvan and H5 Academy, on the other hand, amazing. You picked my favorite ones as well.
I still prefer the stills from H7 however (miles ahead of the equivalent H6 ones).
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 01, 2016 11:23 PM |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 01, 2016 11:34 PM |
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imo, this should be shown, closer in style
Someone said simplistic and "pixely" graphics? It pwns the H7 is all I see.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 01, 2016 11:55 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 00:03, 02 Sep 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Someone said simplistic and "pixely" graphics? It pwns the H7 is all I see.
If you are into this 90's video games style, fine by me. I am not
EDIT:
@Salamandre: Paintings and video games? Not very comparable.
And if you are looking for anything resembling a "painting", then you should actually like the H7 towns. They make a cohesive whole, they are not pieces jumbled together (like in H3).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 01, 2016 11:59 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 02, 2016 12:08 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:10, 02 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said: Exactly the things that bother you (variation, "unnecessary" environment details) are for me the most important asset for the game and absolutely necessary for immersion/story/depth purposes. A game with simplistic graphics would be a definite no-go for me.
May I remind you by the time original games went out the graphics were extremely immersive (and still are), you think the Heroes name would be so big if they weren't? Come on, please be serious. JVC always wanted to attract the most people possible, he just knew how to do it.
Define "simplistic", it does not mean your trees have to be cones and castles squares for the sake of readability, it means that, while being well-designed with artistic concern, you still see what is going on, so you can plan your strategy without having to fight with the scene, it is incomparably more convenient.
It is completely without doubt that HoMM needs good visuals (and if you are satisfied with the visuals of h7, you would just go nuts if it looked like how I think it should, and I am not speaking of art direction here, but of plain visual quality), Heroes 2 has after all left a solid mark with its fairy-tale charm, and Heroes 3 still looks objectively good for a game that old (bear in mind the original resolution!!), same goes for Heroes 4 which had problems elsewhere.
Immersion is of course extremely important (and unlike you I find the Ubi titles to terribly lack in this department), and I always fought for it, but you can't afford to loose a consequent part of visibility that hinders in terms of strategy because you like to play with the camera. For example, in pre-Ubi games, I can just look and plan my moves for several days just by staring at the screen, which is much more of a hassle with the modern titles, as using 3d with a perspective projection is, as I was saying earlier, counter-productive, majority of people I read are in favor of isometric for this type of games because zooming in and out is a bother, I go left and that battle site (if there is one lol) or town became a pixel! But oh, maybe you don't like to plan much and go day by day? Well then sorry probably strategy games aren't for you then, you like full 3D with great story you'd be better off playing RPGs, no offense. But for people who enjoy strategy and turn-based tactics, we want a clear view, and I believe rightfully so.
It somehow looks to me like you're confusing old games with 2d, because modern 2d has a perfection of detail owning most 3d games, as everything is pre-rendered you can afford much more, and asking for much less resources on the computer side too, is completely win-win, going against that is, again counter-productive, can't find a better term. I believe it is wrong to think "full 3D" is mandatory for immersion, and let me tell you you will convince, very, very few people in the TBS niche about that.
Oh, and don't even get me started on the combat grid, even in AoW3 you don't clearly see the units, so much work on creating detailed 3d models but once you zoom out the battlefield, is just pixels, in 2016! Sure, you can get used to it and not mind, but compare with 2d, the gap in visibilty -and thus, ironically, immersion- is phenomenal.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 02, 2016 12:10 AM |
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Problem isn't about that. When I see the Fortress townscreen (which is quite better than the other ones - especially Necropolis), the first thing I see is how everything blends in. There is but the color code of orange and black, sometimes even yellow.
Another problem is how the buildings blend in. There are very few that note how important they are, like the Town Hall, or that spiral vortex fire close to it.
Also, there ought to be some logic in placing of the buildings. It is supposed to be a town with actual people (or creatures), so where are the tiny houses or something akin to it? Though, for 20 years of the franchise, one would expect that the artists draw actual people in the townscreen. Just a thought.
And there are a lot of times when one building overlaps the other. It may not be a mistake that can be avoided, but it certainly can be cut down to a minimum.
One final thing is how all the buildings look small. Maybe it is just the picture itself, but there is just so much space unused that can be cut down, to let the buildings look larger on the picture.
So it isn't just a preference of graphics at some year, but how well the buildings are placed, which colors are used, their design and what kind of feeling they emit. And, well, that is supposed to be the artist's job.
Unfortunately as it is, already in the start of Heroes VII development it is said how townscreens are unimportant. That's the response to that problem.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 02, 2016 12:27 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 00:30, 02 Sep 2016.
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@Galaad: When I was 15, I got immersed by H3 just fine, yes. A few years later H4 came in and I was blown away (even better graphics, fantastic campaign story etc.). In 2016 I wouldn't stand to play even 5 minutes of any of those games (well H4 maybe, for nostalgia reasons). Tastes are tastes I guess, but for me 2D in strategy games is either a) museum stuff or b)to be used in a context that demands it (lightweight mobile games or "artsy", retro-style games).
@EnergyZ: This is highly subjective. I don't want realism on my town screens or little people running around or large buildings that occupy 90% of the screen. I want artistic town screens that I can put in a frame and hang up on the wall. And the only ones that go into that direction are the H7 ones. It's fine if you prefer something different.
(Note: Necropolis H7 is the only exception. Not because of the spider legs, but because of the randomly aligned rows of non-matching buildings)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 02, 2016 12:32 AM |
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SoilBurn said: If you are into this 90's video games style, fine by me. I am not
what does it have to do with the 90s, the Heroes 3 townscreens were full fledged 3D scenes turned into renders, while the Heroes 7 ones are 2D overlay paintings commissioned from random deviantart users with objectively poor eye for proportion and composition, I didn't think digital paintings are an especially new or revolutionary invention lol
are you saying you prefer one style over the other artistically speaking just because it's rendered in a higher resolution lol
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 02, 2016 12:50 AM |
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verriker said:
SoilBurn said: If you are into this 90's video games style, fine by me. I am not
what does it have to do with the 90s, the Heroes 3 townscreens were full fledged 3D scenes turned into renders, while the Heroes 7 ones are 2D overlay paintings commissioned from random deviantart users with objectively poor eye for proportion and composition, I didn't think digital paintings are an especially new or revolutionary invention lol
are you saying you prefer one style over the other artistically speaking just because it's rendered in a higher resolution lol
For god sake cut him some slack. Maybe he genuinely thinks HOMM7 looks better, period. Which in most cases (as in, in most townscreen comparisons) I find genuinely absurd, but it's a matter of taste.
Plus if you take the HOMM7 Fortress vs the HOMM3 Cove you're kind of taking a very convenient example here.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 02, 2016 01:02 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 01:02, 02 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
For god sake cut him some slack.
Thanks but no need to worry. I am used to the groupthink phenomenon here on HC. Propose something different than the "inner circle" here supports, and you are immediately a shooting target - even if it is just taste.
H3 is teh best and H7 is crap guys. Erwan is devil incarnate. And H3 town screens look totally modern. See? now I fit
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 02, 2016 01:03 AM |
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Galaad said: For example, in pre-Ubi games, I can just look and plan my moves for several days just by staring at the screen, which is much more of a hassle with the modern titles, as using 3d with a perspective projection is, as I was saying earlier, counter-productive
+1
for being able to sit back, meditate on a stunningly gorgeous map of wonders, and clearly stategize an adventure.
heaven?
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 02, 2016 01:03 AM |
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Edited by verriker at 01:17, 02 Sep 2016.
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Momo said: For god sake cut him some slack. Maybe he genuinely thinks HOMM7 looks better, period. Which in most cases (as in, in most townscreen comparisons) I find genuinely absurd, but it's a matter of taste.
Plus if you take the HOMM7 Fortress vs the HOMM3 Cove you're kind of taking a very convenient example here.
lol cool down mate, you are often on my case casting a negative eye on what I say and do yourself,
I am merely asking him questions about the logic of what he is saying, not casting any aspersions on his taste, there is no connotation of a witch hunt, if he tends to like stick figures better than Michaelangelo that's absolutely valid and fine with me, it does not stop me from being curious about the thought process that leads him there lol
SoilBurn said: Thanks but no need to worry. I am used to the groupthink phenomenon here on HC. Propose something different than the "inner circle" here supports, and you are immediately a shooting target - even if it is just taste.
H3 is teh best and H7 is crap guys. Erwan is devil incarnate. And H3 town screens look totally modern. See? now I fit
you are for a second time now, instead of indulging a simple invitation to elaborate your thoughts, seizing the first opportunity to think the worst of not only me, but all the users here, and then use poor strawman arguments,
if you had just answered what I said at face value, as intended, we could have a chill and friendly chat about our tastes, instead of taking it in bad faith, escalating into an nonintellectual bickering match and resorting to bad discussion practices lol
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 02, 2016 01:19 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 01:20, 02 Sep 2016.
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H7 said:
"They judge me like a picture book
by the colors
like they forgot to read"
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 02, 2016 01:20 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 01:28, 02 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said: for me 2D in strategy games is either a) museum stuff or b)to be used in a context that demands it (lightweight mobile games or "artsy", retro-style games).
Ok, Trine 2 is 3d but has a gameplay restricted to a 2d plane (you DON'T rotate the camera), what I want to show here is the pre-rendered 2d art (and 3d tools were used, just like for h3), now if you tell me you don't like it that's fine, but your statement might be invalid on several aspects.
Just imagine if adventure map, townscreens, battle screens, had this level of details, of textures, of lightning... I will get the "take my money" attitude. And on top of it, want to know the minimal requirements to run Trine 2?
Quote: Requirement
Operating System Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Windows 7, Mac, Linux
Processor AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 4000+ or better
or
Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 2.0GHz or better
RAM 1GB
Graphics ATi Radeon HD 2400 or better
or
NVIDIA GeForce 7600 or better
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 02, 2016 01:22 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 01:23, 02 Sep 2016.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 02, 2016 01:22 AM |
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verriker said:
lol cool down mate, you are often on my case casting a negative eye on what I say and do yourself,
I am merely asking him questions about the logic of what he is saying, not casting any aspersions on his taste, there is no connotation of a witch hunt, if he tends to like stick figures better than Michaelangelo that's absolutely valid and fine with me, it does not stop me from being curious about the thought process that leads him there lol
About the "personal" point no, not at all, I find you very entertaining and funny, honestly. I enjoy reading your posts and often get a good laugh out of them. The Erwin of Might and Magic thread was also quite informative, even if most of the anedoctes are already known to most of us.
That said I don't think it's a witch hunt against SoilBurn specifically, I just think that on these boards you guys often talk of the aesthethics of townscreens like something that obeys to some laws of universal validity, and I fail to see how that is. It is a highly subjective matter and is also full of nuances.
For instance: I think the HOMM6 townscreen for Dungeon was apparently more beautiful and lush than the HOMM3 one, but the HOMM3 one was full of spirit and uniqueness the HOMM6 one lacks. Whereas I think the townscreen for Sylvan in HOMM5 was just plainly better than the one for Rampart in HOMM3. I think the HOMM6 Inferno townscreen is a good step in the right direction and the HOMM3 for Inferno is indeed very uninteresting and their grail building is horrid. I liked the change of colors in HOMM5 for necromancers and even the egyptian theme in HOMM6 had its merits but I still think the spider-shaped city of HOMM7 is an abominion conceptually and visually and in the end the HOMM3 one still looks as the best Necro townscreens probably.
Each of these is a statement about an aestethical comparison and you'd probably have objections or corrections on each of those, and we could spend nights over nights discussing these and it still won't come to an objectively urrefutable conclusion.
It is therefore a bit puzzling to see all of this reduced to a mere, simplicistic and absolute statement like "HOMM3's townscreens were clearly better / patently worse and that's that" and then see that statement defended as an universally well recognized truth.
And Michelangelo vs stick figures yes, would make for a practically speaking universal truth, but you know this is not the same case here.
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