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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 03, 2016 11:54 AM |
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blob2 said:
So far it works, it shows that we truly are a hermetic bunch that can't appreciate a good game when we see one...
They can keep on deluding themselves and ignore all the dreadful reviews and critics about everywhere else. All I see is a small chunk who can't defend this without being troublemakers.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 03, 2016 12:37 PM |
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blob2 said:
So far it works, it shows that we truly are a hermetic bunch that can't appreciate a good game when we see one...
To be fair, there was not a good Heroes game for a long time, so there was nothing to see 
In the end, I realized that I won't even care about next Heroes games (if any), as long as Ubi does what it did with H6 and H7. Too much time wasted on following those games, and too much hope ruined by them. Thank God that we still have 5 good Heroes games, and plethora of mods for them 
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 03, 2016 01:22 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
I hope you are not being serious Maurice. I am following this thread since very long and I know very well how much bullying Antalyan received when he started posting here. Since then he has toned down his positive comments on the game considerably, especially on this forum. One of the reasons I started posting again is actually that I felt sorry for him.
I'm delighted you did ;-)
One of the things why I started posting more often was when I saw how bad received this game was. I didn't like to see only negative comments about the game I like and I wanted to show developers (and I still do) that there are still some people enjoying their game and who appreciate any communication with fans, any information and especially any improvements, even in spite of the bad release H7 undoubtebly had.
HC is definitely not the most friendly place for people, especially the newcomers, who would come to discuss H7 from the point of player as the majority of the most active members are unfortunately also the ones not liking H7. But I think the opposite situation would be for people not liking H7 coming to websites were H7 fans are.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 03, 2016 04:08 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Is that the quarantine thread for afflicted people like me?
Maybe then we should rename the rest of the forum into "Heroes 7 Hate forum"
I have spoken with Frosty when he created that thread and that is absolutely not the intention, it is a safe space made in good faith for everyone to express positive views on Heroes 7 without being challenged or disagreed with, because this was constantly demanded by certain users (who would call other users the "HC police" or a "circlejerk" for their opinions), but we did not think it made sense to neuter the discussion thread, so this accommodates everyone lol
like I said I think it is important for everyone not to set out to feel upset/persecuted, take things personally or see only what you want to see when you disagree with someone, e.g. dismiss others as trolls or not take the Positive Thread seriously and call it the quarantine thread, that will not improve the atmosphere IMO,
I too have been insulted, sniped at and personally attacked countless times by passionate users and rely on a thick skin to just move on and get over it, it doesn't mean I will say woe is me or start condemning the entire forum, it's a fallacy after all, everyone is responsible for their own behavior and when my opinion is not popular I will accept that and justify it with arguments lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 03, 2016 04:16 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
I hope you are not being serious Maurice. I am following this thread since very long and I know very well how much bullying Antalyan received when he started posting here. Since then he has toned down his positive comments on the game considerably, especially on this forum. One of the reasons I started posting again is actually that I felt sorry for him.
I actually am. I know he received a lot of flak and bullying and I recall there was at least one instance where things exploded and resorted to (near) name calling as I recall, but personally I feel things have improved since then. As far as I can see, Antalyan has acquired a position where most of the posters treat him respectfully, even if they don't agree with his positive view on the game.
But perhaps Antalyan sees this differently himself, I don't know. It's just my perception in any case.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 03, 2016 04:41 PM |
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The_Polyglot said:
Can't we just close this thread? It was entertaining for a while, but it devolved into the most toxic, vilest thread I encountered in my 5ish years here.
I thought it turned like that when Necropolis was announced about more than a year ago. And here we are and the discussion continues on.
But hey, at least you can see clearly that there is a certain amount of people that like Heroes VI and VII. I don't judge that, though.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 03, 2016 06:37 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 18:37, 03 Sep 2016.
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Antalyan said:
I'm delighted you did ;-)
Keep fighting the good fight my friend. I am also enjoying the game (altough I was negative before I tried it), and wish to keep supporting its development if it makes any difference. There are still a lot of annoying bugs, the balance is a mess and content-wise the game can also improve. If they do not do a 2nd expansion, at least they should iron out the technical shortcomings and balance the game.
Maurice said:
As far as I can see, Antalyan has acquired a position where most of the posters treat him respectfully, even if they don't agree with his positive view on the game.
Well, he didn't give up despite the flak, which is definitely admirable. But he actively avoids commenting positively about the game since then, which is why he is tolerated (I wouldn't use the word "respected" in this forum).
Galaad said:
They can keep on deluding themselves and ignore all the dreadful reviews and critics about everywhere else. All I see is a small chunk who can't defend this without being troublemakers.
Dem troublemakers liking the H7 town screens. How dare they!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 03, 2016 08:03 PM |
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Kinda weird how people that like h7 just come to defend h7, but donīt even bother to open threads discussing campaigns, strategies, balancing and mods. Does that mean that h7 doesnīt quite offer other subjects of discussion other than criticising it?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 03, 2016 08:18 PM |
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@verriker
Ok let's end the first part of the discussion because it'll takes us nowhere.
verriker said:
talk about the technical backstory of the H3 and H7 town screens, give some quotes, demonstrate that I don't think H3 are the be-all and end-all best townscreens possible, give some examples of town screens I'd like to see, have a worthwhile discussion, but that's wrecked and out the window with the two comments immediately shutting down a chat in good faith lol
Let's hear that, it could be an interesting subject for a change. I shall give you my 2 cents about it too.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 03, 2016 09:21 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Kinda weird how people that like h7 just come to defend h7, but donīt even bother to open threads discussing campaigns, strategies, balancing and mods. Does that mean that h7 doesnīt quite offer other subjects of discussion other than criticising it?
Yeah that also caught my eye. Well, not saying there wasn't some innitiatives (Antalayans 2.0 tips thread for instance), but generally speaking most of the pro-7 guys here appear rather reactive (on H7 flaming) then proactive...
Furthemore if some of you guys think the game deserves praise can you point me some positive discussions elswhere? Not on these forums but Steam forums for instance (but please, no sponsored threads). And no it's no sarcasm, I would really like to see if all this H7 hatin' is HC forums thing or is it actually the general reception of the game?
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted September 03, 2016 09:41 PM |
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For the sake of clarity I read back a few pages in this thread to see where the discussion shifted a bit from subject to person. The discussion was mainly about subject until this (page 1542):
SoilBurn said:
Momo said:
For god sake cut him some slack.
Thanks but no need to worry. I am used to the groupthink phenomenon here on HC. Propose something different than the "inner circle" here supports, and you are immediately a shooting target - even if it is just taste.
H3 is teh best and H7 is crap guys. Erwan is devil incarnate. And H3 town screens look totally modern. See? now I fit 
The thing is, the whole discussion before this was the complete opposite of groupthink. There was strong disagreement between almost everyone involved in the discussions regarding 2D vs 3D, definition of hardcore gamer, the difference in pacing between AOW and Heroes, and many other subjects. There was no uniform bashing of H7 going on, no mention of Erwan, no personal attacks. So where did this reaction come from? I really don't understand. I know people can be overly passionate sometimes, but I didn't see it this time. However, it does not condone people spamming or answering back in the same manner. A few posts have been deleted in that regard.
When it comes to the town screens there are literally 1000 posts about the H7 screen in the Limbic's Town Screens thread, overanalyzing everything from lighting, perspective, composition, colors, buildings and so on. Even fan made changes to the official screens (many of the suggestions were actually included in the final screens), and alternative fan made screens. So since some members spent at least one year studying every aspect imaginable of the H7 screens, making alternative editions, suggesting changes to improve them - I think it's safe to say this is something that they find interesting. I linked to a big thread about screens for H6 in my previous post (and if I remember correctly you were active in that thread as well), so this is not something exclusively for H7. If you read through these threads you will find plenty of arguments and disagreements. So generally when people ask about details others might find irrelevant, it's not to silence you or be overly nit picking, it's because they are actually interested and used to discuss these matters in detail. It is perfectly fine to say "I have not spent much time analyzing the reasons for liking X, it simply appeals to me", no need to make it out like one is unwelcome simply because some people disagree and want to discuss it further. There is a difference between disagreeing with your opinion and bashing you for your opinion.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 03, 2016 11:06 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 23:30, 03 Sep 2016.
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LizardWarrior said:
Kinda weird how people that like h7 just come to defend h7, but donīt even bother to open threads discussing campaigns, strategies, balancing and mods.
I would like to see more of that. I wrote a review and made some recommendations related to balancing, I generally do not have the time to start a full-fledged discussion on strategy (but would be interested to contribute to one, if it makes sense - so far people are mostly discussing campaigns because MP is still unbalanced).
Brukernavn said:
There is a difference between disagreeing with your opinion and bashing you for your opinion.
I don't know if posts were deleted, but there were a few people that reacted in an ironic/matter-of-fact manner when I said I like H7 town screens. And I literally had no idea that it would cause backlash, I honestly like them and think they are well-made (but apparently I am the only one around here, which I did not know).
I do not think both Momo and myself would have reacted so negatively if the discussion had stayed neutral. It is one thing to disagree with an opinion and another thing to make fun of it.
blob2 said:
Furthemore if some of you guys think the game deserves praise can you point me some positive discussions elswhere? Not on these forums but Steam forums for instance (but please, no sponsored threads). And no it's no sarcasm, I would really like to see if all this H7 hatin' is HC forums thing or is it actually the general reception of the game?
There is no other place with so much hate on the game as HC (both the Steam discussions and the Ubi forums are - in comparison - less extreme). Of course the overall impression is negative due to the obscene amount of bugs, but the positive comments are increasing (which is logical, the game is now much more playable than at release).
And before someone asks me: The reason I post on HC and not anywhere else is because I have been following HC for countless years and it feels natural to discuss Heroes things here and not somewhere else.
EDIT: Another notable difference between the game feedback on HC and elsewhere are the issues that are being criticized. While most of the other discussion platforms focus on bugs and technical shortcomings of the game, on HC I read a lot of (highly subjective) criticism re. to gameplay and/or art style issues (e.g. spiders, color-coding of factions, lineups, Ashan lore, flanking etc.). This is also the part I personally don't agree with; I think the whole concept of H7 is good - but the execution sloppy & unprofessional.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 03, 2016 11:40 PM |
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Momo said:
Let's hear that, it could be an interesting subject for a change. I shall give you my 2 cents about it too.
sure thing I will collect those thoughts and PM you tomorrow, or post them later, not enough time now and that strand of the discussion has waned lol
Soilburn please check your PM from me, I am trying to clumsy use my Basic Diplomacy skill lol
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 04, 2016 12:04 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
Dem troublemakers liking the H7 town screens. How dare they!
Not this, but my post showing you off got deleted, not that anyone cares anyway.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted September 04, 2016 12:10 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
Brukernavn said:
There is a difference between disagreeing with your opinion and bashing you for your opinion.
I don't know if posts were deleted, but there were a few people that reacted in an ironic/matter-of-fact manner when I said I like H7 town screens. And I literally had no idea that it would cause backlash, I honestly like them and think they are well-made (but apparently I am the only one around here, which I did not know).
I do not think both Momo and myself would have reacted so negatively if the discussion had stayed neutral. It is one thing to disagree with an opinion and another thing to make fun of it.
Thanks, that makes it more clear for me. I'll send you a PM so we don't spend more time on this on the thread.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 12:20 AM |
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blob2 said:
I would really like to see if all this H7 hatin' is HC forums thing or is it actually the general reception of the game?
I think the HC takes it a bit to the extreme. The game isn't THAT bad. But then again, even HOMM6 wasn't THAT bad as people make it to be. I think that it is simply the product of people who don't understand the license they are working on themselves, and therefore while it could be a decent game in a vacuum (as the reviewers tend to say) it usually is a very poor execution of what HOMM should be.
I am being very generous here because you should just overlook the usually sorry state of the software upon release, the clumsy re-edition of the gameplay, the obviously misplaced priorities of the devs (graphics > all, in a TBS? Probably the wrong call) and of course the much demanding system requirements. These are serious faults that everyone, every reviewer, values poorly. Let's assume you take the game fully patched, with a very powerful PC that can chew it effortlessly, without any HOMM game to make a comparison with. Let's assume you know nothing about the history of the games developement, of Erwan LeBreton and his team and how subborn, arrogant and even provoking the staff had been by continuosly stressed the aspects that the fanbase community told them it disliked (can you really believe that gremlins are now small dragons and necropolis are now big spiders of rock??), that you are somewhat clueless about all this and not caring to know either.
With that point of view, both HOMM7 and even HOMM6 are quite decent games, even good in some respects.
The problem is that while these games aren't all that bad, they still are worse than much other things you could be playing at the same time. So in the end those who always come back to HOMM are for the most those who have an affection for the series, which are those who these games are most insulting toward.
And even condoning all the objective faults above mentioned (and why should you condone them anyway, in the end?) you cannot just change this fact.
Long story short, I bet that elsewhere the discussion is more calm and civil, because Ubi is actively insulting its fans and therefore the fans community is the most overheated toward the game.
SoilBurn said:
I do not think both Momo and myself would have reacted so negatively if the discussion had stayed neutral.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I never meant to say the discussion was not "neutral" or that you were victim of some sort of cyber bullying. I was merely puzzled, and I still am, about how many people treated your appreciation of HOMM7 aesthethics as something that could be objectively described as misplaced and wrong just the same as it could be if, say, you portrayed HOMM7 as a smooth, flawless and efficient piece of software. While I could understand the frustration and collective interest vs such an opinion as the latter, I cannot understand it for the former. I disliked the HOMM7 Haven screens, I think the HOMM3 one is better, but saying as some poster did (can't remember who it was and I'm not gonna look it up now) "All I can see is that it (=the townscreen) owns HOMM7" like if it is some sort of self-evident truth, appears to me as feigned objectivity.
I wasn't reacting negatively, I of course am sorry that you are having a bad experience, just as I am sorry that verrikerapparently took offense, but I wans't reacting negatively, on the contrary I was trying to suggest to just drop it. If you could've heard my voice you could see that I was actually quite lighthearted.
That said, as I said to verriker already, if you wish to discuss the factions townscreens and general aesthetics and how you think townscreens should've been, then as I said there's a lot of sujectivity in it, but I'd gladly take the chance.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 04, 2016 12:45 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 00:54, 04 Sep 2016.
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@Momo: There is no misunderstanding, I agree with what you wrote in your post and see it in a similar way, I just formulated it differently.
Momo said:
With that point of view, both HOMM7 and even HOMM6 are quite decent games, even good in some respects.
That however I don't agree with, I wouldn't group these two games together
Although I love the H6 graphics and mood, the game itself had certain deal-breaking issues for me:
a) the constant crashes. If you think that H7 bugs are bad, then you have not played H6 enough. All large & XL maps would crash at some point (even in hotseat MP), even after Shades of Darkness (and re-loading did not solve the problem for me. Same applies to re-installing and patching the game).
b) the skill tree: Lazy and boring. All factions get the same skills, no variation, no random skilling, linear skills without "schools" (e.g. Basic/Advanced/Master Combat) and few prerequisites. This led to cookie-cutter builds and overall low replayability.
c) The DRM (the so-called Conflux). Seriously Ubi?
After some time the only pleasure I took from H6 was looking at the menu animations and my "online-only" hero/weapon etc. collection. This is not what a Heroes game is supposed to be for me. This is also the main reason why I avoided buying H7 till after Trial of Fire (and only did so reluctantly after peer pressure).
H7 on the other hand kept the good art style while correcting the above problems: no crashes (except in rare occasions), nice skill tree w. random skilling, no DRM or other nonsense, sim-tuns. Also, compared to H6, H7 offers much better campaigns and single-player experience overall (do you remember the lifeless, half-finished ending campaigns from H6?). Overall I rank H7 much, much higher than H6.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 02:19 AM |
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The_Polyglot said:
Can't we just close this thread? It was entertaining for a while, but it devolved into the most toxic, vilest thread I encountered in my 5ish years here.
I kinda agree with you there. The game is dead anyway so what's the point of argueing about it? Just look at the steamspy numbers... H5 ToTE and h3 HD both still have more active players than h7 TbF. It has been a month since they last had any news on the mmh7 site too(which was the release) making it look ever more likely that they will pull the plug after xmas sales.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 08:24 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
This is not what a Heroes game is supposed to be for me.
Yes, you see, this was my point. If you evaluate those games in a vacuum they can appear decent (once you solved all the technical problems at least). If you take it as an installment of something that should somehow be the evolution of HOMM3, they are an insult. At least they are to me.
I agree that it (HOMM7) improves on HOMM6 though.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 08:54 AM |
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Momo said:
I agree that it (HOMM7) improves on HOMM6 though.
You see, that's what I don't see. I mean, H6 "boldly went, where no Heroes game was", so-to-speak, and it didn't work out too well. H7 wanted to "go where all the best Heroes games were" - and obviously didn't even manage to identify the "best".
So you have one game they wanted to break new ground with - which they did, but the new ground was blighted in some places.
And you have another one, the wanted to get back to the highest ground there was - but they got lost underway and steered into some rabbit hole instead.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
