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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 09:52 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 09:54, 04 Sep 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
You see, that's what I don't see. I mean, H6 "boldly went, where no Heroes game was", so-to-speak, and it didn't work out too well. H7 wanted to "go where all the best Heroes games were" - and obviously didn't even manage to identify the "best".
So you have one game they wanted to break new ground with - which they did, but the new ground was blighted in some places.
And you have another one, the wanted to get back to the highest ground there was - but they got lost underway and steered into some rabbit hole instead.
HOMM6 tried to break new ground, HOMM4 did that too, I'd say HOMM4 did a lot better. HOMM6 was a game that missed the whole point of what HOMM is - and mind you, I am speaking in the capacity of someone who appreciated HOMM6 (I'll once again point out, not considering the technical disaster it was). Some of the decisions HOMM7 took tried at least to un-do the damage done by HOMM6, by giving us mage guilds again, no town conversion which was arguably the most unjustifiable and unintellegible form of oversimplification I ever saw, building tree again etc.
Now, they missed it on many respects. For instance what's the meaning of having more resources once again if no faction has a favored one or a useless one? You can't make strategical saboteur flagging, or trade useless resource for precious one, etc. Another example, stopping the endless list of convoluted abilities on creatures is a good move, but not if you make all creatures bland in the end. These are the issues that reveal that they cannot get the priorities of their own game.
Most of all, HOMM3 was considered such a welcome installment also because it worked in a logic of expansion, as did HOMM2 upon HOMM. Making a lore with 9 factions and stubbornly cutting one or two each installments means not getting how much diversity and replayability is crucial for HOMM.
Despite all that, though, the will to avert some of the bad routes HOMM6 took is there, and it should be mentioned.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 12:18 PM |
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I see that in a somewhat different light:
Momo said:
HOMM6 tried to break new ground, HOMM4 did that too, I'd say HOMM4 did a lot better.
Yup.
Quote:
HOMM6 was a game that missed the whole point of what HOMM is - and mind you, I am speaking in the capacity of someone who appreciated HOMM6 (I'll once again point out, not considering the technical disaster it was). Some of the decisions HOMM7 took tried at least to un-do the damage done by HOMM6, by giving us mage guilds again, no town conversion which was arguably the most unjustifiable and unintellegible form of oversimplification I ever saw, building tree again etc.
Town conversion would have been a very convenient MP play level-maker, and the only thing missing was the box in the options menu to check and uncheck the feature (which would have been easy enough). Then let's have a closer look at those Mage Guilds and H6. In H6, once they decided to do free picking and the new Bible of the Seven Magic Schools was established, Mage Guilds in H6 made simply no sense. The result, though, was simply boring, most of the time - H6 misses all, well, tension when you build a hero (and the ultimate boredom is, that each Hero class' Primary skill development is pre-destined to always the same build). So that was a bad decision. H7 decided, though, to KEEP the free skill pick. Oh, sure, they added random, when it became apparent that things didn't work out, and they changed the random method now for 2.0, since the first one was no good either.
They put Mage Guilds in, again, true. But just take a look at it. 7 schools with 8 spells each. Now some towns have a favored school and you can also pick a school as well. Now consider the underlying system of free picking within a 10-skil wheel. And you have the same thing, obviously. You PICK stuff.
Ah, but they came up with random skilling, that works, now, doesn't it? Well, I don't think so, because it's still boring, and it's not really random. The whole thing stands and falls with the way heroes obtain their "active abilities" and how they can be varied and strengthened, and you can pre-determine everything. Both H3 and H4 lived off the uncertainty. Will I have Haste in my guild? And if so, will I get Air Magic. And when you played, for example Nature in H4, you had 3 chances in your town to get a disabling spell (Song of Peace, Confusion, Wasp Swarm), the question being, which build would deliver and which skill would you have to learn (or which magic Hero would you hire). H5 was already borderline in that regard, Summoning Magic being under-developed in the abilities part, but at least the whole system being consistent and interesting.
I don't see that in H7. I made 3 tries to play a map which I stopped due to bugs that killed the fun, in all 3 tries I played Bilashi (because that's the hero percentages are known for and what schools he can't get), and in all 3 I got a low level probability magic skill offered early on - fine, but that you can pick that now in the guild makes things easy: wait with building, then pick, what's offered )you have air anyway) and go ahead - you must pick two basic skills or one advanced anyway in order to learn Tier 2 spells. In the game I played 2 weeks, I picked Water, built the guild, got Blizzard, picked up the ability for it as well, and voila.
The bottom line here is - the game isn't a clockwork where all cogs are turning just fine, it's a patchwork with half-baked solutions for unnecessary problems
Quote:
Now, they missed it on many respects. For instance what's the meaning of having more resources once again if no faction has a favored one or a useless one? You can't make strategical saboteur flagging, or trade useless resource for precious one, etc.
I consider that a balance problem (the game has no balance whatsoever, probably because everyone was buys making TbF and patching bugs, but that is certainly something they can change quite easily. Of course it's pointing to something that they made it that way in the first place.
Quote:
Another example, stopping the endless list of convoluted abilities on creatures is a good move, but not if you make all creatures bland in the end. These are the issues that reveal that they cannot get the priorities of their own game.
Yup, exactly. Keep in mind that Flanking, the way this works, is nothing else than giving all creatures the same ability (call it "Backstab" and let it do what flanking does - no difference).
Quote:
Most of all, HOMM3 was considered such a welcome installment also because it worked in a logic of expansion, as did HOMM2 upon HOMM. Making a lore with 9 factions and stubbornly cutting one or two each installments means not getting how much diversity and replayability is crucial for HOMM.
I think, it's safe to say, IF H7 had been well received and sold solid numbers, they would have delivered the other factions as well.
Quote:
Despite all that, though, the will to avert some of the bad routes HOMM6 took is there, and it should be mentioned.
Considering how things turned out, that's not nearly enough.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 04, 2016 01:41 PM |
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Momo said:
HOMM6 tried to break new ground, HOMM4 did that too, I'd say HOMM4 did a lot better.
I strongly disagree with that opinion. HOMM4 brought new graphics and camera, neither 3D nor 2D, making everything incredibly chaotic and terrible to look at. It also brought hero exactly into the battlefield, separate, chaotic units; it messed units among factions (and I could could continue).
On the other hand, HOMM6 came with nice graphics, many smaller improvements and new additional mechanics. It failed in the regards of classical Heroes gameplay because it tried to change too many things, like towntrees or hero development. But the game itself had, unlike H4, quite high potential with the things it brought, the issue was being too different and as an independent game it works quite well. I have personally found out that I enjoyed and focused on much different things than in other Heroes games. I was moreinterested in developing my dynasty than in the missionmap itself - but it was a different experience at least, with a chance to catch some new audience.
Generally said: H4 "only" changed existing things but H6 both changed mechanics and added new things which were quite interesting.
JJ said:
About the skillwheel...
I still don't see your point why H5 Magic system (or any previous one) was better according to you than the H7 one. The amount of spells you get in one magic school is approximately the same as in H5, you only get more schools (=more possibilities = higher replayabilitity) this time. Yes, you have some preferred Magic school, but you usually had one in H5 too. I would even say H5 was in this regard even more strict because you can have for example a haven hero specialised in Fire, light, earth, Air, water magic and he can cast these spells to be really powerful, while you have never been able to make your haven hero so good in any other Magic school than the light one, maybe in dark Magic too as the fallen knight.
What's more, you can even learn all spells with your hero but their power and effect depend on the skills you have learnt so these spells evolve during level-ups. I really don't say your (or any other's) issues with this system. Yes, it's not really random and you can influence the way you want to specialise your hero in, by that's definitely not harmful. H5 randomness was sometimes very annoying when you spent x skillpoints to get to some perk and then you lost the possibility due to bad luck.
Momo said:
Now, they missed it on many respects. For instance what's the meaning of having more resources once again if no faction has a favored one or a useless one? You can't make strategical saboteur flagging, or trade useless resource for precious one, etc.
There are some differences when you hire champion units but I agree more specializations would be nice.
JJ said:
Keep in mind that Flanking, the way this works, is nothing else than giving all creatures the same ability (call it "Backstab" and let it do what flanking does - no difference).
Every combat mechanics can be described in this way, for example shooters who are a very important aspect of armies are also "only the units with exactly the sa!g ability: ranged attack). Or defense action is the same, giving the creature an "ability" to lose your Turn in exchange for stat bonus. The point is you have to decide whether to move to some position (or to move forward at all) when it makes you more vulnerable.
...
Wondering why I like H7 so much, I found out it has not as many major mistakes as previous games had for me. It offers the perfect balance of gameplay, graphics and storyboard for me.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 04, 2016 01:46 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Kinda weird how people that like h7 just come to defend h7, but donīt even bother to open threads discussing campaigns, strategies, balancing and mods. Does that mean that h7 doesnīt quite offer other subjects of discussion other than criticising it? 
People who like H7 are too busy with working on their own projectsmodsmaps, providing balancing and other ideas on Steam where devs still read them, reporting hundreds of bugs andor defending H7 if they have some time left 
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 03:10 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 15:23, 04 Sep 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
I think, it's safe to say, IF H7 had been well received and sold solid numbers, they would have delivered the other factions as well.
You see, that's very unlikely. As I said once or twice, it's just against Ubi's policy. They don't want to give you the must-have HOMM title that will last for years, they don't wish to give you a game that leaves you satisfied with it and not wanting for more. They don't want to make a HOMM3 or, for heaven's sake, a Starcraft. They need to serialize and they are open and explicit about it. The factions are huge help in that respect because you can always cut them in a game and leave a portion of the fanbase wanting for them in the next installment. It works to a degree: hadn't I been disappointed for the lack of dwarves in HOMM6, I wouldn't have bought HOMM7:TbF now.
Antalyan said:
the issue was being too different and as an independent game it works quite well.
I think I'm engineering a second misunderstanding here. When I say that HOMM6 and HOMM7 could've been good games if not considered as HOMM, I am not praising them or trying to go easy on them.
An artistic property is a serious thing and should be taken seriously.
To express it better let me use an absurd example. Let's assume I make my personal roguelike game, like, I don't know, a 2d scroller that is actually quite good. Let's assume that I come up with the next "Braid" or something like that. That is to say, a pretty amazing game with the resources and tools I had. One could call it a masterpiece. Good work Momo! But I am worried my game would not sell because my name is not recognized and the indie scenery is crowded. Well, due to an incredible coincidence, I am the owner of the rights for Final Fantasy. So I sell my Braid-alike indie creations with the title "Final Fantasy XVI". Would you find my conduct a morally sound one? An artistically honest attitude? An ethic use of intellectual property? I bet not.
The example was clearly an over-extremization, but you see the reasoning there. Making a game in a series, even a decent or good or excellent game, that betrays to a varying degree the spirit of its own series is not a good achievement. Being faithful to your franchise, understanding it, respecting it - these things have value. HOMM6 / 7 failed at that.
As I said pages ago, they are sloppy products that should cater to some people but are evidently designed without caring for the need of such people (and no I'm not talking about the HC community of course) or understanding the priorities of the genre.
Mind you, I am just talking about the actual content of the game, not of the big issue about the lore and its makers or the technical aspetcs. It's always worth reminding that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 04:54 PM |
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Antalyan said:
JJ said:
About the skillwheel...
I still don't see your point why H5 Magic system (or any previous one) was better according to you than the H7 one. The amount of spells you get in one magic school is approximately the same as in H5, you only get more schools (=more possibilities = higher replayabilitity) this time. Yes, you have some preferred Magic school, but you usually had one in H5 too. I would even say H5 was in this regard even more strict because you can have for example a haven hero specialised in Fire, light, earth, Air, water magic and he can cast these spells to be really powerful, while you have never been able to make your haven hero so good in any other Magic school than the light one, maybe in dark Magic too as the fallen knight.
I don't think H5's magic system is that goood, for a couple of reasons, but it works quite well in connection with the skill system, and that makes all the difference. In H7 it's all very simple and easy: when you play random, wait until a school is offered and pick the skill; chose this as your favorite school; pick as many abilities as you need for the spells you get. Case closed.
With H5 things are different (except for the lame Summoning abilities. Let's say you go Destructive - what Master of ability to pick? You can pick at most 3 abilities, so things are not trivial. You get Lightning/Ice on L2 and Fire and Ice in L3, you get Lightning or irrelevant on 4 (there might be a Master of Earth ability), and Fire and Ice again on L5. So this isn't trivial. Storm is a dead end, although Sap Magic is useful against Destructive. Ice opens up Cold Death and Cold Steel in Offense. Fire opens up a lot, which means, you can take both Storm and Ice and then either Sap Magic or Cold Death OR you can go the complete fire route, but you need a L3 guild before your first Fire spell is even possible. Not trivial.
Quote:
What's more, you can even learn all spells with your hero but their power and effect depend on the skills you have learnt so these spells evolve during level-ups.
The problem is, that if you have a system in place that allows to improve spells - you don't actually need to learn all spells. In fact you need to learn only a couple, because it doesn't make sense to cast ineffective spells.
JJ said:
Keep in mind that Flanking, the way this works, is nothing else than giving all creatures the same ability (call it "Backstab" and let it do what flanking does - no difference).
Every combat mechanics can be described in this way, for example shooters who are a very important aspect of armies are also "only the units with exactly the sa!g ability: ranged attack). Or defense action is the same, giving the creature an "ability" to lose your Turn in exchange for stat bonus. The point is you have to decide whether to move to some position (or to move forward at all) when it makes you more vulnerable.
You cannot compare this. If you don't see that "Backstab" would be a good creature ability for certain Dungeon units or a Dungeon racial ability, but is total crap as an ability for every unit in the game, I cannot help you.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 05:30 PM |
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IMO flanking should have been like, you have your stack and attack an enemy creature from any side, no bonus there. If you follow up with another of your stacks attacking the same enemy then you get the flanking bonus.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 04, 2016 05:55 PM |
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 04, 2016 06:25 PM |
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Momo said:
Making a game in a series, even a decent or good or excellent game, that betrays to a varying degree the spirit of its own series is not a good achievement. Being faithful to your franchise, understanding it, respecting it - these things have value. HOMM6 / 7 failed at that.
As I said pages ago, they are sloppy products that should cater to some people but are evidently designed without caring for the need of such people (and no I'm not talking about the HC community of course) or understanding the priorities of the genre.
I think I understand your point as I don't say it's a good strategy but it happens in many series: choosing different ways the game walks on to attract some new fans or to evolve the series at all, even if it means losing the part of the hardcore ones. And yes, I would prefer to see some evolutions and new features instead of changing the existing features. I just say this series is only one of many where it is happening.
The point I disagree with: H7. H6 has chosen a different way, H7 should have been the attempt to return back to the working, classical mechanics and from my point of view it works. Yes, the evolution could have been gone much further, it is even a step back in some regards against H6 and bugs and optimization are not good. But it should still satissfy H5 fans and it actually does many outside HC. Nobody has been able to convince me about H7 game mechanics being bad or not appropriate for this series as they are based on previous games. I am still pretty sure that if the game had been released in a good state without major bugs and well optimized, it would have been very well rated, even if some (not only) old school fans would have kept complaining about lore and the overall mechanics.
JollyJoker said:
I don't think H5's magic system is that goood, for a couple of reasons, but it works quite well in connection with the skill system, and that makes all the difference. In H7 it's all very simple and easy: when you play random, wait until a school is offered and pick the skill; chose this as your favorite school; pick as many abilities as you need for the spells you get. Case closed.
With H5 things are different (except for the lame Summoning abilities. Let's say you go Destructive - what Master of ability to pick? You can pick at most 3 abilities, so things are not trivial. You get Lightning/Ice on L2 and Fire and Ice in L3, you get Lightning or irrelevant on 4 (there might be a Master of Earth ability), and Fire and Ice again on L5. So this isn't trivial. Storm is a dead end, although Sap Magic is useful against Destructive. Ice opens up Cold Death and Cold Steel in Offense. Fire opens up a lot, which means, you can take both Storm and Ice and then either Sap Magic or Cold Death OR you can go the complete fire route, but you need a L3 guild before your first Fire spell is even possible. Not trivial.
H5 destructive magic includes several schools from H7 in one. So it means you have to choose one of the three paths: fire, lightning/air or ice/water or have something from each - that's pretty similar to learning only one of these schools till max or to learn these schools only until novice in H7. So you can do the same you could in H5 too but you can develop it even further so it works like having unlimited amount of perks in H5.
As regards other magic schools, it is true you can learn all abilities in them but consider also some H5 perks which did not have much to do with spells themselves, like the cold steel you speak about. So it does not matter much if you could not learn them because it was usually clear which of them are more useful for magic and which for might heroes. If you spend your skillpoints into one magic school in H7, it can be really powerful but there are some creatures resistant to that magic and you won't be able to get for example lucky spells or develop your racial skill for these skillpoints. The restrictions are in the amount of skillpoints you have and in the amount of grandmasters you can reach.
JollyJoker said:
The problem is, that if you have a system in place that allows to improve spells - you don't actually need to learn all spells. In fact you need to learn only a couple, because it doesn't make sense to cast ineffective spells.
And you had to in any previous games? It used to be the same in H5. Some spells like haste can still be useful in certain occasions even with no mastery in them.
JollyJoker said:
You cannot compare this. If you don't see that "Backstab" would be a good creature ability for certain Dungeon units or a Dungeon racial ability, but is total crap as an ability for every unit in the game, I cannot help you.
Yes I see it might be maybe better for dungeon than making it general mechanics but it does not hurt me so much.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Varnoc
Hired Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 06:58 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
IMO flanking should have been like, you have your stack and attack an enemy creature from any side, no bonus there. If you follow up with another of your stacks attacking the same enemy then you get the flanking bonus.
Possibly a combination of this and the existing system?
A Stack attacking another from a "Flank" receives a bonus, that bonus is then multiplied by the number of allied stacks adjacent to that one?
This would be dependent on other things (The movement grid shape and creature sizes, among other things), but may be a little more dynamic than what currently exists.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 04, 2016 07:01 PM |
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Varnoc said:
GenyaArikado said:
IMO flanking should have been like, you have your stack and attack an enemy creature from any side, no bonus there. If you follow up with another of your stacks attacking the same enemy then you get the flanking bonus.
Possibly a combination of this and the existing system?
A Stack attacking another from a "Flank" receives a bonus, that bonus is then multiplied by the number of allied stacks adjacent to that one?
This would be dependent on other things (The movement grid shape and creature sizes, among other things), but may be a little more dynamic than what currently exists.
That does not sound bad but it is too similar to sylvan racial skill.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 04, 2016 07:24 PM |
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yogi said:
Antalyan said:
People who like H7 are too busy reporting hundreds of bugs
wut
I thought H7 is the best game ever without any bugs!
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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Varnoc
Hired Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 07:52 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Varnoc said:
Possibly a combination of this and the existing system?
A Stack attacking another from a "Flank" receives a bonus, that bonus is then multiplied by the number of allied stacks adjacent to that one?
This would be dependent on other things (The movement grid shape and creature sizes, among other things), but may be a little more dynamic than what currently exists.
That does not sound bad but it is too similar to sylvan racial skill.
I'd argue it's more similar to the game of GO than anything. Barring external references though, I can agree that it's similar in function to the Sylvan's racial.
My comment was more aimed at systems for future installments, so perhaps the Sylvan will receive a different racial at that time? (That is, of course, assuming a future installment)
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 04, 2016 08:05 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 20:26, 04 Sep 2016.
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Antalyan said:
The point I disagree with: H7. H6 has chosen a different way, H7 should have been the attempt to return back to the working, classical mechanics and from my point of view it works. Yes, the evolution could have been gone much further, it is even a step back in some regards against H6 and bugs and optimization are not good. But it should still satissfy H5 fans and it actually does many outside HC. Nobody has been able to convince me about H7 game mechanics being bad or not appropriate for this series as they are based on previous games. I am still pretty sure that if the game had been released in a good state without major bugs and well optimized, it would have been very well rated, even if some (not only) old school fans would have kept complaining about lore and the overall mechanics.
This is exactly my viewpoint as well. If the game had been released in a technically acceptable state, it would have had better reviews than H6. It is the amount of bugs and the lacking optimization (RAM issues, slow startup) that caused the bad reviews e.g. on Steam, not the content of the game itself. I do understand that there are some fans of older games who don't like the overall setting and direction the game is going to, but as I have said many times, this criticicm is highly subjective and is based only on taste, not facts. Take for example the following topics:
- 3D vs 2D,
- how many magic schools,
- how many rare resources,
- how diverse is a lineup (e.g. all beasts or all race-specific or mixed)
- color coding of factions
- flanking or no flanking
All the above issues can go one way or the other and there will always be players who like it and those who don't (I for example like the Flanking mechanic and think it is a good addition to the game).
When I rate a Heroes game - besides the subjective overall appeal of the game - I mostly look at the following:
1) Does the game offer the gameplay features that make a Heroes game successful: RMG, sim-turns, random skilling, town screens, good single-player campaigns, many factions to choose from etc.
2) Is the gameplay diverse and entertaining or is every map a repetition of the last one? (this is also partially subjective, but e.g. I think we can all agree the skill tree of H6 was repetitive).
3) Is the game functional or is does it bug out / crash and burn every few minutes?
4) Is the multiplayer experience satisfactory and are there enough people working on custom maps to keep the player base growing?
In the specific case of H7, I rate the game as excellent in categories (1) and (2) (debatable), and very bad in categories (3) and (4). Nevertheless, those last 2 categories are the ones that can improve with bug fixing and balancing - which is also why I am not giving up on the game.
Don't get me wrong, I have played all Heroes H3-H7 to death and, from a gameplay perspective, I do not see which are the areas where H7 is failing to deliver. The big fiasco for me was the bugfest, the rest I actually like very much.
Antalyan said:
I strongly disagree with that opinion. HOMM4 brought new graphics and camera, neither 3D nor 2D, making everything incredibly chaotic and terrible to look at. It also brought hero exactly into the battlefield, separate, chaotic units; it messed units among factions (and I could could continue).
Sacrilege!
HOMM4 was amazing, if only for the very well-written campaigns. Tawni Balfour for ever!
I also didn't like that the factions were all jumbled up (e.g. that Chaos lineup made no sense at all), but gameplay-wise the game was actually great and I found fights pleasant to look at and follow. I also think that the pseudo-3D battles were a big improvement over H3. Maybe you just could not get used to the fact that the hero was acting like a unit?
EDIT:
Brukernavn said:
I think the direction they went with H6 and H7 would have been much better suited for Kings Bounty.
But those two games hardly go in the same direction, only the art style is similar (or same in many cases, due to the re-used assets).
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted September 04, 2016 08:07 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
I thought H7 is the best game ever without any bugs!
I don't think anyone is saying that.
Antalyan said:
Nobody has been able to convince me about H7 game mechanics being bad or not appropriate for this series as they are based on previous games.
Are you not contradicting yourself here?
It's difficult to be specific if you impose an arbitrary standard saying all arguments that relate to other games are invalid. The main gripe with H7 mechanics is not that they are terrible per se, but that they are mediocre. For the first game in a series mediocre is OK, for an idie game mediocre is OK, but for the seventh installation in a series where the goal is to be the "best of Heroes", mediocre is not OK. It's like releasing a "best of" album and excluding all the #1 hits.
Antalyan said:
I am still pretty sure that if the game had been released in a good state without major bugs and well optimized, it would have been very well rated, even if some (not only) old school fans would have kept complaining about lore and the overall mechanics.
I think the direction they went with H6 and H7 would have been much better suited for Kings Bounty.
EDIT:
SoilBurn said:
EDIT:
Brukernavn said:
I think the direction they went with H6 and H7 would have been much better suited for Kings Bounty.
But those two games hardly go in the same direction, only the art style is similar (or same in many cases, due to the re-used assets).
A reply within a reply, this is like something out of Inception 
I was thinking about things like:
- Stronger focus on one main hero, insted of many heroes
- Story-driven campaigns and maps
- Multiple side quests and backtracking over the same map
- Stronger focus on kingdom/areas
- Removal of randomness
If they started with KB instead of Heroes, I think the end result would be a better game, but that's just how I imagine it.
SoilBurn said:
but as I have said many times, this criticicm is highly subjective and is based only on taste, not facts.
Gaming, like any form of entertainment, is by nature subjective. That does not somehow invalidate any form of criticism or praise, and you can still use facts to support your view. For instance the number of resources will have an impact on the game, and you can to a large degree objectively argue those impacts. Whether you like the effect it has or not - that is subjective. But you can still have a meaningful dialog about the implications, and even be persuaded by well presented arguments.
I rate games in a very simple way: Is it fun?
Sometimes I can pinpoint what it is that makes it fun or not by myself. Other times I like to read the reasons other people have for liking or disliking the game. Many of them will be irrelevant for me, but some of them can shed light on things I had not thought of before.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 04, 2016 09:59 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
It's like releasing a "best of" album and excluding all the #1 hits.
Funny you should say that, this is exactly how it feels for me.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted September 04, 2016 10:03 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
It's like releasing a "best of" album and excluding all the #1 hits.
More like all the tops fives.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 04, 2016 10:24 PM |
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LOL. 
Yup, exactly.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2016 02:29 AM |
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Antalyan said:
I think I understand your point as I don't say it's a good strategy but it happens in many series: choosing different ways the game walks on to attract some new fans or to evolve the series at all, even if it means losing the part of the hardcore ones. And yes, I would prefer to see some evolutions and new features instead of changing the existing features. I just say this series is only one of many where it is happening.
It has happen and will again in the future. The problem hinges on "Has the new installment, with all its faults, caught what the spirit of the original series is?
I this case most of us answer: no.
Antalyan said:
The point I disagree with: H7. H6 has chosen a different way, H7 should have been the attempt to return back to the working, classical mechanics and from my point of view it works. Yes, the evolution could have been gone much further, it is even a step back in some regards against H6 and bugs and optimization are not good. But it should still satissfy H5 fans and it actually does many outside HC. Nobody has been able to convince me about H7 game mechanics being bad or not appropriate for this series as they are based on previous games. I am still pretty sure that if the game had been released in a good state without major bugs and well optimized, it would have been very well rated, even if some (not only) old school fans would have kept complaining about lore and the overall mechanics.
HOMM7 wasn't gunned down by all that negative reviews, check metacritic by yourself. Optimization aside, it isn't a terrible game if taken in a vacuum. Problem being no game exist in a vacuum. A mediocre product that comes as a promise of reviving a struggling series with a great past makes up for a terrible experience, you should realize that.
And as for why their return to the roots doesn't work exactly all that much, you can read my previous post for some examples, like the new resource system with seven resources.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 05, 2016 03:55 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
This is exactly my viewpoint as well. If the game had been released in a technically acceptable state, it would have had better reviews than H6. It is the amount of bugs and the lacking optimization (RAM issues, slow startup) that caused the bad reviews e.g. on Steam, not the content of the game itself. I do understand that there are some fans of older games who don't like the overall setting and direction the game is going to, but as I have said many times, this criticicm is highly subjective and is based only on taste, not facts. Take for example the following topics:
- 3D vs 2D,
- how many magic schools,
- how many rare resources,
- how diverse is a lineup (e.g. all beasts or all race-specific or mixed)
- color coding of factions
- flanking or no flanking
All the above issues can go one way or the other and there will always be players who like it and those who don't (I for example like the Flanking mechanic and think it is a good addition to the game).
-3D vs 2D, can't believe of opening this again, but OBJECTIVELY, you see better on a 2D map, punkt schluss.
- Magic schools  http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40444&PID=1331267#focus
- Reducing resources dumbed down creeping considerably, since you had to aim for only ONE type.
- How diverse is a lineup yes it is taste, my taste goes towards NWC's vision.
- Color coding makes sense in a speed game like Starcraft, not TBS lmao, but you can like it for cosmetics and that is subjective.
- Flanking is nice concept but implementation needs to hold water, JJ made some good points on the subject, unfortunately I can't find them to redirect you but they're here.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
