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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 06, 2016 04:58 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 17:00, 06 Sep 2016.
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Macron1 said:
Napoleon didn't rotate camera in battles he won.
Good thing Napoleon didn't play video games then 
Verriker said:
stuff
Way to twist my words there, "mate".
I never said I "plucked out" specific reviews or anything, I just read through. I was deciding whether to buy the game at that time, so I had absolutely no reason to handpick reviews or anything (quite on the contrary, based on the reviews I was negatively predisposed - towards not buying the game).
And I certainly don't have the patience to go through 1k reviews, it is however admirable if you did.
Moreover,as I said above, the people that criticize gameplay and design seem to be gathered on HC. And most of the gameplay/design criticism I have read here is based on taste, not facts (still valid criticism of course, but it is up to anyone's tastes).
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 06, 2016 05:01 PM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 17:02, 06 Sep 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
Generally, an intolerable amount of bugs leads to a SLIGHTLY lower score with releases of major games, because 1) the bigger reviewers mostly get early versions, with developers ensuring them, that those bugs will of course be fixed soon(TM), and 2) reviewers like to point out the POTENTIAL of a game.
You'd have to dig really deep to find a potentially great game that got devastating reviews because of bugs.
In my opinion bugs will always be annoying, but the better the gameplay, the more will reviewers say something along the lines of "I can't wait to play this again when the gameplay is not marred by bugs".
Didn't happen with H7, sorry.
Instead - if the game is NOT ONLY buggy, but, let's say, not immediately captivating, and the reviewer is feeling like working through the game, waiting for something that eventually feels great and so on, bugs will be even more annoying: you lose progress or cannot continue or didn't get the deserved reward for your doings - and the idea to start all over again seems appaling, THEN the bugs are really adding insult to injury.
Bugs are also an easy excuse for really down-scoring a game you don't like, but cannot actually put your finger upon the reasons why.
I also think, that H7 does comparatively well when you just look at the campaigns. If it was ONLY about campaigns, H7 might just well be the best game of the last three versions, if you can live with the bad AI.
But obviously that doesn't mean a lot, since campaigns aren't really what makes the game a good one; following scripted events isn't really playing a strategy game.
You can be right about bugs decreasing the game score only slightly. Unfortunately, in the case of H7, bugs are not the only things which annoyed people who had bought the game at the time of its release. The game was incredibly unfinished in many regards: AI turns took ages, the game was crashing, you could not often complete the game. These are exactly the things which make you really angry and which significantly change your view - then you will more likely see the things worse than they are. It's true that most of people will not lose their time with the broken game - they will say that everything's wrong and broken and they move forward to another game. That's why I btw. don't like reviews at all (as the thing to look at if you decide about buying the game or not) because even if the game has 90% of negative reviews, nobody can tell you if this game won't become by some coincidence your most favourite one ever - but I admit that's not a valid point in this discussion.
To be fair, it's true some people did not like the gameplay at all - but it happen in all series, you cannot like all the games
Speaking about campaigns, I respect your opinion but for me and for many others I have met, campaigns are a key part of the game (do I have to remind you that 80% of Heroes players play only singleplayer according to the recent Ubisoft survey?). Following scripted events does not definitely mean no strategy. It means every mission is different if it is done well.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 06, 2016 05:08 PM |
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Macron1 said:
SoilBurn said:
Moreover, the battle looks more realistic and not like tic-tac-toe.
Napoleon didn't rotate camera in battles he won.
I don't want to start this discussion (2D x 3D) again.
It's obvious it depends on your personal preferences - each of them has its pros and cons.
I would just like to add that this can make a huge difference if the game is in 2D or 3D, if they will enjoy the game or not.
I am personally definitely for 3D and I know I can't play the games in 2D now, they look too old and not realistic for my taste - but as I said, I respect your opinions from the exactly opposite side.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 05:20 PM |
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Antalyan said:
campaigns are a key part of the game (do I have to remind you that 80% of Heroes players play only singleplayer according to the recent Ubisoft survey?).
I doubt that is refering to the campaigns but actually single player scenarios. I could be wrong because I don't know which survey you're talking about.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2016 05:40 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Way to twist my words there, "mate".
I never said I "plucked out" specific reviews or anything, I just read through. I was deciding whether to buy the game at that time, so I had absolutely no reason to handpick reviews or anything (quite on the contrary, based on the reviews I was negatively predisposed - towards not buying the game).
And I certainly don't have the patience to go through 1k reviews, it is however admirable if you did.
Moreover,as I said above, the people that criticize gameplay and design seem to be gathered on HC. And most of the gameplay/design criticism I have read here is based on taste, not facts (still valid criticism of course, but it is up to anyone's tastes).
hmm not trying to twist words mate, not really what I was trying to get at there, sorry maybe should have been clearer,
wasn't suggesting you would deliberately pluck out reviews for a sinster reason, I was just pointing out the evidence of 50 reviews you came across is anecdotal and doesn't really prove anything, because someone else can also easily come across 50 reviews complaining about everything from art, AI, design, pacing, story, etc, they're out there, so it's not a valid evidence to your statement that "it is the amount of bugs and the lacking optimization (RAM issues, slow startup) that caused the bad reviews e.g. on Steam, not the content of the game itself" lol
I wouldn't really say HC is a main place of Heroes 7 criticism in particular btw, actually almost all English HoMM fansites have died off so many fans are just at HC by default because it is active, however if you look around you can find lots of users dissatisfied with the game at Ubisoft Forums, The Heroes Round Table, La Torre De Marfil, DF2, Forums of Enroth, Steam Forums, former Shadow Council, Facebook etc, it's not isolated to one place lol
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 05:55 PM |
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"Campaigns - fun / best/ main part ..."
I'm still baffled and no one made me understand so far: is it really so enjoyable facing an extremely retarded opponent?
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 06, 2016 06:08 PM |
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@JJ
I forgot to add that the way how Ubisoft behaved to fans during the game development and to the game itself /budget/ definitely did not help the game in reviews.
Datapack said:
Antalyan said:
campaigns are a key part of the game (do I have to remind you that 80% of Heroes players play only singleplayer according to the recent Ubisoft survey?).
I doubt that is refering to the campaigns but actually single player scenarios. I could be wrong because I don't know which survey you're talking about.
Actually it was whole singleplayer (without any specification) I think.
Aionb said:
"Campaigns - fun / best/ main part ..."
I'm still baffled and no one made me understand so far: is it really so enjoyable facing an extremely retarded opponent?
It's about having more diverse experience thanks to it and exploring the story, you know I'm a big fan of anything connected with the world (and I doubt it would even change if the world changed) so I really like exploring the stories and looking for new connections between information and charactures.
Btw. To answer in another (modest) question: No one made me understand so far: is it really so enjoyable to play mobas and to play exactly the same fights with the same conditions? /with different skills, true, but if you cook a pasta 1000x times, you still cook a pasta and it tastes like pasta
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 06, 2016 06:26 PM |
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I think it's time to plug off this thread. It's the same neverending discussion and I doubt that ubi will pull out another expac since TbF barely sold 5-6k copies. Unless it is specified in the contract but that's unlikely. I am pretty sure that the h7 development will most likely officialy end in several months and the game will enter in the same limbo h6 went to.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 06:55 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I think it's time to plug off this thread. It's the same neverending discussion and I doubt that ubi will pull out another expac since TbF barely sold 5-6k copies. Unless it is specified in the contract but that's unlikely. I am pretty sure that the h7 development will most likely officialy end in several months and the game will enter in the same limbo h6 went to.
I would just like to motivate Ubilimbic to add those missing two factions. The reason I am not buying H7 is simply the lack of factions and not anything discussed here between people who do not even play the game (Trial By Fire - because hey, time to forget the base game ). And I am not sure I am alone with this problem (on HC maybe yes). So come on UBI, don’t give up! I don’t want to wait years for H8, H7 seems to be a good base for a good game. Just don’t abandon it like you did with H6.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 06, 2016 07:23 PM |
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Bitula said:
I would just like to motivate Ubilimbic to add those missing two factions. The reason I am not buying H7 is simply the lack of factions and not anything discussed here between people who do not even play the game (Trial By Fire - because hey, time to forget the base game ). And I am not sure I am alone with this problem (on HC maybe yes). So come on UBI, don’t give up! I don’t want to wait years for H8, H7 seems to be a good base for a good game. Just don’t abandon it like you did with H6.
Quoting to support the cause. Giff Inferno and Sanctuary Ubi!!
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 07:29 PM |
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Sounds good but those factions cost money. So either they will be implemented the wrong way or they will not be implemented at all.
And ubi wasn't motivated to hire a decent developer,it will be motivated to add more factions because of 4 fans?
I'm all for all the factions to be in the game but it sounds at leqst utopic.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 06, 2016 07:39 PM |
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yup as much as I sympathise, like any company Vivendisoft must follow the law of supply and demand,
you must understand realistically there isn't any demand or mindshare for Heroes 7 beyond a very small vocal minority, the terrible Steam sales figures and abysmal promotion of the Dwarven expansion confirm this, it would make no business sense lol
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 06, 2016 07:41 PM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 06, 2016 07:42 PM |
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Aionb said:
"Campaigns - fun / best/ main part ..."
I'm still baffled and no one made me understand so far: is it really so enjoyable facing an extremely retarded opponent?
That's why in most missions the AI is scripted to leave you alone. Sigh.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 08:13 PM |
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@ Antalyan
That campaigns are important for you helps me to understand why you like H7, and I can accept that.
For me, the game has never been much about campaigns. For me, it's about ONE map, playing and winning it.
I used to play maps quite often, playing the same position, just with a different town - for me it's more about playing the game instead of following the story.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 08:43 PM |
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I've always treated campaigns as tutorials introducing me to the game. If they dragged on for no good reason and stopped teaching me, then I would abandon them and search for custom games, mods and multiplayer. I personally find replayability features to be of a greater importance than campagins. If this sentiment is shared by a majority of players, then that just means that Heroes 7 blundered again, even in spite of all the initial promises.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 06, 2016 08:54 PM |
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Yes but H3 campaigns were no cakewalk, especially shadow of death. There might have been some easier ones here and there but they didn't feel like tutorial missions.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 09:11 PM |
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I'm still not prepared to excuse the awful level-up caps in campaigns, introduced by H3.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 06, 2016 09:31 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
@ Antalyan
That campaigns are important for you helps me to understand why you like H7, and I can accept that.
For me, the game has never been much about campaigns. For me, it's about ONE map, playing and winning it.
I used to play maps quite often, playing the same position, just with a different town - for me it's more about playing the game instead of following the story.
I can confirm it helps me understand reasons why you dislike H7 too. I don't wonder opinions rating the game from a bit different perspectives differ - especially if subjective preferences are added to it, too.
Levels caps are what I hate in campaigns the most.
Fortunately TbF campaigns are told not to have them.
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 06, 2016 10:15 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 22:21, 06 Sep 2016.
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verriker said:
btw please take care not to assume that content isn't the problem and the game would have sold or reviewed significantly better without bugs and bad optimisation,
AI doubt you're addressing me, but still, just for the sake of clarity, that's not what I'm saying, I can't speak for others. I'm just saying that if you put the technical problems aside (once again: just for the sake of argument, because there is no real reason for us to forgive that) the game isn't looking to me as that bad to justify hating it, or those who made it. If the game wasn't a HOMM title but was, said, a "Ashan's Great Battle of Morons" nobody would be here discussing how horrible AGBM is; it'd be a game deserving a 6/10 or a 5.5/10 which, with much better TBS around with less requirements and at a lower cost, would just be forgotten and ignored. Some would find that they love it despite its mediocrity, and that would be fine and that'd be that. The fact that it was a HOMM, and its failure to be a proper HOMM, the fact that is an high budgeted product (or rather: it's not high budgeted at all, but was sold as being one) and the context in which it was born -especially the devs' attitude- are what makes the game relevant to us, in a bad way (for most of us). If extrapolated from its context and hypothetically cleared of bugs et al, it's not that much offensive as a game really, in the factual circumstances it is offensive to the fanbase. It can be seen as a merely theoretical nonsense, but it is just being objective I think.
verriker said:
btw bear in mind there is actually such a thing as bad or incoherent design, it's not an objective matter but it's similar to bad writing,
Hmmm no, I think it is a tad bit more objective than bad writing.
For instances, campaings in Starcraft 2 are built with a solid concept at its fundation: to give you an array of additional features that alters the gameplay according to your storyline decisions, management options, RPG-like evolution of your characters, etc etc etc. They make it like so because they want the campaigns to be unique, intriguing and different from skirmishes and multiplayer. On the opposite, HOMM's campaing in the 5th and 6th chapter are made "interesting" by cutting your access to most features of the faction until much later in the campaigns; in some cases you're even locked with just core units for a whole scenario.
Now one could say he/she finds the second approach more fun but it's quite objective that more money, efforts, creativity and overall work are necessary for the first approach. So even if whatever is fun and pleasant is up to your tastes, the first approach is at the very least a serious attempt at good design, the second is just being sloppy and lazy. And that is very much an objective fact.
verriker said:
that's the game fighting with itself,
Once again, mate, I do not entirely agree. I think it was very consistent. I think LeBreton had the clear goal in mind to make economy planning, space-controlling, reading and confounding the enemy and overall everything strategic less relevant (or entirely unrelevant) and the apt tactical management of the many intricate creature abilities, finalized to keep the same number of units after the fight, as the one and only fundation of the game and the only key to success. I don't think there is any contradiction in that. In fact, together with a couple other dogmas (e.g. the lore should rule over gameplay) I think it is one of the few things Erwan's team actually had clearly pictured in their mind.
I just think it was a horrible route for the franchise, but coherently horrible at least.
verriker said:
there are many similar examples in Heroes 7 too, Jolly Joker has made lists of them lol
Due to my limited experience with HOMM7, could you please point me to this lists of examples? It'd be interesting to read it, to get a better grip of what HOMM7 tastes like when it is consistently played.
I'm going to change PC soon, so I was wondering if porting HOMM7 in my new machine could be worth it, in the end I had a few games that I enjoyed in HOMM6, so it could be worth a shot. I'd like negative examples from someone who played HOMM7 more than I did, just to anticipate how much will I have to suffer for my undeserved affection for the series 
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
