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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:44, 12 Sep 2016.
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Antalyan said:
Exactly the same like certain people here can "know" about H7 
Assuming you mean the "good old ones", I heard a lot about them. Sure that's not the same as if I played them. And I can also recognise it from many other opinions here saying the things I like were simply not there.
I do, that's why I am discussing them. And just hearing about them won't do them justice in any way. The map mayout and tactics are a lot different from mission to mission but there are some quite interesting ones: Like armageddon's blade 1st map, Adrienne 4th map, Gem 4th map, Mutare 1st map.. It has been ages but I still remember them, simply because they were good.
Antalyan said:
But if your question is how different campaigns are in strategy, then I have to probably say that in no significant way. Strategic features are the same, no matter if you are playing campaign or skirmish. Again, I think we have already had this discussion many pages back but I like these RPG features in campaigns.
That's not it. A strategy is something you decide based on the map layout, enemy positioning, resource availality and so on. What JJ was getting at is that H7 campaigns have very little strategical value since there is not much left to the player. Most maps do not even have an opposing AI and all that you have to do is follow the directions. There are some maps that are more complex than the rest but they are so pathetically easy that it hardly seems to matter..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 12, 2016 04:58 PM |
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Elvin said:
Antalyan said:
Exactly the same like certain people here can "know" about H7
Assuming you mean the "good old ones", I heard a lot about them. Sure that's not the same as if I played them. And I can also recognise it from many other opinions here saying the things I like were simply not there.
I do, that's why I am discussing them. And just hearing about them won't do them justice in any way. The map mayout and tactics are a lot different from mission to mission but there are some quite interesting ones: Like armageddon's blade 1st map, Adrienne 4th map, Gem 4th map, Mutare 1st map.. It has been ages but I still remember them, simply because they were good.
If only H3 was redone in 3D... Then I could test it myself.
Elvin said:
Antalyan said:
But if your question is how different campaigns are in strategy, then I have to probably say that in no significant way. Strategic features are the same, no matter if you are playing campaign or skirmish. Again, I think we have already had this discussion many pages back but I like these RPG features in campaigns.
That's not it. A strategy is something you decide based on the map layout, enemy positioning, resource availality and so on. What JJ was getting at is that H7 campaigns have very little strategical value since there is not much left to the player. Most maps do not even have an opposing AI and all that you have to do is follow the directions. There are some maps that are more complex than the rest but they are so pathetically easy that it hardly seems to matter..
Maybe they have less strategical value and I also admit they are too easy but they are still the most different to the rest of the game (skirmish) I remember.
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 12, 2016 07:13 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 19:34, 12 Sep 2016.
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verriker said:
ofc I understand there may be a language barrier if English is not your native language, but I merely suggest that IMHO that word has too strong connotations for the tone of discourse going on here, I certainly see lots of apathy, criticism, disdain and mockery of that production but not much unbridled hate lol
While "disdain" and "mockery" do not have strong connotations? 
I told you already in a PM that your messages border on trolling, and this is another example thereof. Calling out on another user for supposedly having a "language barrier" when it is quite obvious that they don't, can only be described as an underhanded personal remark. I strongly recommend that you place yourself on the receiving end of your own statements the next time before you click on "post reply" 
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted September 12, 2016 07:46 PM |
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Edited by AnkVaati at 19:47, 12 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
I told you already in a PM that your messages border on trolling, and this is another example thereof. Calling out on another user for supposedly having a "language barrier" when it is quite obvious that they don't, can only be described as an underhanded personal remark
Maurice said:
I've noticed that posters here who are critics of the game tend to point out flaws and shortcomings up to and including ridiculing people like Erwan (being the figurehead of UbiSoft with respect to the game), while people who like the game and disagree with the flaws and shortcomings being pointed out tend to get personal with the critics of the game. That's where the line is crossed and mods eventually are forced to intervene, reprimanding people (on both sides of the fence) and deleting/editing posts to quench the fire before it reaches the barrel of gunpowder.
........
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 12, 2016 07:57 PM |
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Careful, people, we're headed to dangerous waters again. The Mod Patrol Boats are traversing those waters and their board cannons carry live ammo .
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 12, 2016 08:06 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
While "disdain" and "mockery" do not have strong connotations?
for sure if we say HC users tend to disdain Heroes 7 or HC users tend to mock Heroes 7, it is a lot less sensational and a lot more accurate IMO than HC users tend to hate Heroes 7 mate lol
IMO if for an extreme example we were often saying things like, "**** that ******* piece of **** game needs to **** off and ******* die in a ******* fire", that kind of thing qualifies as hate for me, but when what we are more or less doing is picking apart the game with cynical remarks, jaded attitudes and dumb memes, I don't think we can argue that's hatred, it's not as impassioned or as inflammatory as hatred IMHO lol
SoilBurn said:
I told you already in a PM that your messages border on trolling, and this is another example thereof. Calling out another user for supposedly having a "language barrier" when it is quite obvious that they don't, can only be described as an underhanded personal remark. I strongly recommend that you place yourself on the receiving end of your own statements the next time before you click on "post reply"
apologies for that mate, to be honest though there's no intention to troll or border on troll here mate,
please understand merely raising the possibility of a language barrier is a mark of etiquette and definitely not a personal matter or intended to upset anyone, rather I am simply trying to remain sensitive and fair before questioning someone's terminology in case that's beyond their control,
HC is a very diverse community with members all over the world a majority for whom English is their second language, thus no matter whether a user's English seems very poor or very proficient, we must still respect each other and account for any possible disadvantage when critiquing use of language lol
bear in mind I hail from Scotland, I don't know where you are from and no way to tell, but if for instance you had revealed you are from Nigeria and English is your fifth language, I would feel very bad and embarrassed for presuming to discuss your use of language, thus I merely raise it to avoid that situation lol
personally I'd say my latest posts have been quite measured and respectful to fellow users, I would have no problem being the recipient of the questions and gentle critiques I have been putting forward, thus not sure why would you feel it is a troll but fair enough cheers lol
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 12, 2016 09:11 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 21:13, 12 Sep 2016.
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Maurice said:
Careful, people, we're headed to dangerous waters again. The Mod Patrol Boats are traversing those waters and their board cannons carry live ammo .
Like I have said before, double standards are double standards. In other forums I would have expected several warnings by now when certain users become personal. But I guess that if you start warning the regulars, HC will run out of users soon, so I guess I do understand your predicament a bit
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 12, 2016 09:13 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 21:15, 12 Sep 2016.
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@verriker:
verriker said:
even if I will likely agree with it and thus not be able to add much, I would certainly like to read your proposed post breaking Ashan down Momo, if it's not too time-consuming to write that is, I'm always curious to see an in-depth perspective from someone who debates intelligently and eloquently lol
It'd be time consuming probably, but still fun for me to write. Analyzing the lore of something is a good past time for those who enjoy it. My only worry is that it would eat up a whole page of this thread at least. This is why I'd have liked the boards to have a spoilerblock option.
@Soilburn and @b0rsuk
Actually I like Ashan from an aesthethic standpoint. I said it over and over. I don't think one could objectively label the new art direction as the cause for the state of the series.
Of course, there is a connection from the art direction to the mediocrity of these games: if you want to turn HOMM in a parade of carefully designed high-fantasy critters in high-definition and high-resolution with all sorts of fanciest and gimmicky powers, if you invest all your money in that and neglect pretty much everything else, then it is only your fault that the game looks awfully boring, linear and bland. Compared to a Age of Wonders or even the small Warlocks:Masters of the Arcane or much others TBS (and even RTS!) in which diversity rules supreme, all sorts of stuff happens and many level of thinking are involved to manage the multiple directions the strategic course of the game could take, a game of modern HOMM (as in, Ubi HOMM) is a tranquilizer dart in your skull; not much really happens within them.
But still, you could have made Axeoth with Ashan-like visuals, or you could've made just Ashan, and still come up with good stories and good gameplay. They did neither.
@Antalyan:
It is surprising that some think the campaings are interesting, because of the many good, tried and true routes the campaigns could take, in both HOMM5, 6 and 7 they mostly fail to take any.
Gaming history flourishes with examples: HOMM3: multi-quest adventures scattered on the map with a loosely focused goal; HOMM4: basic gameplay with huge maps that rewards you with chunks of good storyline; Warlocks, Armello, countless others: the endless repetition of widely differing variants of the same story with the same goal that is central to the game's lore; Starcraft: altered and enriched gameplay with an interaction between your assets and your choices in the story; I could go on and on and on on the many, many choices the devs could've made to make the campaigns anything more than glorified skirmishes. They instead chose to make the campaigns DIMINISHED skirmishes, with mono-railed goals, obnoxious limitations in creatures, structures, choices, mostly no sidequests, etc etc etc. The fact that the plots are sometimes below decent and probably worse than the lore is, doesn't help either.
Tastes are tastes but, as I said, it is objective that the campaigns are a sloppy and underdeveloped piece of work.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 12, 2016 10:03 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 22:04, 12 Sep 2016.
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vitirr said:
blob2 said:
H7 Stronghold theme is not a strong one, but I think Paul wanted to refer to H2 theme maybe?
I don't know which weird versions of the H2 town themes are spread in youtube these days (unfortunately there seems to be one configuration for every version and repackaging that was released) but that was definitely the Necropolis town theme not the barbarian one when I played the game
No mate, here's the whole soundtrack. I've brough this up cause I remembered it from past days. Maybe they're not exactly similiar (H2 and H7 ones), but I wanted to point out Barbarian theme is not always about drums and warhorns
Speaking of music, I concur, H4 music was probably the height of the franchises music (though H2 one was also really strong, Sorceress theme oh nom nom nom).
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted September 12, 2016 10:43 PM |
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Edited by AnkVaati at 22:47, 12 Sep 2016.
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My biggest problem with the visuals is the bombastic style of Olivier Ledroit as well as the tendency to copy-past stuff from other well-known games and franchises such as WoW and Warhammer. I really liked the art style of Heroes III as it felt like in the realm in something I would call "classic fantasy" - but still done in a very original way (Far-eastern style buildings with medieval European hints in a magical Celtic forest - gorgeous Ottoman architecture in what looks like Alp mountains). Rampart and Conflux were my absolute favourites regarding town screens, followed by Fortress, Dungeon and Tower. All created an unique environment that weren't really that reminiscent of anything, but really touched my imagination, made me want to "get into there" to experience the beauty - actually this was the reason I bought M&M 7 more than anything. Bear in mind that this was in 1999, even before Morrowind - that despite also providing a fantastic experience and original atmosphere - nowadays feels very "dated" as graphics are concerned. For H3, the "classic fantasy"-style that made it all feel like a big living painting made it feel really timeless.
I think that what bothers me the most with Ubi's games actually - the lack of an enjoyable atmosphere - not necessarily the destruction of the old universe, the blatant plagiarizing from other games, the rushed state of each game or the stupid design decisions. All of these contribute to the aforementioned though.
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted September 13, 2016 11:44 AM |
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AnkVaati said:
I think that what bothers me the most with Ubi's games actually - the lack of an enjoyable atmosphere
lately i m playing anno 2205, and it has a great atmosphere. i ve been fan of anno games for a long time and pre-ubi & post-ubi anno games are both feel great in terms of atmosphere & graphics.not going into detail, but everyone agrees with this.
then on the other hand, we have heroes games, which are very different if we look into them as pre-ubi/post-ubi.
im not sure whats wrong in here, but problem doesnt seem as simple as what you wrote.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 13, 2016 11:55 AM |
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Sure it is. Fan disappointment is to be expected when a series deviates from its roots.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 13, 2016 12:10 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 12:16, 13 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
Tastes are tastes but, as I said, it is objective that the campaigns are a sloppy and underdeveloped piece of work.
This is hardly objective, quite on the contrary. The H7 campaigns are some of the best in a Heroes game, and I have played all of them since H3, whether they were called Campaigns, Scenarios or Story.
Their only limiting factor are the bugs/balance (e.g. unobtainable buildings, overpowered spells, occasional double attack), but otherwise both the storytelling and the map progression is captivating (let's leave the lore discussion to the side for the moment, I am only discussing storytelling here). I especially like how they implemented the idea of Duke Ivan and his councilors telling stories around a table before his decisive campaign, that was fun to follow and participate in.
It is also remarkable that you compared H7 campaigns to games like Starcraft II or H6, as I find those 2 games to be extreme opposites in terms of campaign quality:
- The H6 campaigns started out enjoyable, only to turn into a half-baked mess towards the end, reminiscent of the fact that Black Hole did not have time/budget/intentions to finish the game properly. For me that was a major disappointment factor in the single-player part of the game, practically forcing my way through the completely bland and unimaginative final part of the campaign, only in order to get done with it.
- Starcraft II, on the other hand, was one of the best single-player gaming experiences I ever had, mostly due to the almost Hollywood-level production values of cutscenes and campaign environment (e.g. the spaceship you walk through talking to various NPCs and accessing the various maps). The levels themselves were of course also well made, but I do not think they were better or worse than the H7 maps - it is the non-map content that impressed me the most.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 13, 2016 12:46 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Momo said:
Tastes are tastes but, as I said, it is objective that the campaigns are a sloppy and underdeveloped piece of work.
This is hardly objective, quite on the contrary. The H7 campaigns are some of the best in a Heroes game,
In which way are they "best"? I mean, I don't know about you, but I prefer
a) interesting gameplay (fail)
b) no game-killing bugs (fail)
c) not being led by the hand and mindlessly guided to do what the game tells you (fail). In this case
d) enjoyable story
cannot save that much.
In my opinion only the campaigns of H2 and H4 are good (and repeatedly playable), because they are not in any way stretching the game into something it isn't. (H3 fails because of hero level-up limits which I absolutely dislike, because the limits demonstrate that the game isn't really in line with the campaigns).
In the end, the one game really well-suited for campaigns (and in fact being better suited for campaigns than for single map play) is H4, and that's it. The rest messes things up, because on one hand "we need campaigns" because campaigns is what gets the review ratings, but on the other in the Ubi era Ubisoft and their developers don't really have had a grasp on the game and therefore no real idea how to do a campaign.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 13, 2016 01:17 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 13:24, 13 Sep 2016.
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@JollyJoker: I agree that the H4 campaigns were a blast and much more memorable than e.g. the H5 ones which I hardly even remember any more (yay boring and predictable Biara/Isabel story).
I do not agree with the rest of your post however. Except for the bugs/balance part, there were enough side quests and exploring involved in the H7 campaigns - it did not feel as if I was led "by hand". And please note that I did not write that H7 had the best campaigns, only among the best for a Heroes game. For my personal tastes, H4 is also up there along with a few others (H5 Agrael/Raelag, H6 Kiril/Sarah - but I liked those mostly due to the characters, not the maps).
PS: I would kill to have the Belketh and Sarah models from H6 back in H7. They practically removed one of the very few features from H6 that I liked, most heroes have generic models now :/
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 13, 2016 02:06 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
H3 fails because of hero level-up limits which I absolutely dislike, because the limits demonstrate that the game isn't really in line with the campaigns
It's funny that you criticize H3 for having an artificial level limit in campaign maps, while you overlook the fact that H4 featured this in its campaigns as well.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 13, 2016 02:30 PM |
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I can't remember reaching any. 
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 13, 2016 02:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
In my opinion only the campaigns of H2 and H4 are good (and repeatedly playable), because they are not in any way stretching the game into something it isn't. (H3 fails because of hero level-up limits which I absolutely dislike, because the limits demonstrate that the game isn't really in line with the campaigns).
I agree with you on the level caps being a terrible, inelegant way to control the balance,
but I am curious, can you think of any cleaner way to handle this that is not a deal breaker, on condition that you must use same balance and mechanics in campaign and skirmish, campaign maps should still generally resemble skirmish maps within reason, and that you must carry over at least one hero in 3-5 scenarios e.g. Emilia lol
how do you stop it from being a mindless cakewalk, without resetting the main character to level 1 every map or nerfing heroes across the board lol
IIRC level limits like that were also seen in campaigns of Warcraft, Disciples and many others etc lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 13, 2016 03:21 PM |
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One problem - or reason for level caps - is the fact that when you make a campaign you want to know how strong the main hero is. If you play without a level cap you really have to tightly control experience gain.
In any case I see a couple of options:
You may make campaigns with multiple heroes; this may involve enforcing battling on two different fronts (a map like that may state in the beginning that "Merlin must take his mages and genies and go West to search for the Island of the Sirens, while Arthur will have to take his Knights and Archers Northeast in search of Excalibur and a wife".
Since this involves permanent checks whether players "obey" and really play two heroes, this may be a bit cumbersome. I would simply bar the way with gates that only the hero in question can pass.
This is no real solution of the problem, though, but just a trick - you basicall play different maps that look like one.
I always thought that, for H3 and H5 at least, I'd make it so that Heroes can get additional skills, in H3 12 instead of 8, and in H5 8 instead of 6. In addition I would use a slightly different XP curve in campaigns, that would be a little more steep in the beginning and much less steep in the end, so that it would be a little more difficult to gain levels early on, but easier to get them later.
I also toyed with the idea to have special (overpowered) campaign skills/abilities, that would come into play after filling up the usual lot. (So in H5, after filling your 6th skill slot completely, two new ones would open, plus you would get access to the special OP campaign skill/abilities - which of course would be connected with the special situation for that hero(es) in that campaign.
Example: Artefact knowledge might be a nice campaign skill with the effect of making artefacts stronger an/or enhancing their effects or giving them new ones.
I even had the crazy idea to let heroes lose levels/XP, as a price for gaining something dearly needed. You know, like in the Little Mermaid, just a small sacrifice, but obviously you can pull that only once or twice, but not all the time.
Small PS: I played Disciples quite extensively (I mean D1 and D2), and the maps were well done. While your units and heroes cannot pass a certain stage, and you cannot research spells above a certain level, generally you are finished with the map when you could. The reason is of course that maps in Disciples have to be a lot tighter constructed because there is only so much you can beat with your army composition.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 13, 2016 03:35 PM |
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Level caps are annoying but they never felt so terrible as to condemn a game's campaigns. I got used to it I guess.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
