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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 04:38 PM |
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Skeggy said:
3d is interesting because creatures and effects can be observed in a more detailed way
I disagree completely. You'll want to see the whole battlefield, and you don't want to zoom in/out the whole time. That would be fun, if there was one battle in each game (but then it was a lot of effort for nothing), but when you see the whole battlefield the detail isn't that high.
I'm not interested in "effects" (which are gimmicks), and I would gladly play with icons instead of 3d models, if we got a couple more "factions" and a good AI.
Quote:
and when combined with ATB bar, ATB changing effects and ATB icons, player can enjoy completely new level of immersion that enables more accurate choice of adequate response.
I disagree with that as well. The more difference there is between initiatives, the more important and decisive it and all changes of it are. Also, the bar made it impossible to see the effect of initiative-changing actions, and "guessing" doesn't help much when you need to know, whether a unit will end up acting before or after another one, because that would seem to be quite important. It also means, that Heroes must have their own initiative, and there is NO reason whatsoever, except balance, that morale, luck and initiative changing spells shouldn't work on heroes as well in that case; it didn't, and that was another inconsistency of the system.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted July 06, 2018 04:49 PM |
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I agree with JJ.
3D's magic works for a couple of times only. You are not really going to enjoy zooming in and watching whatever action for the umpteenth time, unable to skip or to see it in a more objective way. There is a way of elegantly representing things on 2D or more simpler ways, more importantly, there should have options of skipping or disabling unecessary eye-candy stuff; also would favor not having too much flourishing instead of added content, factions, proper AI, etc.
And don't get me wrong. I love game artwork, but that all depends on genre when it comes to admiring details. On RPGs, we care about some cosmetics of new armor, new weapon, because you play with those characters all the time. But in games such as Heroes in which the creatures do not change at all, visuals get tiring and too much details become pointless. The design must be 'cool' overall, but it doesn't have to be overdone like a peacock-on-a-golden-palace-like.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 06, 2018 05:00 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 17:00, 06 Jul 2018.
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Stevie said:
For some reason, I'm really not asking myself any questions about the future of Heroes. I feel no need to concern myself with any of that right now, especially seeing how little there is to anticipate and be excited for.
Yet here you are. That means you do feel concerned, even if only a small bit. Like we all.
In my case, I'm more interested in what alternatives we have, not in "what will Ubi" do...
Skeggy said:
3d is interesting because creatures and effects can be observed in a more detailed way
I also disagree. One of my dreams is to see a full 2D or 2.5D Heroes-like game, but with enhanced graphics (like in Ori and the Blind Forest for instance). 2D graphics are clearer and fit into TBS games nicely.
Skeggy said:
and when combined with ATB bar, ATB changing effects and ATB icons, player can enjoy completely new level of immersion that enables more accurate choice of adequate response.
I disagree. ATB bar is what has made me like Heroes 5 less. It always bothered me. I hate all systems that "mess" with the order of initiative. I like to build tactics around a simple order of things. Just remembering all the fights with Hell Steeds dashing around the battlefield (and AI exploiting this with Morale bonuses) sends a shiver down my spine.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 06, 2018 05:31 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:36, 06 Jul 2018.
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Elvin said:
H5 system was great but nobody should ever have to memorize skill trees, much less have to look up a skillwheel. [...]
To be honest the only time I felt the need knowing everything by heart was mandatory was when you introduced me to dueling. But dueling is already something else, I mean you skip 90% of the game and jump straight to one big battle, with starting point between players being as equal as it can be. When playing the adventure map what you pick goes with your game progression whereas you want to optimize the most you can in dueling to take advantage. Not saying dueling isn't exciting, but the real experience to me is the "schedule your night" long game starting from day 1 and for playing those I don't think you need to look up the manual while playing (I never did), just think and plan according to what the game offers you. 
That said all your suggestions sound solid to me but it's not like being a Ubi VIP changes anything. 
blob2 said:
One of my dreams is to see a full 2D or 2.5D Heroes-like game, but with enhanced graphics (like in Ori and the Blind Forest for instance). 2D graphics are clearer and fit into TBS games nicely.
Ah, if only more people would realize how amazing a modern Heroes game in 2D would look like... But I feel it is mandatory to have original NWC artists do it, they are very talented and IMO the brand suffered a lot from losing them.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 06:16 PM |
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Fixed cam option for tactical display can adequately imitate 2d representation.
Tactical screen could be complete, without ATB bar icons interference.
ATB bar icons could be placed above complete tactical screen and other controls below complete tactical screen.
Changes in initiative could be defined only as high level abilities, something like H5 encourage perk or H6 rush perk.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 06, 2018 07:09 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You'll want to see the whole battlefield, and you don't want to zoom in/out the whole time.
What, wait? Is this a paramount point for you in Heroes games?
I can't say I agree with you here, to be honest. Again I look at AoW 3, which did it a lot better than H4, H5, H6 and H7. It was 3D, but by allowing free camera movement (instead of just the semi top-down look on a chess-like battlefield), you could position it in such a way to give you the best vantage point. Do you really need to see the whole battlefield at a single glance, when a few times your unit's movement doesn't exceed the stuff you already see at once?
Personally, I feel that extending the battlefield to a larger scope might spice up the battles and allow for much more tactics.
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athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 07:18 PM |
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As this discussion shows, Heroes fans have too much invested in too many details about the game. One man's wine is another man's poison, and there's no real middle ground. That's as big of a problem for fan reception as making sure everything fits and works properly.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 07:25 PM |
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AoW3 BF is a represantation of SEVEN map hexes and up to 42 units without any summons (which exist in the game as well).
Most of the time you only use a very small part of that BF, and you don't need to zoom or move anything, and that's how it should be.
In heroes 5 you have a small grid with 14 units (plus possible summons), and it should be possible to view the whole BF. That's only fair, because there are units that can cross the whole BF.
And I actually get a fit when I see that the 16:9 resolution isn't used for BF representation (H3 did 17:11, if I'm not wrong, and at a time when screeen res was 4:3 or 16:12), because you have to overreprenet the heroes standing at the BF sides.
I don't play any HoMM game because the creature models look so cute from near distance.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 06, 2018 07:57 PM |
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Galaad said:
To be honest the only time I felt the need knowing everything by heart was mandatory was when you introduced me to dueling. But dueling is already something else, I mean you skip 90% of the game and jump straight to one big battle, with starting point between players being as equal as it can be. When playing the adventure map what you pick goes with your game progression whereas you want to optimize the most you can in dueling to take advantage.
For me it was the opposite, I felt more pressured to know the skillwheel in toh full games. Until I realized that all you need to creep is logistics and warmachines(or enlightenment and a school) while ignoring everything else It was not hard to learn the standard picks like power of speed/endurance, flaming arrows, cold death, swift mind, stormwind etc. But not knowing how each class gets retribution, warlock's luck or empathy(each too good to miss) could seriously screw up your build. Or if you missed a racial perk that unlocks the good stuff. Or if you got one that opened up unwanted skills.
But that's the thing, in a real game you learn the stuff that works and ignore the rest unless you're in an experimental mood. So when abilities are rebalanced and the irredeemably bad ones are removed, you have to re-evaluate what you know. More to think about.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 08:25 PM |
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athos said:
As this discussion shows, Heroes fans have too much invested in too many details about the game. One man's wine is another man's poison, and there's no real middle ground. That's as big of a problem for fan reception as making sure everything fits and works properly.
It's not too much and it's not too many details.
It’s not even the question of cultural heritage, because games back then were properly designed, and action window was only the action window, all controls were somewhere else, below, above, left, right …
Basically, it’s the question of focus. When action window is whole and properly positioned you can focus more easily, relax more easily, immerse in game surroundings more easily, explore special game features more easily, apply special tactics more easily, explore facets of the story and decide what is next step. That is called having a dignity while playing a game even though game is hard to beat. It means work and enjoyment at the same time. It’s a good thing when story has a meaning.
So, again, it's NOT “too much invested in too many details”. It’s just people are afraid in these days to understand the difference between game and work. I guess that's what being human really means, total invasion of private space whether by banners or unreasonably and unnecessary infestation of story window.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 06, 2018 08:37 PM |
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Skeggy said:
It’s just people are afraid in these days to understand the difference between game and work.
Nope, after I work 8 hours and my brain smokes out and I need relaxing, I want a game which loads in seconds, no AI excessive time, no fricking complex synergies or other meta-gobbledygook to memorize, just have a good time. No afraid.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 09:04 PM |
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And I don't have a problem to admit that I agree completely with you, and especially with a view on Heroes, because whatever have been touted as magic formula here recently, the only magic formula I see with Heroes is the ease of play. Easy gaming with as much depth as you are prepared to invest into it. That's the magicand the charm.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 09:18 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:24, 06 Jul 2018.
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You can find any game relaxing when you're in your comfort zone, it doesn't even matter what game that is. I find Path of Exile relaxing and it's one of the most intense, deep and fast paced ARPG there is. Same with racing games and shooters, just as long as the gameplay is transitioning smoothly from one event to another. But when it comes to games like Heroes, that doesn't work for me, because it requires constant input, mulling over your strategy as you have to add new and rising factors to the equation. It's a strategy game and I feel it's more challenging. I don't think I ever played a strategy game to unwind, not Stellaris, Age of Wonders or anything else. But then I guess it all boils down to each individual's own perception.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 10:14 PM |
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I hate to contradict you, Stevie, but for me Heroes doesn't qualify as a strategy game.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 10:21 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 06, 2018 10:55 PM |
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It's strategy and tactics plus some RPG.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 07, 2018 09:57 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 09:58, 07 Jul 2018.
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Stevie said:
You can find any game relaxing when you're in your comfort zone, it doesn't even matter what game that is. [...] But when it comes to games like Heroes, that doesn't work for me, because it requires constant input, mulling over your strategy as you have to add new and rising factors to the equation.
Surprised to hear that. Heroes always calmed me down, excluding competitive matches. Even when something completely unexpected happened I wouldn't think about it too much since I already knew the appropriate responses plus.. turn based coziness.
Keep calm and enjoy the turn
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 07, 2018 10:41 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
It's strategy and tactics plus some RPG.
You forgot to say it's turn-based and there is a luck factor.
Also seemingly in a fantasy setting. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 07, 2018 11:42 AM |
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What I wanted to say is, that there is a much stronger element of tactics than in regular strategy games, and that element is as important as the strategical, which is comparatively light and straightforward. And since hero-building is an RPG element, well.
That's why I wouldn't call Heroes a strategy game but a hybrid.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 07, 2018 03:16 PM |
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The heroes games I played (2 and 3) can be both very simple and very complex and time consuming, depending on what you want to achieve. Chess also can be that way. But what is important to me is that you can choose.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
