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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 04, 2018 08:52 PM |
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My favourite campaigns come from Shadow of Death(most of them), Armageddon's blade(Catherine and Adrienne in particular) and most of vanilla H4(didn't particularly care for haven). The former had challenging gameplay, the latter good storytelling.
Tribes of the East had some fun campaigns but especially last Arantir mission. Blitzing through the map within a month was a blast! Or the challenge to take that crazy orc town in mission 3 with your week 1 starting army. Oh and Zehir, the final tote missions were excellent. Like the H3 missions, those felt tight and allowed for a fast pace if you could handle it. I was actually glad that they didn't give us beginner stuff, it was the second addon and they expected some fight out of us. Better yet, they left some hardcore fights optional, as a hidden achievement of sorts 
I do not actually remember much from H6 missions, my vague memory suggests they were a bit hit or miss. On the good side, you faced off against all factions and that was enjoyable. And sometimes the bosses didn't suck  But what really pissed me off was that they punished you for playing too fast, to the point of losing if you activated a script faster than intended. Sigh..
H7 managed to have some memorable missions but.. was so atrociously easy. Not to mention n00b mistakes like the starting town in the academy campaign start with a random specialization. What kind of dev makes you restart multiple times in a game that has a loading time of 6-12 minutes? Or keep the AI from even interfering with you because it is embarrassingly bad? Or make you restart missions because of bugged script triggers? Since H5 we know that too many scripts are bad and make people replay missions again and again so why? Or make you play 4 heroes per turn in a final mission overcrowded with tough neutrals.. Still, I had a good time with some campaigns and kudos to them for that at least.
BUT even so they will never come close to the ones I mentioned first, simply because they were too easy. Yes they helped you get a feel of the faction(unlike some from H5..) but they did little to challenge you. Most didn't even try. I expect strategy and tactics in a campaign, everything else is optional. But certainly, I do like it when new features or units or class options are introduced as part of the campaign. Otherwise we'd just play a regular game and there would be little difference.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 09:12 PM |
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I found the H2 campaigns amazing. No idea how often I've played them. Half a dozen times each, probably.
H3 camapigns bored the hell out of me. You couldn't set the diff in vanilla, and they wore boring. I HATED carryover heroes, because you'd stop developing your hero before finishing the map which I thought was bad design.
Things got better with SoD, but campaigns were not what I liked of H3.
Elvin forgot the Heroes Chronicles, which I still didn't play completely.
H4 campaigns were awesome. Different ballgame. Great stories. H4 was made to play these campaigns - 100 possible level-ups prove that.
H5 campaigns were utter crap, especially Inferno. H6 and H7 got ever crappier. I positively hate the "objective" nonsense. Go to A; go to B; find C; defeat D. What are you? A puppet? I hate that "new style" in general, it's a disease not Heroes-specific.
Carryover heroes suck with all Heroes games except H4. I guess you can't have everything.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 10:32 PM |
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I played campaigns on and off, it was never a primary goal. Either skirmish, custom maps or multiplayer. It was replayability that mattered more than anything, something which campaigns never provided for me. There are only a handful of games that I played for their campaigns and Heroes is not one of them.
Which brings me to this point: Can't they take a hint already and stop focusing so much on designing a game and its balance around campaigns? Just ditch Ashan and its uninspired lore, drop the unwelcome restrictions and free up space for design options. Pull another Heroes 4 if that's what it takes.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 04, 2018 10:37 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Elvin forgot the Heroes Chronicles, which I still didn't play completely.
Overall, I really liked the stories as they unfolded for Tarnum, the stuff he came across and had to do, some of it was really funny or great. However, many of its maps were of the smallest two sizes, which eventually became a bit bothersome in my opinion. They tried to utilize just about every tile on those maps, which hampered the aesthetic look and feel.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 11:03 PM |
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I think that with the exception of H4 no Heroes game has been made for hero carryover, mechanically. It's about one map. Ok, 2 smal maps work as well, but that's silly.
H2 main game made it so that you are basically king and play generals in different regions. As in H1, campaigns are mainly a loosely combined order of maps not connected by the same hero.
Changing that in H3 was (imo) a mistale because the game isn't made for hero carryover (you cannot have all); that's H4, and they made fantastic use of it. There are a lot of great campaigns in H4.
Heretically spoken, Ubi would have been better off to go with H4, when you consider their obsession with campaigns. Of course it is understandable; mainstream game reviewers tend to base their judgement on campaigns (which makes weird sense, because it's like a demo-mode).
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted July 04, 2018 11:11 PM |
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I liked some campaigns on H2 and H4. H3 was never that much of a hooking thing, but also loved Skirmishing maps. On a holistic view, I do think that the game design and mechanics should consider both situations very carefully and go about that.
Oh, and the Multiplayer, for those who like this feature. I think the game should have a special balanced mode for Multiplayer purposes, because, and that's only my own feeling and opinion about the game, the game started being too generic and lose its own 'balance' by trying to balance itself for multiplayer purposes, as in H3. I liked the unbalanced vibe of H2, which H4 sort of had in the line ups, not mandatory upgrades (they made it felt so filler in H3 and H5, specially) and more peculiar factions.
Anyway, chariots, chariots.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 11:39 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
And there I thought Ashan and its factions were for the trashcan...
In Ashan one faction represent only one class.
I suppose I should try to define more clearly what question you wanted to ask and then answer on that question?
Well, ok, I think you were trying to say something like this “nevermind all the interesting things about example, all the possible class configurations etc... nevermind all that, all what is really important about given example is that it is based on HOMM 5”.
Well, it doesn’t have to be based on HOMM 5. It could be completely new game that will have all the noted elements and will explore inner configurations of the factions. That’s really what has been missing all this time. A reason for some faction to have all classes that it has, combination of meta classes combined with class skills and faction skills and intriguing story that connects all that. Perhaps some factions could have two classes, some four…
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 05, 2018 07:09 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 07:19, 05 Jul 2018.
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H2 campaigns were enjoyable because the game itself was fast paced and addictive, also because the bonuses carried over. But they were all standalone and I rather prefer a hero that carries over. I remember having a blast in the final mission, it was properly epic.
Chronicles were pretty alright though at least half of them were too easy? My favourites by far were clash of the dragons and the sword of frost, followed by conquest of the underworld. I enjoyed the stories but those also had good gameplay, clash especially.
Skeggy said:
In Ashan one faction represent only one class.
That’s really what has been missing all this time. A reason for some faction to have all classes that it has, combination of meta classes combined with class skills and faction skills and intriguing story that connects all that. Perhaps some factions could have two classes, some four…
Only H5 had that limitation.
Eh, why waste precious story time to cover class configurations and lore? We have the glorious Ashan Compedium™ for that. In all seriousness though, some word on the faction's units, beliefs and practices are good to have. But detailing hero class origins, I cannot bring myself to care.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 09:19 AM |
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Elvin said:
Eh, why waste precious story time to cover class configurations and lore? We have the glorious Ashan Compedium™ for that. In all seriousness though, some word on the faction's units, beliefs and practices are good to have. But detailing hero class origins, I cannot bring myself to care.
Why limit yourself with that kind of thinking? Every hero could have its own special attacks and spells provided by class special skills, metaclass special skills, and faction special skillsets. Imagine a fight between a hero that invested heavily in class special skillset and one that invested partially in faction and metaclass skillsets. Or with the hero that invested heavily in the standard skillset. The issue of standard magic spells and development versus non-standard comes to light. Now imagine all that immersed in campaign surroundings, or what could good mapmaker do with all that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 09:58 AM |
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Unnecessarily complex.
There is a fine line between allowing for innate creature abilities to make a difference and heroes one way or another empowering the creatures they lead.
In any case the combined power has to be limited.
That is one of the problems the game has developed over time. Too much clutter. It's fine when creatures have abilities, and it's fine when heroes acquire fancy skills, but the end result shouldn't be that creatures are completely losing their meaning and character under a sheet of effects, abilities and conditions.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 10:16 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:18, 05 Jul 2018.
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I think what Skeggy argues for is an increase in viable builds for a hero, not in a game-breaking way that outshines the importance of creatures, but in a way that enhances the game with more diversity. Heroes 3 had this "correct" approach to it, picking a certain set of skills while avoiding others as much as possible, aiming for certain spells and mass version of them and so on. It sucks for replayability and it becomes boring when you can't have fun toying and theorycrafting a build because it's vastly inferior to others.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 05, 2018 10:25 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 10:26, 05 Jul 2018.
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Sure but what does the campaign have to do with any of that? Other than support specific builds that are harder to pull off but then why would they not be more viable in the first place. And if the campaign has a unique gameplay why wouldn't it also be part of the normal game?
H5 already gave you the option to spread your skills or specialize, even more so in H5.5 so that's nothing new.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 10:38 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:45, 05 Jul 2018.
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How many times have you seen a Heroes 5 build where one hero fields a magic army and casts Armageddon every turn? Not once for me if it weren't for duels. That's the gimmicky stuff that I'm talking about, something that when you see it reignites that excitement for the game and makes you fall in love with it all over again. Sadly, I can't see that being possible within the framework of how Heroes has been thus far. Everything feels like going through the motions, do the same best build every game and win.
The game in general has become very linear. Take a look at town and army management. You have a certain path of building and recruiting, there's this income and at the start of the week you recruit everything. Where's the meaningful player input in all of that? None, you're just doing what you're given to do without a deeper reason to it than "well, it's all I can do, so I'm doing it".
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 10:42 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Unnecessarily complex.
There is a fine line between allowing for innate creature abilities to make a difference and heroes one way or another empowering the creatures they lead.
In any case the combined power has to be limited.
That is one of the problems the game has developed over time. Too much clutter. It's fine when creatures have abilities, and it's fine when heroes acquire fancy skills, but the end result shouldn't be that creatures are completely losing their meaning and character under a sheet of effects, abilities and conditions.
Four distinct paths with their own spells and attacks available to all heroes to follow and mix as they wish.
Creatures abilities would depend on the chosen path. Creatures would have their standard set of abilities and would receive special abilities in respect of chosen paths. Abilities would grow stronger in correspondence with the strength of the paths. Standard set of abilities would also grow stronger if hero decides to develop standard skillset.
Heroes would also have their specialties that would receive special benefits depending on the path development.
This way abilities of the creatures and heroes are in direct correlation with chosen paths and there is no confusion about why some creature has certain abilities.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 05, 2018 10:43 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 10:44, 05 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
That is one of the problems the game has developed over time. Too much clutter. It's fine when creatures have abilities, and it's fine when heroes acquire fancy skills, but the end result shouldn't be that creatures are completely losing their meaning and character under a sheet of effects, abilities and conditions.
I think I mentioned this a few times already, but one of my favourite aspects of H4 was how fleshed-out each creature was. No-upgrades issue and overall aesthetics aside. Each had unique abilities that only they had (even their own ability icons), and only a few (4 at max if I remember). The game was almost perfect in this aspect, practically each lvl. 3-4 dwelling choice had it's pros and cons.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 10:59 AM |
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You can get that by separate town/faction and hero. In my opinion the H4 way should be tried: Have archetype-like heroes depending on their starting skill set, all or most being avilable for hire for all towns/factions who will develop into their actual class, depending on their career picks, and depending on that class unlocking a specific additional skillset without any "faction" traits.
Note, that even the Class "Necromancer" could be an advanced class. If you think about H5 raising undead creatures out of killed creatures, you don't need a Necromancer "faction". Necromancer can start as general "Sorcerer", playing, say, Humans, playing with the human town, but upon developing into the advanced class Necromancer would convert the human town into a Necropolis, raising all human units to their undead counterparts.
The same thing might be true for something like a Demon faction. Upon becoming a demonologist, the hero would open a portal to the demon plane, enslave the population of their town and use their bodies as vessels for demons who'd take posession of them, thereby converting the town to an Inferno town.
This would open up the possibility to have varying setups for Necro and Inferno towns, depending on what they were before, which means, a human town converted to Necropolis might result in building a few different undead creatures than, say an Elven town. Same for Inferno.
And if THAT would work, there is no reason why the OTHER advanced hero classes shouldn't influence the actual line-ups of the other towns.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 11:29 AM |
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You are describing the setup that would still have races and racial development as the primary key to the understanding and distribution of skills and abilities. That approach is LOTR lore and it doesn't provide justification for any kind of inner-class or class-class struggles. It's one class one faction approach, just a little bit more irritating than HOMM 5.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 12:10 PM |
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Well, no actually. I'd kill "factions" the Ashan way and go back to a more terrain-oriented town style H2-way. I', not interested in racial factions and internal struggles. If I was I'd go for Renaissance Italy or Chinese X dynasty or some such.
I don't like the racial stuff and also the fact that a creature is either the result of exposure to dragonblood veins (that is, mutation due to radiation exposure) or genetical experiments of some "Wizards" which you might call "biological alchemy".
These semi-rational explanative lore doesn't gain anything, because, as you know, highly enough developed technology is indistinguishable from magic - but that is true the other way round as well, which means, a "magical society" will develop in a way that eventually becomes indistinguishable from a technological one. If you can imbue items with magic, you can certainly create battery-like items that contain a certain spell that can be used several times before it has to be refreshed. Say, for water purification. Whether there is a magic spell inside the item that purifies the water, or a complex filter technology doesn't matter - the result is the same.
Which means, the further away from any superficial semblance of "reality" things are, the better it is.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 01:38 PM |
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Well, I suppose technological society is a little bit different. In a technological society, classes don't have to correspond to the actual value of the individuals in the class because class rules can be more easily imposed on big numbers. Therefore, classes of non-magic races will always have a bigger inclination for mutiny and their rulers will always have a need and hunger to have only one class so they can control the numbers more easily. That is the basic tension in non-magic users races. They need more than one class to achieve divergent specialization (to be able to win) but that raises the chance of overthrowing the current ruling installation or some other destructive predicament. And there's always a strong tendency for individualization that produces additional tensions.
That's why the combination of racial/factional with metaclasses and standard set of skills is the best approach for quantification of game dynamics.
On the other hand, magic societies can't impose class rules on big numbers without some source of great power (like some big hypnotizing crystal) and if too strong (and it has to be strong in order to submit other magic users to class rules) that source can easily paralyze whole society, so I suppose that magic societies have more classes, their classes aren't imposed from above but rather created by users themselves, from the bottom up. I suppose that their greatest problem is to organize themselves as a functioning organization to cope with various surroundings in order to preserve their ability of magic use. Because when they do organize themselves that way, they become very powerful, a new source, equal to the dragons... So they need to have many classes, strong individuals, good faction cooperation... So you see, the result is not the same without doing the necessary steps to actually reach the possible answer.
That's why the strategy games actually exist, to get as far as possible from any form of semblance or resemblance.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2018 02:27 PM |
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We seem to be talking apples and oranges.
Didn't I mention a couple of times already that I would want NEITHER factions in the H5 sense NOR faction specific hero classes in the H5 sense?
But instead Basic, Archetypical Hero classes available to all playable creature-collections, who would then DEVELOP into advanced classes.
I would like a system like in H4 where your initial two skills (that also have a number of abilities) determine your advanced class, but instead of getting only some kind of special out of it, it would unlock something like additional skills/abilities.
In Heroes 4 there are 11 BASIC Hero Classes
In the Might town you can hire all 6 Might hero classes (Knight, Barbarian, Death Knight, Thief, Lord, Archer). In the 5 other towns you can hire both basic heroes of your town plus each of the neighbors. For example, the Nature town is neighbours with Chaos and Life, which means, a Nature vtown can Hire Druid, Archer, Sorcerer, Thief, Knight and Priest.
Now. A Druid starts with Basic Nature Magic and Basic Herbalism. The Druid will stay a Druid as long as they don't gain a second skill with at least one subskill. But if he learns a new Skill, say, Scouting, and one subskill, say, Stealth, The Druid now becomes a BARD.
Now in H4, that only means, the hero gets a special, in this case "The hero has always max Luck".
However, it is entirely possible to unlock a new skill, the BARD skill, which might give luck and morale and might have a couple of interesting abilities or even spells at that.
Now this system would obviously depend on the general skill system and the number of BASIC skills. In H4 you have 9 basic skills, which gives you 9x8/2 = 36 advanced hero classes (plus 1 special case for any 3 magic skills), which is a lot.
With a Basic skill number below 6 the number of advanced classes would be too small. So you had:
6 basic skills: 15 possible advanced classes
7: 21
8: 28
9: 36
or sum(basic skills - 1)
I would probably be happy with 8 basic skills and 28 possible advanced classes.
Which also means that you could play any "town" with a variety of heroes, depending on how many different basic heroes a town might be able to hire, from 7 to 28, but which one would not be clear at start (you might have an idea what you'd want, but you'd have to start out with the corresponding basic hero class and then look whether you'd be offered the skill necessary to advance).
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
