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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 01:07 PM |
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Galaad said:
You have every right to think H7 was based on the classic formula or that there is no classic formula at all but I simply can't agree with you.
neither can i, and i've never even played h7. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 01:16 PM |
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Galaad said:
JJ, last minutes revisions do not change the core design. If anything it only makes things worst as it tries to further marry what doesn't belong together. Using H7 as an example to "prove" what made the popular games popular is "nonsense" is dishonest in my opinion. The most popular games have a common ground of gamedesign that we don't recognize in the games that failed and that's your cold fact. H3 and H5 fans not playing H7 is another one. H7 took isolated features and butchered them, all on a H6 basis. This is in my opinion why H7 failed, because not only it failed to do proper use of some classic mechanics, it also never really wanted to, since they based everything on what is considered the most anti-Heroes game of all. You have every right to think H7 was based on the classic formula or that there is no classic formula at all but I simply can't agree with you.
You can repeat your opinion another dozen times, it's still objectively and provenly wrong. And using fancy clichés and empty phrases doesn't make it a iota more true. There isn't much common ground between H1/2 and H3, for example, and where it is, it doesn't fit. H3 is very different from H2.
There is also no H6 base in H7. None whatsoever. Because Ubisoft realized that H6 had been a step into the wrong direction. That they wanted to keep free skill picking is based on the idea that skills should all be equally good and you should pick with a strategy of hero building in mind to put something powerful together, instead of hiding a couple of useful skills between a ton of useless and then letting fate decide how long you have to wait for the goodies to appear. It had absolutely nothing to with H6 and the way they did it there.
Nothing. And I can only repeat if you insist on seeing what you want to see, you don't qualify to be taken seriously.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 01:22 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
H3 is very different from H2.
But H7 is totally the same as H3 and H5. Yes, sure.
Maybe let's call it a day, we are not going to convince each other and keep reiterate our points and I don't see myself doing that for another 300 pages.
JollyJoker said:
And I can only repeat if you insist on seeing what you want to see, you don't qualify to be taken seriously.
This really doesn't help the discussion you know.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 01:24 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Galaad said:
H7's random option makes it full random.
Absolutely not, it doesn't.
You can read all about that here.
Which means, you are wrongly informed - you speak about a game of which you don't know how it works.
I hope I'll never get to know how it is to be instantly rebuked so flawlessly, with a link to a Heroes 7 article on Ubi's blog no less.
Galaad said:
JJ, last minutes revisions do not change the core design. If anything it only makes things worst as it tries to further marry what doesn't belong together.
So your counterargument to how Heroes 7's skill system came to resemble even closer that of Heroes 5 in terms of randomness (not being full random like you wrongly claimed but actually having percentages) is that it didn't belong? So what was that thing about closely following a formula again if following the Heroes 5 formula for its random skill wheel didn't belong?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 01:28 PM |
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Stevie said:
So your counterargument to how Heroes 7's skill system came to resemble even closer that of Heroes 5 in terms of randomness (not being full random like you wrongly claimed but actually having percentages) is that it didn't belong?
No, it's that it doesn't work that way. If you want to make a skill system in the vein of H3 and H5, you don't start to design a free skills pick (IMHO). Adding a random option on top, even if they try to make it closer in a hurry between patch 1.7 and 1.8, cannot work. It's harming the original feature more than anything else.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 03, 2018 01:41 PM |
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Galaad said:
JJ, last minutes revisions do not change the core design. If anything it only makes things worst as it tries to further marry what doesn't belong together. Using H7 as an example to "prove" what made the popular games popular is "nonsense" is dishonest in my opinion. The most popular games have a common ground of gamedesign that we don't recognize in the games that failed and that's your cold fact. H3 and H5 fans not playing H7 is another one. H7 took isolated features and butchered them, all on a H6 basis. This is in my opinion why H7 failed, because not only it failed to do proper use of some classic mechanics, it also never really wanted to, since they based everything on what is considered the most anti-Heroes game of all. You have every right to think H7 was based on the classic formula or that there is no classic formula at all but I simply can't agree with you.
you are clearly correct mate that is the case, it is a terrible, POS patchwork design, for sure it is amazing not only to emerge with such a dog ate my homework system but also not even correct it for over eight long months,
one will wonder if they would only listen to the VIPs (Very Important Persons) beyond the Patch 1.8 many moons after a release, where were the VIPs before that and if they were pushing an improve, why did the Ubilimb not heed them like three years sooner cheers lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 03, 2018 02:47 PM |
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It all boils down to skill and vision of what to do.
Basically, it can be summarized as having a batch of ingredients that you know were in a previous dish. You have a vague idea (or not) of how to get there and have ideas (or not) on what to add or subtract to improve the overall flavor or the fine details of the dish.
I think we can agree that H3 and its predecessors were made by pretty much home-grown chefs that happened upon a palatable meal.
Now UbiSoft, having acquired photos of that dish and a washed out recipe listing, could be considered as a restaurant owner who decided to pick someone off the streets - not once, but several times! - shoved them the photos and recipe listing and told them to recreate the dish with a budget of 10 bucks based on that material alone.
Yeah, that's not going to work unless all the stars are aligned. The only way I see it happening ever again is if they hire a Master Chef and give him significant budget to attempt to recreate and even improve upon that flavor.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 02:51 PM |
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what was the budget for homm3? i don't think it would take much of an increase of that, to make this a reality.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 03, 2018 02:59 PM |
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Well, Stevie wants a flying robot who can also reach Saturn's rings, that's expensive, ask your NASA nextdoor employee.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 03, 2018 03:02 PM |
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JJ said:
H3 is very different from H2.
It doesnt have the “fairy tale” art, but other than that... Ask yourself this, had they called it something else, how fast you would have gone “hey, this game is really like HoMM2.”
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 03:11 PM |
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artu said:
JJ said:
H3 is very different from H2.
It doesnt have the “fairy tale” art, but other than that... Ask yourself this, had they called it something else, how fast you would have gone “hey, this game is really like HoMM2.”
It's very different in some fundamental design decisions that change gameplay. (And not all are good, mind you).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 03:15 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:24, 03 Jul 2018.
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Sorry but it's pretty contradictory and ironic to say H2 is fundamentally different with H3 but at the same time say H7 is very similar to H3/5.
If you find H3 to be very different from H2, you shouldn't even recognize the last two games as part of the franchise.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 03:37 PM |
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Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
H3 is very different from H2.
But H7 is totally the same as H3 and H5. Yes, sure.
Maybe let's call it a day, we are not going to convince each other and keep reiterate our points and I don't see myself doing that for another 300 pages.
JollyJoker said:
And I can only repeat if you insist on seeing what you want to see, you don't qualify to be taken seriously.
This really doesn't help the discussion you know.
Actually, yes. From a design point of view and from the features that are in the game, H7 is much more similar to H5 (in gameplay) than H2 is similar to H3. I mean, I don't know whether you know this little heap of trash. I own that game, and therefore I know that it's basically a toned down version of HoMM 3 in space, and the review is basically right. The game is utter crap.
STILL, it virtually IS H3 in core gameplay - but it doesn't work even remotely. It's really, really bad.
A game can be very similar to a well beloved one and still be utter crap, as well as a game can be very different and still good.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 03:55 PM |
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An attempt to emulate a specific design does not mean it is the same design in the end product, otherwise it would be a replica. And a good game does not necessarily mean it is a good sequel.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 04:06 PM |
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A good game is obviously better than a bad sequel.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 04:09 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 16:12, 03 Jul 2018.
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Evidently, but I would personally prefer a good sequel. In my view it is one that is consistent with the H1-H2-H3-H5 progression.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 04:12 PM |
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Galaad said:
Sorry but it's pretty contradictory and ironic to say H2 is fundamentally different with H3 but at the same time say H7 is very similar to H3/5.
If you find H3 to be very different from H2, you shouldn't even recognize the last two games as part of the franchise.
They are all part of the franchise. Keep in mind that I have no problem with games being different from each other - on the contrary.
Your problem comes from the fact that you like both H2 and H3 and H5, so you put all 3 in the same "corner", while you put H4, H6 and H7 into a different corner, because you don't like them. I just try to tell you that it makes no sense to say "I like H2, H3 and H5, so they must have the magic formula, and I don't like H4, H6 and H7, so they don't have it and are fundamentally different."
It's a bit more complicated than that. Actually a lot more.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 04:13 PM |
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Galaad said:
Evidently, but I would personally prefer a good sequel. One that is consistent with the H1-H2-H3-H5 progression.
H3-H5 progression isn't consistent with H1-H2.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 04:16 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Keep in mind that I have no problem with games being different from each other - on the contrary.
Sure, you can like whatever you want.
Quote:
Your problem comes from the fact that you like both H2 and H3 and H5, so you put all 3 in the same "corner", while you put H4, H6 and H7 into a different corner, because you don't like them. I just try to tell you that it makes no sense to say "I like H2, H3 and H5, so they must have the magic formula, and I don't like H4, H6 and H7, so they don't have it and are fundamentally different." It's a bit more complicated than that. Actually a lot more.
For the record I never said I don't like H4, just that I don't come back to it as much. What I said is I see some common ground between the games that were successful that I don't see in the ones that failed. My personal taste in this argument is 100% irrelevant. You don't agree with me and I do not force you to.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 04:37 PM |
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Hmm. H4 WAS successful. H6 as well, mind you. They just had reckoned they would sell even more copies of H6 and wasted lots of money on graphics and PR, while H4 couldn't save 3do, although it sold well.
Also, I think that H6 is a better game than H7, even though H7 as a lot more common ground then H6.
But anyway, fair enough.
The thing is that Stevie, me and obviously a couple more don't believe that "common ground" will produce a good game without an angle that will shed a different light on the common ground. After H7 the franchise drits dead in the water, and I don't see anyone taking the risk and overhaul it.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
