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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 02, 2018 01:59 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 14:19, 02 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
@ verricker
Well, mate, it's nice you go to such trouble to explain to me the merits of wiki articles and metacritic ratings for 20 year old games, but it is also completely unnecessary.
Because it doesn't matter how popular a 20 year old game is or was. 20 years ago was a different time with different people, and everyone who played the game then (and maybe still does) is 20 years older now. It's not just the Heroes franchise that goes down. Disciples 3 didn't really take off. The new Master of Orion is a dud as well. Stellaris, though, is pretty successful. AoW 3 is pretty successful as well.
If there would be a Heroes 8 it's completely irrelevant what game was popular 20 years ago or is now. A new Heroes game must be a NEW heroes game, not a best of, not based on this, but not on that, it must be a game that is its own game, while at the same time keeping the brand recognition value. And it must be true in itself, not true to some way of the past.
That's what is important.
that is all fine and dandy mate, I would simply avoid to potentially mislead with an earnest use of Wikipedia to cite Metacritic as if it proves any point whatsoever, you would never get a realistic ranking of Heroes games through such a method cheers lol
fred79 said:
it almost sounds like you're using this conversation to talk snow about an entire nation of americans, and not just some of the dimwits that infest it(as well as every other nation)...
the reason it sounds that way, is because those "fat neckbeard yanks" in the gaming industry(including it's critics), do not all have the same criteria that you specify in the above quote. specifically, the "sending thoughts and prayers for the daily school shooting" part. you're describing two different animals, essentially. gaming neckbeards couldn't give a snow about how school shootings make people feel; because they're mainly the ones DOING the school shootings. and if not, then simply sympathizing with the shooters themselves. just so you know.
i'd like to add, also, that neckbeards are a whole lot more intelligent than you're making them out to be. they're social recluses for good reason; not just because they can be(or feel) socially inadequate. again, you're talking about two different kinds of animals.
I will not say that I have succeeded to trigger you but I actually clowned the Brits gaming press instead because they are equally bad, then I realized there are no British users to follow a joke, so I edited it to get a better clown lol
in terms of piles of crap I will reiterate that I do not interact with people who post death threats to me or others, if one will go to death threats they have basically forfeited civility for me, if we are generous to think they were capable of being civil anyway lol
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 02:32 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
IMO the main problem with heroes games is scaling. Early game the micro management is key, but mid to late game it becomes tedious. H4 tried to mitigate some of it by removing the Heroes-creature dependency all prior games had. It was not only about heroes on the battlefield, but also creatures wandering the adventure map without a hero. I liked neither. I enjoy AOW, but that game has a lot of other layers to handle this mechanic, like creatures rebelling etc. H4 brought a lot of good ideas, but the Heroes-creature link is mostly sited as the main reason people disliked the game. H5 expanded on a lot of those ideas while evolving (not removing) the creature-hero link. H6 went in the opposite direction to try to remove micro management - they removed lot of management overall. Fewer resources, universal creature pool... It was a stated goal to make the game more RTS like, and that was not received well either. By that same logic they also took away a lot of randomness, which also is a key part of a fun Heroes game. H7 is only a shallow attempt at a Heroes game. The rethoric about a best-of game had nothing to do with the actual game they made. That does not mean that basing a new game on what worked in previous game is a bad idea. There are plenty of examples of the contraty.
I think what a lot of fans want is a game with the art direction and atmosphere from H3 (2D/3D aside) and skill system from H5 - as a starting point. Then see how you can improve upon the biggest flaws, and what new features can be added. Most likely you will have to redesign large parts of the game, but I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
Yep, that's the way to go with a new Heroes game. I'll add two points that are very important for me:
1) AI --- H3 is a great game because the AI is OK. These days I play AOW 3, though AI is not as good as the one of H3, but still I enjoy the game. So, the next Heroes game should have a good AI with fast turns. They should hire Quantomas, a department working only on AI is a must for a serious company...that's something I would invest in 
2) Early and late game balance:
-- the same "initial conditions" for all the players: the same resources for a given radius around the castle (say, the first week should be uniform for all the players). The first level magic guild should give the same spells for all the players.
-- I would like that important spells like door dimension, resurrection, etc. to be available only to high level heroes so that they can be used only later in the game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 02:46 PM |
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imid said:
The first level magic guild should give the same spells for all the players.
This will suppress the joy getting a stronger spell from the start or the challenge to beat an opponent starting with an advantage. To me the "unfair" parts of this game contributes to its fun.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 02:48 PM |
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verriker said:
I will not say that I have succeeded to trigger you
good, and you shouldn't. triggering is for sjw's, and is more passive-aggressive than anything else. i'm not that kind of guy. that said, i never mentioned anything even resembling a death threat, so i don't know where the following is coming from:
verriker said:
in terms of piles of crap I will reiterate that I do not interact with people who post death threats to me or others, if one will go to death threats they have basically forfeited civility for me, if we are generous to think they were capable of being civil anyway
maybe, you understand me more intimately, and that knowledge you have precedes me? regardless, i wouldn't kill anyone over something said regarding americans(of which i'm one) OR neckbeards(of which i could possibly be labeled; considering my lifestyle, mostly); you'd have to be more personal than that for me to even consider it. 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 02, 2018 02:49 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I am not against a new concept but if you consider chaining was bad then I don't think you will come with a good replacement idea. The good idea will come when you acknowledge what chaining was for and why it had such great approval rate and now want something better.
I'd say that H5 got it better, with their caravans. Sure, the implementation wasn't the greatest, but as a concept it's worthwhile. Something that can be expanded upon for a new game. It provides a strategical consideration that can be disrupted (and that counts both ways!), since caravans take multiple days, rather than the chaining which happens all within the player's turn.
Galaad said:
Comparing it with MMOs grind is unfair, MMO grind is performing a repetitive task that could be done by an automated script instead while chaining requires thinking and is very situational.
I think you don't fully understand what I am getting at. For a chain, in reality, only the end of the chain matters. The beginning of the chain gets established and doesn't / shouldn't change much once it's there, provided you can sidestep disruptions due to unforseen incursions into your territory. After that, it's a one-trick pony, where you try to maximize the "reach" of the reinforcements at the smallest possible effort. Basically, after you set up your chain, it becomes something that a script could do, too. That's what I was talking about. And in concept, it's no different from having to visit Mills and Windmills once every week to collect their resources. Boring and tedious, if you ask me.
As a mechanic, using Heroes as simple transfer nodes, seems ... awkward. An unintended consequence of lacking a proper, more interesting and less boring solution to ferrying troops across the map. There are better solutions to this, something they only attempted to address in H5 (and maybe in H4, by allowing armies to move without a Hero).
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 03:03 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:12, 02 Jul 2018.
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Caravans are not exactly like hero chaining. I used that feature very little but IIRC with caravans you send troops from one town to another. Hero chaining is to access any place on the map, and depending on what opponents do you eventually need to readjust or change plans. I am not even that good at it but I doubt it's something an automated script could do, there is too many variables coming from other players. I disagree with reducing it to weekly mills visits -which h5.5 addressed nicely imo, pay a fee not to come back.
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 03:03 PM |
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Galaad said:
imid said:
The first level magic guild should give the same spells for all the players.
This will suppress the joy getting a stronger spell from the start or the challenge to beat an opponent starting with an advantage. To me the "unfair" parts of this game contributes to its fun.
In my opinion it should be found a good compromise for the early game (maybe for the first week only) such that no player starts from a privileged position. The decisions should be important, one week is enough to build a plan for better or worse.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 03:05 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:14, 02 Jul 2018.
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imid said:
In my opinion it should be found a good compromise for the early game (maybe for the first week only) such that no player starts from a privileged position. The decisions should be important, one week is enough to build a plan for better or worse.
Then I would make it an exclusive tournament-only feature. I want to play with the odds for my regular, as originally designed. I don't reload if I get a bad skill.
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 03:17 PM |
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Galaad said:
imid said:
In my opinion it should be found a good compromise for the early game (maybe for the first week only) such that no player starts from a privileged position. The decisions should be important, one week is enough to build a plan for better or worse.
Then I would make it an exclusive tournament-only feature. I want to play with the odds for my regular. I don't reload if I get a bad skill.
If we talk about H3, I agree with you --- when I play against AI (only HOTA), I start completely randomly (town and hero). I'm happy if AI has some advantage because, in general, I easily win the game and it is kind of boring. My point was about a new game with a really competitive AI. I guess many of us have big expectations from Quantomas this year .
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 02, 2018 03:19 PM |
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fred79 said:
good, and you shouldn't. triggering is for sjw's, and is more passive-aggressive than anything else. i'm not that kind of guy. that said, i never mentioned anything even resembling a death threat, so i don't know where the following is coming from:
that part is completely unrelated to you and your posts, I know you are a respectable person mate cheers lol
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 03:22 PM |
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@ verrybooberry: but... you quoted and were responding to me. i mean, weren't you? i'm so confused right now. 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 03:47 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:54, 02 Jul 2018.
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imid said:
If we talk about H3, I agree with you --- when I play against AI (only HOTA), I start completely randomly (town and hero). I'm happy if AI has some advantage because, in general, I easily win the game and it is kind of boring. My point was about a new game with a really competitive AI. I guess many of us have big expectations from Quantomas this year .
Even when playing with friends it's fun that not everybody starts equal, and not everybody necessarily has equal level too. It's good for replayability. If some players want to make some special rules for competition, make it tournament specific, please don't remove it from the game design. The RNG plays a strong part in entertaining me in this series. I dislike spell research and replacement of resistance skill in Hota.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 04:08 PM |
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Galaad said:
@JJ
The pace comes from the gameplay.
No. Pace has nothing to do with gameplay. You can have the same gameplay but a totally different pace. For example, when you change the XP ladder, heroes will level up faster or less fast, and that wil change the pace. How much movement heroes have with regared to map size. Or how big the actual gain from a level-up is, that is, how much difference it makes. That is game pace. You could simply double the number of map objects and half the experience gain, for example. Net effect would be, double the number of battles each turn as the only change. This wouldn't change the gameplay at all, but change pace. Turns would last longer und you had double as many battles for the same effect. Same gameplay different pace.
Quote:
And there is a formula.
Then name it.
Quote:
I disagree about H2 or H3 not being complex games, they are easy to get into but hard to master.
Complex = bad. Depth = good. Simple, but deep is the ultimate strategy game design goal, while complex means complicated and confusing. Complex is what damage how many caster units in H5 do or how attack/defence difference is transferred into damage plus or minus in H6.
Quote:
And about UbiHD3, the main issue was not that they didn't include mods, but that they didn't even do the complete game! You can verify checking steam negative reviews, they nearly all say that.
One is independent from the other. For PC gamers the H3HD wouldn't have been interesting even when it had contained both expansions, because it would still not have included Wog/Era, and there would be compatibility problems. Some people more might have bought it for reasons of sentimentality, if price had been low enough, but actually it doesn't look THAT good, does it, so people would have gone back to the more expansive version. Which means, whether vanilla or SoD, as a PC game H3HD is wasted.
However, for the mobile market the game was interesting enough (which is the point), because there is quite a market and this kind of game is in demand. And everyone with an interest in playing that on their mobile would OF COURSE complain about "vanilla only", because they would have liked the complete game for their mobile instead only half of it, but I still expect that they sold the game quite well.
What I wanted to say with that is, that H3, for today's standard (and H1 and 2 even more so) and each game like that would be a candidate for a MOBILE platform.
Like Clash of Heroes. Great game, but NOW, it would be a great MOBILE game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 04:41 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 16:49, 02 Jul 2018.
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Ah ok, I misunderstood what you meant with pacing. Still pacing alone is not what makes a game great -gameplay has to be good too, I mean to start with. And I don't need to name a formula for it to exist, I told you repeatedly look what the popular games have in common and how some evolutions were done. You'd be surprised to know a lot of players simply play pure SoD, all h3 fan I know IRL didn't know about all the mods this game has. At best they heard of 3.58f ten years ago. I'm confident a majority would have received positively a complete edition, on whichever the platform.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 02, 2018 04:50 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 16:51, 02 Jul 2018.
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Galaad said:
Caravans are not exactly like hero chaining. I used that feature very little but IIRC with caravans you send troops from one town to another.
Basically, you could "order" a caravan within the town interface of one town from any other town the player owned and had an open path to. Caravans could be attacked en route and likewise, players could have their own Heroes interact with a caravan to add to or subtract from it. I don't fully remember what happened when a caravan was blocked from reaching the other town while en route. I do remember that if it arrived at its destination, while that town had since changed to enemy hands, the caravan would wait directly outside the town.
Basically, this is what hero chaining from H3 aimed to do. H5 just executed it differently - and in my eyes, more logically. It could stand improvement, however.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 04:54 PM |
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It's not the same thing to send troops from town to town than to cover specific points and areas of the map. I don't think caravans meant to replace hero chaining either, factually they didn't.
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 04:59 PM |
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Galaad said:
imid said:
If we talk about H3, I agree with you --- when I play against AI (only HOTA), I start completely randomly (town and hero). I'm happy if AI has some advantage because, in general, I easily win the game and it is kind of boring. My point was about a new game with a really competitive AI. I guess many of us have big expectations from Quantomas this year .
Even when playing with friends it's fun that not everybody starts equal, and not everybody necessarily has equal level too. It's good for replayability. If some players want to make some special rules for competition, make it tournament specific, please don't remove it from the game design. The RNG plays a strong part in entertaining me in this series. I dislike spell research and replacement of resistance skill in Hota.
I understand what you're saying and I agree with the randomness but not from the beginning, neither against AI nor in multiplayer. I imagine that AI is going always to have some advantages, e.g. it can build any turn independently of resources, the lookahead, etc. If you want randomness from the beginning, I like AOW 3 system where you can start without a town, you have a builder and you can evaluate what is the best position to construct...but that's a completely different mechanics that I don't want to be implemented in a future Heroes game.
Regarding HOTA, I'm not so conservative like you. That's also related to the fact that the HOTA team is really good, they won't change anything without thinking...they replied to me that AI is properly using the new resistance skill, these guys take care of all the details. I personally expect big changes regarding some useless skills and magic in HOTA, that's the only way to keep the game alive (besides adding new towns).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 05:00 PM |
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imid said:
If you want randomness from the beginning, I like AOW 3 system
I like it too but I prefer H3 system. 
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 05:08 PM |
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Galaad said:
imid said:
If you want randomness from the beginning, I like AOW 3 system
I like it too but I prefer H3 system.
jaja, OK! Maybe for XXL maps what I'm saying is not so important and I would agree with you. What about external dwellings, do you think that their positions can break the game? For me that's one of the main annoying feature in the way is implemented in Heroes 3 and HOTA.
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athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 05:18 PM |
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Galaad said:
It's not the same thing to send troops from town to town than to cover specific points and areas of the map. I don't think caravans meant to replace hero chaining either, factually they didn't.
In H7 a caravan can be ordered to any point on the map by establishing a caravan post (something like that) at a cost of around 2,000gp. Not that folks here know stuff about H7...
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
