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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 01, 2018 11:55 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I totally disagree on the qualification of exploit. The capacity of moving armies fast from one point to another is a core element of real life warfare through all history, it is called supply.
You mention reallife, but you do realise that supply chains take time, right? In reallife, they couldn't simply transfer armies from one general to the next and move those armies across the continent in a single day.
I always considered chaining Heroes to move armies across vast distances in one turn to be borderline exploiting, myself. And you can go a lot further than just 8 Heroes, if you swap Heroes out of and into the garrison slot. Actually, the whole chaining mechanic is something that should receive a very careful look, to remove the way it eventually found its way into H3 - because let's face it, it's beyond tedious to perform.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 02, 2018 12:10 AM |
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Look, 17 years that H3 tournaments run here and there, each with his own rules, remove this, remove that, game was stripped of spells, heroes, skills, races, but never chaining. Well, there was a version "native heroes" which limited indeed chaining as you could only use one race, but it wasn't because of chaining but because some players lacked time to play a 8 heroes game.
Chaining also take time, preparing chain takes time: calculating creatures penalty movement, heroes artefacts and locations visited movement bonuses, day of the week, terrains under EACH hero, location of the enemy as a chain can be easily broken, it is a whole complex puzzle to solve. Then the movement itself takes one turn if everything is perfectly set. Proper chaining is an art.
Also you can't have a competitive TBS game without introducing micromanagement at some level. For some it will sound tedious, for others who want effort rewarded it will make a difference.
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Era II mods and utilities
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 02, 2018 12:25 AM |
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Edited by verriker at 00:30, 02 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
Why not? It's not worse than talking about "majorities" and "general reception" and all that crap without any kind of source.
It's meaningless anyway, because Galaad's opinion stands as much as mine. He has no real point, though, that's the difference, just stuff like, "real punkrock doesn't use keyboards", if you know what I means.
I do not mean any offense but copy pasting a bit of text on a badly maintained Wikipedia page which summarizes a Metacritic page is not really research any more than me sticking a finger up my nose is a study in human anatomy, it is very unscientific and unconvincing lol
first of all the video games enthusiast press is not trustworthy or serious for me in comparison to something like the film enthusiast press, as it can be extremely hyperbolic, biased, and often corrupt, consider recent games like The Last of Us All or The God of War which have received almost unanimous 10/10s from many outlets, which is IMO not a sign that they are capable of providing realistic, healthy criticism, it is more like a propaganda lol
if you look at a typical press review for a game in the Heroes series you will most likely find that on average it is ****, very shallow and does not examine the game in any meaningful depth worth a damn, and probably ranting about the story or the campaign more than the mechanics,
this is because the gaming landscape has changed since the 1990s, strategy games are no longer in vogue and many of today's game outlets are (not to be elitist) run by fat neckbeard Yanks who will spend their day playing console games, jacking off to the Marvel Movie, eating the donut or sending thoughts and prayers for the daily school shooting, therefore they do not have time to use the brain on the boring, plodding strategy game, and will treat the review as a chore lol
thus many of them have handed **** games like Heroes 6 or 7 a milquetoast 7 or 8/10 just to get it over with, collect the paycheck and go back to the console because they are uneducated in the lexicon of strategy games, reviewing very surface level aspects with very few exceptions lol
for example I challenge you to find me a number of good, in-depth press reviews which cover how bad the map editor was in Heroes 6 and 7 compared to Heroes 3 and 4, good luck on that one lol
also what you do not bear in mind is the number and the quality of the Metacritic reviews, if you will visit Metacritic you will see most of the older Heroes games are not even covered, and what you are quoting is the press reviews which is a tiny sample size of about 50 reviews at most, while user reviews of hundreds of people are rather different (H4 7.5/10 based on 275 ratings, H6 6/10 based on 609 ratings, H7 4.9/10 based on 398 ratings lol) lol
so what is the point of mentioning Metacritic or the enthusiast press if you have a clue, after all there are much better ways to measure the quality of a Heroes title such as number and average of Good Old Games user ratings (this is pretty good barometer for the whole series), number and average of Steam user ratings, SteamSpy data (good for Ubisoft games), post-mortem activity (such as number and quality of maps and mods available, or amount of discussion generated), comments from Ubisoft (check them stating Heroes III is "the most popular Heroes title of all time"),
and for sure anecdotal evidence from fans, because that actually is meaningful and is a best clue we have in the absence of a scientic study, fans have been around to play all of the games and compare them correctly, definitely more so than some rando disinterested casuals working for a bought and paid for IGN, who chug disgusting Mountain Dew and eat the McDonald's until obesity death, it is almost offensive for me if one pays much mind to them cheers lol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 02, 2018 08:31 AM |
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I love you, you cheeky elitist snow 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 09:34 AM |
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About chaining:
Let me repeat it yet again. I'm not for or against it. But using it or not makes a vast difference. Good chaining will improve your game and make you win faster and will assist your play. It can become very important and may make a difference in how maps and campaigns play.
A powerful feature like that must be documented in the rules (and nowadays explained in a tutorial), because using it makes a big difference. It should also be limited in some way, say a stack or part of a stack can switch hero at most x times per turn, or something like that.
I agree with Maurice that transporting stacks over half the map in one day is ridiculous, but having 1000 Dragons in one hex is ridiculous as well, so "reality" doesn't actually matter much.
@ verricker
Well, mate, it's nice you go to such trouble to explain to me the merits of wiki articles and metacritic ratings for 20 year old games, but it is also completely unnecessary.
Because it doesn't matter how popular a 20 year old game is or was. 20 years ago was a different time with different people, and everyone who played the game then (and maybe still does) is 20 years older now. It's not just the Heroes franchise that goes down. Disciples 3 didn't really take off. The new Master of Orion is a dud as well. Stellaris, though, is pretty successful. AoW 3 is pretty successful as well.
If there would be a Heroes 8 it's completely irrelevant what game was popular 20 years ago or is now. A new Heroes game must be a NEW heroes game, not a best of, not based on this, but not on that, it must be a game that is its own game, while at the same time keeping the brand recognition value. And it must be true in itself, not true to some way of the past.
That's what is important.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 11:01 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:11, 02 Jul 2018.
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For a slightly bigger sample, there is this poll from Russian MM website, with 13k+ voters since the last six years and ongoing. Interestingly H5 is rather badly rated here, but to be honest I would vote H3 even if I consider H5 to have superior gameplay so this doesn't surprise me so much. Other parameters such as, at the top of my head, visuals and art direction, how powerful but also how friendly the map editor is, how fast the game and AI are and campaigns matter too.
In my opinion the most reliable factor to judge a game's popularity is through its fandom's activity and productivity, and as long as it's alive it matters. It's not like it doesn't exist. We get daily work for H3 and H5 still in 2018, it's not a forgotten thing of the past. We can speculate, but there is some signs or there isn't.
JJ, everytime any argument contradicts you you label it as irrelevant. It doesn't mean it is, you are not more objective than I am. You think the classic formula is outdated and that is your opinion, I believe it could still shine and better than ever if given talented staff and budget. Maybe we're both wrong, but please be honest and not tell me H7 is the "proof" this formula doesn't work when you are more than aware yourself that the formula was nowhere close to be correctly applied.
JollyJoker said:
Mods? Well. H3 certainly needed one.
Great games get mods, others don't. Not the other way around.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 11:52 AM |
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verriker said:
fat neckbeard Yanks who will spend their day playing console games, jacking off to the Marvel Movie, eating the donut or sending thoughts and prayers for the daily school shooting, therefore they do not have time to use the brain on the boring, plodding strategy game
it almost sounds like you're using this conversation to talk snow about an entire nation of americans, and not just some of the dimwits that infest it(as well as every other nation)...
the reason it sounds that way, is because those "fat neckbeard yanks" in the gaming industry(including it's critics), do not all have the same criteria that you specify in the above quote. specifically, the "sending thoughts and prayers for the daily school shooting" part. you're describing two different animals, essentially. gaming neckbeards couldn't give a snow about how school shootings make people feel; because they're mainly the ones DOING the school shootings. and if not, then simply sympathizing with the shooters themselves. just so you know.
i'd like to add, also, that neckbeards are a whole lot more intelligent than you're making them out to be. they're social recluses for good reason; not just because they can be(or feel) socially inadequate. again, you're talking about two different kinds of animals.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 02, 2018 12:16 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Chaining also take time, preparing chain takes time: calculating creatures penalty movement, heroes artefacts and locations visited movement bonuses, day of the week, terrains under EACH hero, location of the enemy as a chain can be easily broken, it is a whole complex puzzle to solve. Then the movement itself takes one turn if everything is perfectly set. Proper chaining is an art.
Yes and it all detracts from actually playing the game, in my opinion.
I find it interesting that players are so adament about banning a spell like Town Portal which basically simplifies army gathering, while chaining is considered an art, even though in the end it does just about the same. All because it takes effort? Sounds to me like the people who applaud grinds in MMO's.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 12:21 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:26, 02 Jul 2018.
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I'm not sure why you're nitpicking an argument based on borderline racist stereotyping, fred, I thought it was clear that you should suspend any pretense of valid reasoning right there. But it's as if you're taking it seriously and trying to extract something meaningful out of it. You don't inspect a pile of crap for the hidden gem underneath, do you?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 12:34 PM |
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Stevie said:
I'm not sure why you're nitpicking an argument based on borderline racist stereotyping, fred, I thought it was clear that you should suspend any pretense of valid reasoning right there. But it's as if you're taking it seriously and trying to extract something meaningful out of it. You don't inspect a pile of crap for the hidden gem underneath, do you?
i can't believe nobody has made a meme out of witch hazel from looney tunes yet... 
hold on...
there. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 02, 2018 12:48 PM |
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Maurice said:
Yes and it all detracts from actually playing the game, in my opinion.
Emm, but it is the game. Heroes 2 worked that way, people loved it, it went into H3 and people loved it too. I also think that you overstate the usage of the chain, the fact that it is very difficult to put up makes that we use chaining only for key moments, like breaking new areas on day one of the week or attacking the main hero if he did some basic mistake and is without army. I played full single XXL maps without needing even once to chain. Also if you look from the opposite side, how would look things if chain was not available? Go back to town and walk back again with new week army? How is that going to preserve the game's tempo?
Also there are more parameters to think about, without chain the maps would be more mirrored, less good looking and creative, because basically you should keep exactly same distances between goodies areas and each player location. Chain is a tool which allows more freedom when setting templates or fans designed maps because basically you allows you to reach any area at the same time as your opponent.
Maurice said:
I find it interesting that players are so adament about banning a spell like Town Portal which basically simplifies army gathering, while chaining is considered an art, even though in the end it does just about the same. All because it takes effort? Sounds to me like the people who applaud grinds in MMO's.
You use one example from one poster which constantly whines about everything in the game, Phoenix. In my life I never see any tournament banning town portal, it is an excellent spell because it obviously avoids tedious actions.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 12:50 PM |
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There IS NO Heroes formula. Or, if there is one, no one knows how it looks like. Because, and that should be obvious, judging from the poll, not even NWC had any clue (screwing it up with H4) nor Ubisoft and their 3 dev teams.
Considering how vastly H3 differs from H2, going from the poll you'd say, they started with a game, which was surprisingly good, and since they had a truckload of ideas, they followed it up with a bigger version of the game which won them a couple of nominations and even prizes.
Then they overhauled the game and struck gold, happenstantially exceeding all expectations even though the game actually had a ton of flaws, bugs and missing features, but screwed up completely when it came to deliver an expansion causing riots and fan unrest.
After closing that chapter halfway satisfactory with a greatly improved map editor, a couple of icing features and a stable game version, they screwed up royally, by completely ignoring the then legendary "Heroes Formula", and every effort after that ominous one was greeted with derision, lacking seriously in all departments.
It doesn't matter how popular a 20 year old game is. Because that game has been made and sold. When they came up with the Heroes HD remake, it was clear that it was a CRAPPY idea, because there is this HD mod for HD - and the new version wouldn't be compatible with all the Mods there are. The fans would never be satisfied with anything inferior to Heroes 3 with 20 years of mods in addition. You cannot beat that with a new game. You simply can't.
However, it wasn't such a crappy idea at all - because, if I'm not wrong, their main target was the MOBILE market.
And here we are at the core of the problem.
The Heroes formula is, first and foremost not a specific gameplay, but a specific game PACE. Game PACE means, how long a turn takes, a battle lasts, how many turns between level-ups, hoow much time until you reach the map climax (by having unlocked all available toys (skills, spells, artifact slots and so on).
And that is what H3 managed to hit (THEN, I have to add). The right pace. However, THEN there were no mobile games. Today, the first 2 Heroes games are ideally suited as mobile games, including cartoonish outlook and all. (H3 as well, although it's less straightforward.)
And that's ok, because today's smartphones are as good as computers 20 years ago and better.
To be a COMPUTER game today, a game must be A LOT more complex, graphically and in gameplay as it was 20 years ago. A strategy HEAVYweight (otherwise it's mobile stuff or a smallish affair for 15 bucks).
And that makes it difficult. Because a computer strategy game released in 2020 for PC will be a lot more weighty, heavier, than the games that came out 20 years ago, and that is detrimental to the lightweight-but-deep feeling Heroes had. The new games, H5 included, look and feel sluggish. Forced. The old Heroes games come along like Bards, the newer ones like Crusaders with clunky armor, heavy-footed affairs.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 12:56 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Also if you look from the opposite side, how would look things if chain was not available? Go back to town and walk back again with new week army? How is that going to preserve the game's tempo?
Your opponent faces the same dilemma, so it goes both ways. Plus, Heroes 5 introduced Summon Creatures as an alternative adventure spell for that issue. And I am pretty sure that with the right implementation of features, chaining wouldn't be in any way a necessary thing to rely on. For example, if you had reserves at the ready to complement your main army with, something Maurice already suggested.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 02, 2018 12:59 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:01, 02 Jul 2018.
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Wise words JJ, but nowadays we have something like nostalgia factor. People crave for games that resemble games of old.
I'm entirely sure, that even if there's no Heroes formula, a game similar in design, with enhanced but traditional graphics would find its market.
Take Fire Emblem series for instance. It had some rough moments (Nintendo had even considered putting it down), but one wise decision (release of FE: Awakening) elevated it to one of the more popular franchises in their library. And believe me: graphics have been enhanced, they are experimenting with various features, but it's core TBS gameplay didn't change one bit and it's still captivating.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 02, 2018 01:01 PM |
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@stevie
Well my question was rather how to keep game's tempo rather than both you and opponent having to do again and again same boring actions as moving back and forth with new army, so it should not bother.
I am not against a new concept but if you consider chaining was bad then I don't think you will come with a good replacement idea. The good idea will come when you acknowledge what chaining was for and why it had such great approval rate and now want something better.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted July 02, 2018 01:01 PM |
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IMO the main problem with heroes games is scaling. Early game the micro management is key, but mid to late game it becomes tedious. H4 tried to mitigate some of it by removing the Heroes-creature dependency all prior games had. It was not only about heroes on the battlefield, but also creatures wandering the adventure map without a hero. I liked neither. I enjoy AOW, but that game has a lot of other layers to handle this mechanic, like creatures rebelling etc. H4 brought a lot of good ideas, but the Heroes-creature link is mostly sited as the main reason people disliked the game. H5 expanded on a lot of those ideas while evolving (not removing) the creature-hero link. H6 went in the opposite direction to try to remove micro management - they removed lot of management overall. Fewer resources, universal creature pool... It was a stated goal to make the game more RTS like, and that was not received well either. By that same logic they also took away a lot of randomness, which also is a key part of a fun Heroes game. H7 is only a shallow attempt at a Heroes game. The rethoric about a best-of game had nothing to do with the actual game they made. That does not mean that basing a new game on what worked in previous game is a bad idea. There are plenty of examples of the contraty.
I think what a lot of fans want is a game with the art direction and atmosphere from H3 (2D/3D aside) and skill system from H5 - as a starting point. Then see how you can improve upon the biggest flaws, and what new features can be added. Most likely you will have to redesign large parts of the game, but I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 01:11 PM |
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"Summon Creatures" spell: It is to Chaining as SMS is to smoke signals.
'nuff said 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 02, 2018 01:33 PM |
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thGryphn said:
'nuff said
You are right, good luck for sending as SMS when traveling through forests and mountains. Lightning a fire is much easier and effective.
To summon creatures, you need mana and be a specific level (and also that town has creatures available). Using chaining you can protect your entire area from any intrusion, detecting and whipping opponent scouts, thus crippling his economy and adventure map knowledge.
Summon creatures = specific heroes, local usage.
Chaining: any hero can defend any point.
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Era II mods and utilities
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 01:40 PM |
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this is one of the reasons why i like the idea of tremendously huge maps in gameplay; because chaining is nerfed a bit. i'd prefer a player playing my maps to be more absorbed in what's going on and the atmosphere, than playing it like it was a game of chess. i think playing homm3 like that hurts the immersion. i'd rather someone go into one of my maps like it's an rpg.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 01:42 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:55, 02 Jul 2018.
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Chaining is just part of planning ahead in a turn-based strategy game, I never saw anything wrong with it and actually enjoy it.
Comparing it with MMOs grind is unfair, MMO grind is performing a repetitive task that could be done by an automated script instead while chaining requires thinking and is very situational.
@JJ
The pace comes from the gameplay. And there is a formula. I disagree about H2 or H3 not being complex games, they are easy to get into but hard to master.
And about UbiHD3, the main issue was not that they didn't include mods, but that they didn't even do the complete game! You can verify checking steam negative reviews, they nearly all say that.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
