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imid
Hired Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 06:10 PM |
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athos said:
Galaad said:
It's not the same thing to send troops from town to town than to cover specific points and areas of the map. I don't think caravans meant to replace hero chaining either, factually they didn't.
In H7 a caravan can be ordered to any point on the map by establishing a caravan post (something like that) at a cost of around 2,000gp. Not that folks here know stuff about H7...
H7 is a completely broken game, why should anyone know anything about that garbage?  That's the end of heroes for ubi...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 02, 2018 06:41 PM |
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Galaad said:
It's not the same thing to send troops from town to town than to cover specific points and areas of the map.
Then use secondary Heroes to cover those points and areas  . The game isn't called HeroES of Might & Magic for nothing, you know?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 06:52 PM |
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Maurice said:
Then use secondary Heroes to cover those points and areas
Well yeah, by chaining, lol.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 02, 2018 08:25 PM |
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fred79 said:
it almost sounds like you're using this conversation to talk snow about an entire nation of americans,
Personally I am more shocked by loliker advertising Heroes HD, even if indirectly. Definitely a CoConut break.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 02, 2018 08:50 PM |
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Salmondrier said:
Personally I am more shocked by loliker advertising Heroes HD, even if indirectly. Definitely a CoConut break.
I'm just a poo boy, from a poo hole country, spare me this life from this "Heroes HD" lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 02, 2018 11:14 PM |
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Galaad said:
And I don't need to name a formula for it to exist, I told you repeatedly look what the popular games have in common and how some evolutions were done.
Right, don't think, I'll jet this pass.
For ons thing - if we take the poll you linked to, you either have one game - that has nothing in common with itself - or you have basically all - or at least H4 as 2ndbest. H3 and H4 are probably the 2 heroes games that have the least in common, though...
However, if we disregard the poll (and popular), and just look at what games have the most in common, then H7 will become part of it. And with H7 being so crappy compred with H3 and H5 you have to ask the question, when H3 and H5 are good examples for the Heroes formula, where is H7 erring from it? You should be able to point it out with something specific.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 02, 2018 11:50 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:53, 02 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
if we take the poll you linked to, you either have one game - that has nothing in common with itself - or you have basically all - or at least H4 as 2ndbest. H3 and H4 are probably the 2 heroes games that have the least in common, though...
But the poll IS a one game option. It's not a popularity poll, it's a pick one answer only poll. Which brings us back to:
Galaad said:
Interestingly H5 is rather badly rated here, but to be honest I would vote H3 even if I consider H5 to have superior gameplay so this doesn't surprise me so much. Other parameters such as, at the top of my head, visuals and art direction, how powerful but also how friendly the map editor is, how fast the game and AI are and campaigns matter too.
So yes I assume the people voting for H3 does not mean they do not like the other ones, only that H3 is their favorite all things considered. Of course I do not know more than you or anyone else, it's my own deduction.
Quote:
However, if we disregard the poll (and popular), and just look at what games have the most in common, then H7 will become part of it. And with H7 being so crappy compred with H3 and H5 you have to ask the question, when H3 and H5 are good examples for the Heroes formula, where is H7 erring from it? You should be able to point it out with something specific.
Galaad said:
The game H7 is the most similar to is H6, not H3 or H5. H7 has the core of H6 and added features from other games on top, it doesn't work that way. These two visions are not compatible with each other. H7 is a regression not an evolution.
You don't agree with me here but I did point you something specific.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 08:49 AM |
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But it doesn't have the core from H6. Heroes skill system is basically revised H5. Even with free picking on it's still not H6, because there are mage guilds and the system there is also quite similar to H5 and nothing like H6. Creatures are basically H3 with a H4 borrowed option to pick between 2 different L7. Towns are H5 style. Creature NUMBERS/GROWTH are H3/H5 style and definitely NOT H6. There is H5 like Caravans and no creature pool. Personal Hero skill wheel is H5 based. Hero action is NOTHING like H6 (where you had two hero actions), but absolutely H3. Battle is H3/H5 mix. Resources are the same as ever EXCEPT H6 (although they are differently named), and there are 7 magic schools, but that's not core but cosmetics, because, as with H5, you are basically limited to TWO (in earnest). The game doesn't even have the darn NAGA faction, which should have been a matter of course, when you think about it, but Nagas were NEVER even considered as a faction (although they could have simply reused the whole of the faction).
In short, Galaad, the game has NOTHING AT ALL that makes it similar to H6, and if you are unwilling (I cannot imagine, unable) to see that which is totally obvious, you are in my opinion not qualified to be taken serious with your opinion, because your opinion is definitely and objectively wrong.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 09:47 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 09:55, 03 Jul 2018.
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I could add to your list how the adventure map became more open and filled with iconic objects, the exact opposite of Heroes 6's realistic approach but perfectly in line with that of Heroes 3. Also the fact that they even had Terry Ray himself, the writer of Heroes 4 campaigns, put two stories in the game to appeal to fans. And I am pretty sure that you could go all the way down and find even more similarities with the older games than with Heroes 6. No intrusive DRM policy? Duels?
But that's the frightening thought and the reason for such reticence to accept the obvious, because as soon as the similarities are acknowledged, the whole idea of a formula between Heroes 3 and 5 and how it should be taken as a base to be improved upon goes right out the window. We already had that base for Heroes 7 and the game proved to be a massive failure. That's what's at stake, and that's why you won't find agreement, JJ, but I'm sure you already realize that. What I don't understand is why you insist on explaining to a blind man how it is to see.
From my perspective, it is clear that the future of Heroes is not a formula or a magic ingredient you can single out from games past as the forerunners of success. It's a lot more complicated than that. If anything, Heroes 7 stands testament that the such a layout for a new game is a recipe for disaster.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 10:19 AM |
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I'm just not prepared to let them get away with this magic formula nonsense, and that it would be child's play to put out a mega game if Ubisoft and their devs (and actually and in fact NWC at their time as well (!)) would just (have) listen(ed) to "the fans" and keep to the true and proven formula, instead of insisting to introduce heretic ideas, let the devil in, produce a schism and ruin all.
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hahakocka
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 11:48 AM |
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JJ
NWC was bad at spell system or spell SChools? i think may be the best is Heroes 4 spells system. Many useful spells are in it! And varied! IN H6-7 there are much more spells too may be in H5 as well than in H3.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 12:14 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:27, 03 Jul 2018.
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I could break it all down but I have neither the time nor the will so I'll just shortly address H7's random skill system is similar to H5's if you never understood H5's skill system. H7's random option makes it full random whereas in previous iterations what you get proposed depends on your previous choices. In that matter even H3's skill system is more advanced. The core design was for free pick, the feature introduced by H6. There is seven schools of magic, as also introduced by H6. Every core feature H7 borrowed from the previous games got butchered. No it is not "child play" to reproduce or improve what made the popular games popular, especially when you don't even understand these games features and how they work. It takes more than vaguely take features on paper and try to apply them without knowing what you are doing, mixing them here and there along H6's "vision" and hope for a good result. You even said it YOURSELF just a few pages ago:
JJ said:
It's like someone had randomly picked game elements of those games, then randomly decided to adjust/modify them - come on, let's try this, why not? -, and then went on to randomly and mechanically determine basic game values, then putting things together - and then start scratching heads because things don't fit smoothly.
And now you frenetically tell me H7 was H3/H5 REVISED? Make up your mind.
If H7 was a true mix of H3 and H7 but improved, why no H3/H5 fans play it? It makes no sense. The reality is H7 is an insult to the previous games.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 12:17 PM |
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The H4 skills and spells are pretty cool. You also cast a lot in H4. I mean, A LOT. That's nice.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 03, 2018 12:27 PM |
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Galaad said:
If H7 was a true mix of H3 and H7 but improved, why no H3/H5 fans play H7? It makes no sense. The reality is H7 is an insult to the previous games.
They don't play it cause it simply reeks of mediocrity and low production values. Just looking at the UI makes my eyes bleed. I don't remember if I've ever seen an uglier TBS game, even if it had low-budget graphics and was made by indie developers.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 12:30 PM |
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blob2 said:
They don't play it cause it simply reeks of mediocrity and low production values. Just looking at the UI makes my eyes bleed. I don't remember if I've ever seen an uglier TBS game, even if it had low-budget graphics and was made by indie developers.
What about all the players who don't really give a crap about graphics as long as the gameplay entertains them?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 12:32 PM |
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Galaad said:
H7's random option makes it full random.
Absolutely not, it doesn't.
You can read all about that here.
Which means, you are wrongly informed - you speak about a game of which you don't know how it works.
The main difference of the H5 and H7 system is the fact that in H5 you are limited to 3 abilities per skill, while in H5 there is no such limit, which means, that you can (and will) end up with fewer skills and more abilities in H7.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 03, 2018 12:42 PM |
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Galaad said:
blob2 said:
They don't play it cause it simply reeks of mediocrity and low production values. Just looking at the UI makes my eyes bleed. I don't remember if I've ever seen an uglier TBS game, even if it had low-budget graphics and was made by indie developers.
What about all the players who don't really give a crap about graphics as long as the gameplay entertains them?
That's only the first impression. It gets worse the more you play it :/ I mentioned the graphics, but it's mediocrity all over. Bugs, crashes, plot, gameplay, atmosphere etc. That's how I feel at least...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 01:04 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:05, 03 Jul 2018.
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JJ, last minutes revisions do not change the core design. If anything it only makes things worst as it tries to further marry what doesn't belong together. Using H7 as an example to "prove" what made the popular games popular is "nonsense" is dishonest in my opinion. The most popular games have a common ground of gamedesign that we don't recognize in the games that failed and that's your cold fact. H3 and H5 fans not playing H7 is another one. H7 took isolated features and butchered them, all on a H6 basis. This is in my opinion why H7 failed, because not only it failed to do proper use of some classic mechanics, it also never really wanted to, since they based everything on what is considered the most anti-Heroes game of all. You have every right to think H7 was based on the classic formula or that there is no classic formula at all but I simply can't agree with you.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 01:05 PM |
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Galaad said:
blob2 said:
They don't play it cause it simply reeks of mediocrity and low production values. Just looking at the UI makes my eyes bleed. I don't remember if I've ever seen an uglier TBS game, even if it had low-budget graphics and was made by indie developers.
What about all the players who don't really give a crap about graphics as long as the gameplay entertains them?
I am one of those gamers, and I couldn't stand to play the game over longer periods because of the atrocious UI. I told them to think more Elven grace then Wolf Duchy primitive oak furnishings, but to no avail.
Considering perspective on the adventure map and 16:9 screen ration, it also would seem it should be obvious to put all icons an UI buttons and stuff to the sides and the top of the screen - but no, they insisted on cluttering the bottom of the screen where your view on the adventure map is most detailed.
The game is indeed ugly, so much so, that it hurts the viewer.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 01:07 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The game is indeed ugly, so much so, that it hurts the viewer.
No objections here.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
