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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 04:48 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 16:53, 03 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
Hmm. H4 WAS successful. H6 as well, mind you.
Please. People bought them because the game preceding them was great. I have no reason NOT to buy the next game of a series I like do I? They weren't successful games because if they were, they would be the most played and modded games today, which is not the case. H3 and H5 are. The fandom was extremely on its guards with H7, that's not the behavior you have when the previous game was successful. We even had a developer pop in here telling us they "learnt their mistake from H6" to tease us, so...
H5 was advertised as a return to H3 after H4 and it worked, even if it also has its own issues. H7 was falsely advertised as a best-of but it didn't take long for the fans to see through the deception. We both agree H7's outcome was predictable, only not for the same reasons.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 03, 2018 05:00 PM |
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Well I see a different problem. The current developer holding the rights who's business vision (if any) is in contradiction with what fans would like to see in the first place. TBS games? Well sure, but how do you put it on mobile?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 06:41 PM |
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Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
Hmm. H4 WAS successful. H6 as well, mind you.
Please. People bought them because the game preceding them was great. I have no reason NOT to buy the next game of a series I like do I? They weren't successful games because if they were, they would be the most played and modded games today, which is not the case. H3 and H5 are. The fandom was extremely on its guards with H7, that's not the behavior you have when the previous game was successful. We even had a developer pop in here telling us they "learnt their mistake from H6" to tease us, so...
H5 was advertised as a return to H3 after H4 and it worked, even if it also has its own issues. H7 was falsely advertised as a best-of but it didn't take long for the fans to see through the deception. We both agree H7's outcome was predictable, only not for the same reasons.
There is a lot to say about that, but it goes offtopic. You may be right with a view on H4 - I certainly bought that one as a matter of course (and didn't regret the buy either) -, but nowadays you don't buy games blindly, because you don't have to.
However, a fan is in no way more entitled to anything than any other potential buyer. You cannot make a product for hardcore fans, you need to make sure that you find as many buyers as possible, and therefore the game must attract casual players and newbies.
I also think we are not so far away from each other than it may look. If you take a look at Disciples 1-3 and AoW 1-3, the difference is, that AoW 3 was sparked by one hell of an idea to make the game different, but still AoW, while D3 was sparked by, well, let's make a new D3.
That's why the results are different.
With Heroes, if you look at the whole of H5, the result, while acceptable as a resurrection of the brand, left a lot to be desired, and Ubisoft went all-in with H6, trying to make the game more MP-friendly, so-to-speak. The creature pool, the simpler town structure, less resources, the secondary heroes being 5 levels below your main, the reduced randomness, the fact that you could convert towns... On the other hand another hero action and special campaign features, basically strengthening (in theory) the MP aspect and the campaign aspect of the game (and leaving regular SP a bit on the lacking side).
I have no problem with H6, but I suspect the reason is that there is a lot in the game that I suggested (which was only done when it seemed things were lost). Which means, I'm probably biassed. On the other hand I'm probably not, because H6 is sinning against JJ's first law of Heroes and that is, all game relevant values must be easily checkable (that is, if a tooltip shows you a damage, you must be able to replicate that in your head without being a math genius). In other words, if my hero has 5 attack I should have a clear idea what that does.
On second thought, the problem I have with H6 is that it started out with 5 factions. It should have been clear that any plan to release a heroes game with 5 factions (only) would be a really BAD plan, especially if you had the intention to introduce a NEW faction. That is basically the same bad decision D3 made, releasing with THREE factions only.
However, as with H4, H6 had a couple of good ideas. Town conversion? BRILLIANT - just give it a toggle on/off in game settings! Or take the reduced resources - not a completely outlandish idea, but actually the game isn't just about the number of DIFFERENT resources, but also about the number of resources in general and the number of map objects and the consequences of when you have nothing anymore to barter with on the Market. Resulting in empty maps, endless stacks of creatures guarding a pile of crystals and so on.
Which is what H4 and H6 separates. H4 had a goal and changed all of the game ACCORDINGLY. H6 had a goal as well and didn't even realize what would have to be changed accordingly.
H7, on the other hand...
Well, Elvin will confirm that there was a somewhat lengthy design blueprint about what went wrong with H6 and how they wanted to get things to get back on track with H7, written by the lead designer, and the interesting thing is - Elvin will confirm - that the design blueprint made everyone nod their collective heads. Very reasonable. Very insightful. Very promising.
Of course, everything went south basically the first day things were discussed when they came up with their decision to go for a free pick skill system - that was basically the first bit of information released to the VIPs, and it got things quite heated right away. It got more heated when I told them, they would have to solve the "magic conundrum" as the central problem of the game, making sure a magic hero build would be valid, especially considering 7 magic schools, but they saw that quite differently, telling us that bridge would be crossed if they stood there. Yeah, well. RIP, H7.
I will add, that H7 did NOT fail because of that - there are a lot more and probably even more serious than that -, but what I maintain is, that H7 started out as a game "based on common ground". The problem with H7 is, that "the common ground" isn't flawless, and that means, there was no SAFE common ground to fall back to.
Which is what I maintain and you deny. 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 03, 2018 07:39 PM |
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That blueprint analysis was pretty solid. I do not remember where things diverged but reading it felt like we were actually heading somewhere good. Because the author had done this homework and had an idea of what could be kept, discarded or improved and more importantly why. It's been too long to remember specifics sadly.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 07:57 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:04, 03 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
Well, Elvin will confirm that there was a somewhat lengthy design blueprint about what went wrong with H6 and how they wanted to get things to get back on track with H7, written by the lead designer, and the interesting thing is - Elvin will confirm - that the design blueprint made everyone nod their collective heads. Very reasonable. Very insightful. Very promising.
Sounds a lot like they coined down the fabled "Heroes formula" to unite it all into a best-of and garnered your unanimous acceptance. And you believed them, JJ, you believed them! Then again, many others swallowed that same promise and were hopeful, myself included. But it was clear after a certain point (after playing the Alpha for me) that the game was not shaping up according to expectations. Looking back on it, I blamed the failure of the game on the inability of Ubisoft and Limbic to deliver, which I'm sure was a factor to a certain degree. But it became apparent after they had their time to fix the most glaring post-release issues that there was something exceeding that, that the mentality behind the design was wrong.
Of course, I'm sure the VIP tried their best to steer the game in the right direction just like with Heroes 6, to the extent they were allowed to and withing the framework of what was possible for the developers. Improving whatever they could at that point to make the entry more palatable if nothing else was a noble goal, and I appreciate the likes of you, Elvin, and other respectable community people who invested their own free time and effort and nerves to that end.
Alas, with one irresponsible move from a certain group of dimwits colluding to twist a dagger from behind, the VIPs were disbanded. It takes quite the next level of unethical and reckless stupidity to hit that next level of low which no death threat said in jest could ever achieve. I remember AcidDragon being quite pissed at what happened back then since he thought they had something good going on for them and it was all ruined, fairly sure it was around the time the skill wheel got revised as well.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 03, 2018 08:18 PM |
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The game was dead and finished by then. And besides there was no reason to keep a group that is not needed.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 08:36 PM |
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Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, Elvin will confirm that there was a somewhat lengthy design blueprint about what went wrong with H6 and how they wanted to get things to get back on track with H7, written by the lead designer, and the interesting thing is - Elvin will confirm - that the design blueprint made everyone nod their collective heads. Very reasonable. Very insightful. Very promising.
Sounds a lot like they coined down the fabled "Heroes formula" to unite it all into a best-of and garnered your unanimous acceptance. And you believed them, JJ, you believed them! Then again, many others swallowed that same promise and were hopeful, myself included. But it was clear after a certain point (after playing the Alpha for me) that the game was not shaping up according to expectations. Looking back on it, I blamed the failure of the game on the inability of Ubisoft and Limbic to deliver, which I'm sure was a factor to a certain degree. But it became apparent after they had their time to fix the most glaring post-release issues that there was something exceeding that, that the mentality behind the design was wrong.
Well, it was more like a real blueprint about what would be important and what they wanted to do - all very reasonably -, but it didn't take more than a few days into real development to realize, that the real question wasn't the what. but the how (and whether the how would deliver the what), and it didn't take much longer to realize that the how wouldn't suffice.
Elvin will confirm that I wasted no time telling them this time half-assed wouldn't be enough and it would be either make or break, and that everything below exceptional would equal failure.
Limbic is, if I'm not wrong, part of the development of the new Tropico game...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 03, 2018 10:53 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:54, 03 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
it didn't take more than a few days into real development to realize, that the real question wasn't the what but the how
So you do admit it wasn't the what but the how. If assigned people are not competent to do the how, no matter what you take as what is unsafe. That's not the design that is unsafe, but the people behind. If H7 had really been what it claimed to be and that it failed, only then I would concede. But that's not what happened. However I hardly see how something to which fist information you receive is free skills pick can be in harmony with the what from previous games.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 03, 2018 11:10 PM |
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No, you don't understand. The what is irrelevant. Important is that once you decided on a what to go with it, everyother what must fit (1) and the HOW must be right (2).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 04, 2018 12:00 AM |
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No I don't understand you, now you are saying design is irrelevant? Whatever dude. Like Bruk said, make me a game with NWC atmosphere and H5's gameplay as a starting point, and do it right. Then we talk and see if there is no magic formula.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 04, 2018 12:14 AM |
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it is a great irony that there were people who were very jealous to be in that group, I remember some nasty sycophants who lacked both principles and two brain cells to rub together were absolutely gagging on their own saliva to get in and are likely still gagging today, if one would consider their base nature lol
for me I am very happy that I correctly recognised this game would be **** from day one and saved many people the time and money of the scam, I would never gag for anything from erwin just to have a token role or wave a dick about because that is a matter of common sense, although I must feel sorry for all of the sincere insiders who were taken the advantage of and wasted all of their energy in an erwin clown show (until some decided they had been fooled twice and enough was enough) cheers lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 08:58 AM |
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Galaad said:
No I don't understand you, now you are saying design is irrelevant? Whatever dude. Like Bruk said, make me a game with NWC atmosphere and H5's gameplay as a starting point, and do it right. Then we talk and see if there is no magic formula.
"What" is, "Let's make a skill-system with a couple of general skills that have sub-skills". Sounds good.
The "How" is:
Version 1: H4: 9 general skills, each skill with 3 sub-skills, each of those having its own "tree" (that is, you can't just pick anything, but there is an order, so that you cannot rush to the highest level in any one of them). 5 skill levels. Heroes can pick up to 5 skills. Skills and abilities are offered semi-randomly.
Version 2: H5: 12 general skills for everyone plus 1 faction skill (1 faction has 4 different general skills). Sub-skills are individual and subtly different from faction to faction. 3 skill levels, 1 sub-skill possible or each skill level, sub-skills come simple and with prerquisites which may include sub-skills of different skills. Heroes can pick up to 6 skills. Skills and abilities are offered semi-randomly.
Version 3: H7: (have to look it up, but am not interested)
Everything has to fit with each other. A "game with NWC atmosphere and H5's gameplay as a starting point", is an impossibility, because H5's gameplay is a very refined FINISHING point. NWC atmosphere would be the "graphics overlay" mostly, so what you mean is, H5 in H3 looks. However, that is a finished game, and if you'd say, "man, H5 is great, but I wished each faction had more heroes and could use more different magic", if THAT was your design goal, you'd have to design a new game because one hero and limited magic use are more or less cornerstones of game balance in H5. You'd end up with a completely different game if you wanted that to work.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 04, 2018 10:11 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 10:16, 04 Jul 2018.
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H7 version:
Too many skills for a random system, some had to be banned depending on class. Complete lack of faction-unique abilities, all crammed in the racial.
Worse yet, certain classes have only specific magic just because.
3 basic, 2 advanced, 1 expert ability per skill, each unrelated to the other. No sense of specialization and when playing random, no option to block certain abilities from appearing. Additionally irritating because every skill has a governor ability that will keep popping up throughout the game.
Differences: Not all skills had expert or master level, unsure if that was remedied in last patches. Hope it was because other than logistics, you'd always want to pick the skills you can max. Also magic skills had one passive ability in the lowest(ie water shield against first attacks) and in the highest tier(ie fire shield). Liked those. Also, magic skill masteries were tied to tier so you never faced the risk of a wasted mastery. Would be better if those masteries were included in the magic skill though, unless there was enough spell variety to warrant different paths.
And of course.. arcane points. Helped increase your magic spell pool since it was unreasonable for a magic hero to stock up on magic skills. Not an intuitive solution, plus an expert magic skill did not even give enough points for access to its top tier spells :/
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 04, 2018 11:35 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:42, 04 Jul 2018.
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It's not because you and Ubi cannot figure it out that it's "impossible".
Elvin said:
No sense of specialization and when playing random, no option to block certain abilities from appearing. Additionally irritating because every skill has a governor ability that will keep popping up throughout the game.
Lol, I see that 1.8 patch mentioned earlier did wonders. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 01:04 PM |
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Of course you are entitled to dreams and wishful thinking, but I'm afraid the reality will stay disapponting.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 04, 2018 01:57 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:17, 04 Jul 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
Of course you are entitled to dreams and wishful thinking, but I'm afraid the reality will stay disapponting.
Insofar what reality showed us is H2 is a great sequel to H1, H3 an even greater sequel to H2, and in terms of gameplay H5 a great sequel to H3. While all these games have differences they also have a solid and recognizable common ground that is absent from the other games. Reality also showed us the games that tried these "new angles" failed and are considered the black sheeps of the series by a majority. I say dreams and wishful thinking is deviating from a formula that worked every time it was applied.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 02:24 PM |
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I absolutely agree. It is possible to get a heroes game right. It's been done before; it can be done again. You just need a competent team to do it. Of which ubi is obviously not.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 02:59 PM |
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Of course it is possible to get a Heroes game right. However, you'll need a new angle...
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 07:32 PM |
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Edited by Skeggy at 19:40, 04 Jul 2018.
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Well, you already have possible bestseller in MMH 5.5: class-distinct skill-sets of 12 skills (8 possible to choose of those 12, perhaps 10 out of 14 is better?), skills that belong only to one specific class (class skills that are not racial skills but class-specific skills and they span-out through all races as a rule), faction skills (ex-racial skills) that are optional for specific class of certain faction, usual skills, three classes per faction, five heroes per class.
What MMH 5.5 is missing is serious campaign plot that will make use of heterogeneous class system in a way that no one did that before. Think of all possibilities; prelude which explains why Haven is taking Heretics into their service, then few victories because faction is heterogeneous enough to achieve victory (because only Heretics could win against certain enemy), then possible civil war, because some classes don’t like new faction dynamics, then some heretics are expelled from Haven faction, then… There is gazillion possible micro vectors.
Perhaps many meta-classes, depending on hero development, perhaps special on/off option in settings for specific type of behavior (range retaliation or melee retaliation for range units), perhaps much stronger linkage between skillwheel and gameplay of specific unit types, much clearer standardizations of different unit types.
But what is really important and the only thing that could carry possible new heroes installation is definitely quantification of needs and struggles in inner-faction space. Factions simply cannot exist as a single class any more if they want to be on the winning side. And if franchise wants to produce and sell a good game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2018 08:03 PM |
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And there I thought Ashan and its factions were for the trashcan...
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
