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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 29, 2015 03:27 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 03:34, 29 Jan 2015.
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Of course when I say atmosphere, I consider visuals as a part of it along the other elements you rightly mentioned.
The rage generated has been translated by the creatures appearance but fundamentally what people are asking is : Skeletal + Murnau. Hopefully, as Horace said, Anger is a short madness.
I agree regarding nostalgia factor and its powerful impact, therefore shouldn’t it be more used in an approach to gain love from the fans? Necropolis is one of the most beloved factions from the long standing fan base after all. In my opinion, if one should go through the less changes, is precisely that one, the timeless, undying faction. Newcomers will always like what’s currently on the set as they are discovering, while long time fans have the highest expectations, so I don’t find your comparison that fair Sir Sandro400. 
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 03:28 AM |
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cleglaw said:
dear devs, i notice you really love game of thrones, but please dont over do it by putting symbol animals in all line ups, making missions all about family stuff with no real evil or real good in it. please also add some classical tolkien stuff too, some real evil/good characters or not-family related heroes.. please dont just make it %100. erwan is still mentioning game of thrones, even in h3hd stream, please someone hold him about this. lol.
Oh, I totally want to see the response. It will go something along this:
"Dear Cleglaw,
We will think about it.
Best regards,
Your dear devs."
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 04:20 AM |
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Galaad said:
The rage generated has been translated by the creatures appearance but fundamentally what people are asking is : Skeletal + Murnau. Hopefully, as Horace said, Anger is a short madness.
I agree regarding nostalgia factor and its powerful impact, therefore shouldn’t it be more used in an approach to gain love from the fans? Necropolis is one of the most beloved factions from the long standing fan base after all. In my opinion, if one should go through the less changes, is precisely that one, the timeless, undying faction. Newcomers will always like what’s currently on the set as they are discovering, while long time fans have the highest expectations, so I don’t find your comparison that fair Sir Sandro400.
And that's why I'm saying that rage over non-skeletal liches but lack of rage about the possibility of living creature is a paradox. Don't you think so?
I think not. It's unfair and in the end they'll just dig a hole beneath their feet. And they're already trying to please nostalgic fans with H3 HD. Trying. Huh.
Actually, Necropolis really remains that timeless, undying faction in terms of line-up and gameplay. Just compare differences between H3 and H5 (and after) factions. Fortress, Sylvan, Dungeon, Inferno, pretty everybody except Necro and Academy were shaken up.
Newcomers aren't only those who just came to the franchise since H6, but also those whose first Heroes were H5. And ofc they'll accept everything, because they haven't played H2-3, they don't have nostalgia effect. I was making that comparison to emphasize my point on nostalgia, oh gallant Galaad! 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 05:04 AM |
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If Giovanni is appearing i hope Madonn...i mean lucretia shows up too.
Still bummed they never released any of the Danse Macabre portraits full scale
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 29, 2015 08:00 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Actually, Necropolis really remains that timeless, undying faction in terms of line-up and gameplay. Just compare differences between H3 and H5 (and after) factions. Fortress, Sylvan, Dungeon, Inferno, pretty everybody except Necro and Academy were shaken up.
Thank you for mentioning Academy.
You know I remeber my reaction when H7 Academy was anounced, and most people were very pleased with it. But my first thought "Wasn't this already done?" and my second thought was "Didn't academy look like this eversince NWC moved from the Tolkien like wizards in H2 to the the more general "great magic school" approach?
If you would take any game after heroes 3 with Academy in it (even CoH) and looked at the lineup. You would see that there are 2-3 changes in the line-up the changes are usually the same.
1 - the cute basic shooter gets a different name (Halfling, Gremlin Cabir)
2 - Something replaces the gargoyle, or the same thing is replaced by the Gargoyle
3 - If there is an extra spot, put a new top tier creature,, a blue bird if possible.
My point now is that different people notice different problems. Believe me I asked people "what do you see in this lineup, it is the same as it ever was, Haven had much more variety than this!"
People notice problems, but not many see the same topics as problems.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 08:19 AM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 08:24, 29 Jan 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
1 - the cute basic shooter gets a different name (Halfling, Gremlin Cabir)
2 - Something replaces the gargoyle, or the same thing is replaced by the Gargoyle
3 - If there is an extra spot, put a new top tier creature,, a blue bird if possible.
Yeah, uh, pretty big leap with the last one consider that H7 is the ONLY game where a "blue bird" has been aligned with the magic-user faction.
I'd even say #2 is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, the Gargoyle basically replaced the Boar (after being transplanted from its rival Warlock faction), but there's no way that they were usurped by H4's Dwarf - just cut from the main lineup and made a neutral unit. If anything, I'd make #2 "multi-armed upper-tier melee creature of some variety" (Nagas in NWC, Rakshasas in Ashan).
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 29, 2015 08:41 AM |
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Kimarous said:
Yeah, uh, pretty big leap with the last one consider that H7 is the ONLY game where a "blue bird" has been aligned with the magic-user faction.
I'd even say #2 is a bit of a stretch. Yeah, the Gargoyle basically replaced the Boar (after being transplanted from its rival Warlock faction), but there's no way that they were usurped by H4's Dwarf - just cut from the main lineup and made a neutral unit. If anything, I'd make #2 "multi-armed upper-tier melee creature of some variety" (Nagas in NWC, Rakshasas in Ashan).
H4 -> 8 spots.. put in a top tier... Dragon Golem
CoH (I mentioned it on purpouse) -> 8 spots.. put in a top tier.. Pheonix (in blue color) = blue bird
H7 -> 8 spots.. put in a top tier... blue bird
Out of 5 games they were in since H3, 3 had 8 spots, ot of these 3 two times this extra spot has been taken by a blue bird.. any more problems?
Gargoyle was not only made neutral, it changed alignments of. (Order -> Death). But again. The gargoyle point also applies to CoH.
The Rakshasa/Naga you mentioned could fit into 1.. since as in that case, the function is the same.
The main point is, no other faction has this streamlined approache to its lineup, but people still don't care and complain how unimaginative necro is. Somewhat hipocritical.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 29, 2015 09:17 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 09:22, 29 Jan 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
You know I remeber my reaction when H7 Academy was anounced, and most people were very pleased with it. But my first thought "Wasn't this already done?" and my second thought was "Didn't academy look like this eversince NWC moved from the Tolkien like wizards in H2 to the the more general "great magic school" approach?
Yes, it was done in HoMM3, HoMM4, HoMM5 and now in HoMM7, but... let face it, this line-up is something classic and changing it for just having change is not a bright idea. Golem, Mage, Naga/Rakshasa and Titan become creatures which would probably make more hate, if you do not include them, then something you can push away. Just see what has happened when Unicorn was scrapped from Sylvan Elves/Nature town.
Also, HoMM2 Wizard's Town was inspired not only by LotR - Eagles (Rocs), Mages, Hobbits, Boars but also by classic movies: Wizard of Oz (Golems) and about Sindbad/Jason - Rocs and Titans. Also there was a Frog planned before it was swapped to Boar.
Dave_Jame said:
The main point is, no other faction has this streamlined approache to its lineup, but people still don't care and complain how unimaginative necro is.
I think Haven/Knight has also the same problem, even if units names are changed. Also the problem with Lich and vampires is not line-up but that we got H6's Lich and Vampires - the same desing as in previous title, without visible changes (besides colours) and crappy "excuse" about lore, while H7 is closer to H5 (skeletal liches), then to H6 (pale men with stange outfits).
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 29, 2015 09:28 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Rakshasa92 hey mate, you even composed a song for Ashan. Some psychiatrists will tell that deep inside yourself you actually like Ashan! 
Nah, it's a boring snow derived from this song. It's completely boring and unoriginal!
(How is my Rakshasa immitation? ).
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 29, 2015 09:42 AM |
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Maurice said:
(How is my Rakshasa immitation? ).
You're doing it right. 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 29, 2015 09:54 AM |
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@Avonu
My point is not that much the line-up itself, but that is my main argument, but about it's implementation.
You see Most factions can be boiled down to 2-4 core repeating creatures. But in most of them the looks and the functions of creatures change.
Let's have a look at necro. Skeletons are in every game, but sometimes they are melee, sometimes they are range. Sometimes they have a sword/Shield, in other games they have spears, bows, axes, maces etc. The fact that we had an Aristocratic vampire, Nosferatu-like vampire, Knight-like vampire or even an anime-like vampire says a lot. (This doesn't mean I approve of the model copy thing. I understand it, but i don't apprve it)
How much did the Rakshasa change? If you would take the Titans, as much as I like them, you would see how similar there looks are in most games.
This can be seen in many factions (Heck look at the centaurs how divers their looks and roles are) bur Academy somewhat looks like a contradiction to what they are. They represent the science and progress but still fail to change or innovate
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 29, 2015 10:03 AM |
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Actually if you look closer at Academy, you will see, they have changed. Just look at H5 and H7 Golems or Mages - they look different. Even Titans are different. Rakshasa - well, agree, they look nearly the same (4 swords, female and male, fur) - maybe some armour/protection would help, maybe not.
There are just some core elements, you can't really take out without harming creature "image" - helmet for Titans for example or 4 swords for Naga/Rakshasa.
I think we should wait for Stronghold and Dungeon creatures to show up, to fully know, if H7 is more just reusing old resources (Necropolis) or reusing old resources but changing them a little (Haven, Academy).
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 10:08 AM |
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Maurice said:
Sandro400 said:
Rakshasa92 hey mate, you even composed a song for Ashan. Some psychiatrists will tell that deep inside yourself you actually like Ashan!
Nah, it's a boring snow derived from this song. It's completely boring and unoriginal!
(How is my Rakshasa immitation? ).
If you can't see Ashan is boring, you are in need of a psychiatrist! ;-)
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 10:28 AM |
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To me academy has always remained the same and true to itself. I actually consider the line-ups having least change overall between iterations in how it works(even less than haven). Sure some units like half-ling, gremlin and now cabir for example are different creatures, but they are essentially the same tier 1 shooter. Getting some upgrades like the repair ability seems like natural evolution as the series progresses forward. I wouldn't honestly even want great changes made to the concept of how academy is. I greatly disliked the changes they introduced to necro moving from evil to neutral and then to spider-cult as the difference just felt too big to me. The faction should stay familiar and you should be able to recognize it from past iterations(and by this I don't mean just some units, but general feel of the faction).
I personally find it quite interesting that a lot of people have written on the blog that they love the h7 academy even though in the past they've disliked it. For me I've always considered academy my favourite faction, but in h7 I felt disappointed with it (hopefully that changes once I try it ).
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 10:54 AM |
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@TD- That'd be me. It took me 3 games to accept the fact that snow caped Tower is now a desert Academy. I didn't like it at all in H5 but somehow im now fine with h7 one. Partially because I've been playing Dragon age Inquisition with a mage so I pumped up myself for it.
I think the core line up is amazing, especially Golems and Kabirs.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 11:03 AM |
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Changes between H5 and H7 and H3 Academy are only visual mostly.
H3 lineup: Gremlin, Gargoyle, Golem, Mage, Djinn, Naga, Titan
H5 lineup: Gremlin, Gargoyle, Golem, Mage, Djinn, Rakshasha, Titan
H7 lineup: Chabir, Gargoyle, Golem, Mge, Djinn, Rakshasha, Titan/Bird
Necro lineup changes:
H3: Skeleton, Zombie, Wight, Vampire, Lich, Dread Knight, Bone Dragon
H5: Skeleton, Zombie, Ghost, Vampire, Lich, Wight, Bone Dragon
H6: Skeleton, Ghoul*, Ghost, Vampire, Lich, Lamassu, Spider Lady
H7: Skeleton, Spider, Ghost, Vampire, Lich, Lamassu, Bone Dragon/Grim Rider
*Ghoul is just another "version" of Zombie realy. Warcraft's "invention" was that he moves fast, and HoMM copied this trait. Techincaly speaking all movie zombies are realy ghouls, since they are the one eating flesh of the dead. Real Zombies come from Voodoo religion, and are more of a "slaves", or undead workers.
H7 lineup of Necro is a mix of H5 and H6 lieups. Again throughout the ages, changes are mostly visual, with Spider Lady and Lamassu being the most noticable additions. Grim Rider is a callback to H3's Dread Knight, aswell as H5's Wight.
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 11:09 AM |
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Again with this. It was already said that people care about how the units look, even if they're old units. I'm quite sure most of the people would prefer H3 Necropolis remodeled over h5 or h6, but recylcing the same design is not really the same as having same units but with different design.
That's the issue with Necropolis, not that they have vampires, liches and so on.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 29, 2015 11:15 AM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
If you can't see Ashan is boring, you are in need of a psychiatrist! ;-)
Nah, I know Ashan has its problems. It's much too much locked in the lore they've created, essentially painting themselves into a corner they can't get out of. But with regards to your way of posting, you overuse the word "boring", in my opinion and have a strong tendency to write in hyperboles . I was taking a jab at that .
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 11:16 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
*Ghoul is just another "version" of Zombie realy. Warcraft's "invention" was that he moves fast, and HoMM copied this trait. Techincaly speaking all movie zombies are realy ghouls, since they are the one eating flesh of the dead. Real Zombies come from Voodoo religion, and are more of a "slaves", or undead workers.
False. Warcraft did not invent fast Ghouls. Ghouls weren't especially in HoMM fast to begin with, only the rest of Necropolis is quite slow, which only makes it fast by comparison. And neither were they ever depicted as slow, as opposed to zombies. Ghouls are simply faster than zombies, but then most things are.
If anything, Ghouls were faster in Warhammer before Warcraft had even started using Ghouls.
But even in Arabic Myth, were Ghouls originate from, they were able to transform into hyena's. Hyena's aren't exactly slow creatures, so they could always be fast, even in ye olden days.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 29, 2015 11:34 AM |
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Not to mention that WH ghouls are alive...
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
