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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 29, 2015 08:37 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Methinks someone cast implosion on this topic 
More like Armageddon 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 08:41 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
So either we have case where your natural lifespan is certain number of years and no matter what you decide or do you cannot die before that age, or if you do something to speed up your demise it doesn't count but then how its decided if you choose to die that day or it would happen anyway? What triggers transition from Lich to Archlich is so unclear...
No offence, but your sentence is more unclear to me than the transition.
Let's have poor Moander's case.
He was poisoned as per his destiny and according to it should die in, let's say, 3 days. But he obtains a vial of Namtaru venom and drank it, cheating death. He's a Lich now. In 3 days he will become an Archlich. Simple as that.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 08:43 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
No offence, but your sentence is more unclear to me than the transition.
Let's have poor Moander's case.
He was poisoned as per his destiny and according to it should die in, let's say, 3 days. But he obtains a vial of Namtaru venom and drank it, cheating death. He's a Lich now. In 3 days he will become an Archlich. Simple as that.
Supposing the same scenario, but the difference being that he drank it knowingly, committing suicide.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 29, 2015 08:46 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 20:47, 29 Jan 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
Avirosb said:
Methinks someone cast implosion on this topic
More like Armageddon
Seriously, stop this topic right now! This discussion is completely futile. No side will be convinced by another so please, could you shut yourselves up?!  I would be grateful. 
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 29, 2015 08:47 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
No offence, but your sentence is more unclear to me than the transition.
Let's have poor Moander's case.
He was poisoned as per his destiny and according to it should die in, let's say, 3 days. But he obtains a vial of Namtaru venom and drank it, cheating death. He's a Lich now. In 3 days he will become an Archlich. Simple as that.
So every person in Ashan has certain number of days after he/she will die? And that number cannot be changed by anything? Not by his/her actions nor by chance? Is this in the lore?
And I just saw my sentence on the forum ... it is confusing... sorry.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 08:48 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
Question: What if that man goes to battle with 10.000 hordes of undead all alone, would he survive on the basis that he's only 25 years old and has another 25 to live no matter what?
Nope, 97% that he'll just die. It certainly is possible for a Lich to die a final death before becoming Archlich. There's no "fate shield" around him, though I can imagine a scenario in which he wins that battle 
So you say you can have 50 destined years to live, but you can still die? Well how is that 50 destined years to live then! It defeats the meaning of destined life, lol.
It doesn't matter either way, as the Archlich text says "his or her physical shell would have normally permitted.. It's explicit that the lifespan is as connected to the physical shell. If you can modify the conditions under which the body lives, like drinking Manticore poison, then what your physical shell would permit may mean only a few seconds.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 08:52 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Supposing the same scenario, but the difference being that he drank it knowingly, committing suicide.
I reread his bio, it says he was gonna die in a matter of hours, so I imagine that time of natural death coincides with the time when the mixture of venoms took effect, i.e. he "died" exactly when that was destined, but survived. Thus he became an Archlich instantly.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 08:55 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
I reread his bio, it says he was gonna die in a matter of hours, so I imagine that time of natural death coincides with the time when the mixture of venoms took effect, i.e. he "died" exactly when that was destined, but survived. Thus he became an Archlich instantly.
You don't understand. Supposing someone wants that as well and does the same thing to himself.
Mr.X wants to become an Archlich and he wants it fast. He drinks Manticore Venom, so he will die in a matter of hours. 5 minutes afterwards, he drinks Namtaru Venom, so he will survive.
Does he become an Archlich in a few hours, because the Manticore Venom would have killed him? Or does it take 20 years, because he was preordained to die 20 years from now?
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 08:56 PM |
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Hopefully we get some new info because this lich talk is killing me.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 29, 2015 08:56 PM |
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Stormcaller said:
Hopefully we get some new info because this lich talk is killing me.
Not today, it would've happened by now otherwise.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 09:01 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:04, 29 Jan 2015.
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War-overlord said:
Mr.X wants to become an Archlich and he wants it fast. He drinks Manticore Venom, so he will die in a matter of hours. 5 minutes afterwards, he drinks Namtaru Venom, so he will survive.
Does he become an Archlich in a few hours, because the Manticore Venom would have killed him? Or does it take 20 years, because he was preordained to die 20 years from now?
If you buy what Marzhin suggested, that there is an arbitrary preordained number of days, which introduces under speculation another dimension of "destined life" that in fact is not destined life and that doesn't do any good but restrict even more, then it can mean absolutely anything.
If you link the lifespan to what the physical shell allows, as it's clearly stated in the Archlich's bio, then you can manipulate that to mean mere seconds.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 09:05 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
So every person in Ashan has certain number of days after he/she will die? And that number cannot be changed by anything? Not by his/her actions nor by chance? Is this in the lore?
And I just saw my sentence on the forum ... it is confusing... sorry.
There's a thing called "Asha's web" (mostly it's called so by Necro), you may say it equals global destiny. Asha gives birth, measures life until death when she snips the thread of life when the time is up. Metaphoric sentence, but I don't have any other explanations.
That means that every living thing in Ashan that originated from Asha have a destiny, so yeah, they all have "predestined" lifespan. But it most certainly can be changed. There're Fate-bending powers, there're Chaos and Void, there're spirits. I doubt victims of the 1st eclipse were supposed to die from Demon hands. Actually, drinking the venom of Namtaru is one way - it rescues one from the cycle.
Asha's web os imperfect, it was stated couple of times in-game and even Vein said that Necro themselves are a stain on her web.
Stevie said:
So you say you can have 50 destined years to live, but you can still die? Well how is that 50 destined years to live then! It defeats the meaning of destined life, lol.
It doesn't matter either way, as the Archlich text says "his or her physical shell would have normally permitted.. It's explicit that the lifespan is as connected to the physical shell. If you can modify the conditions under which the body lives, like drinking Manticore poison, then what your physical shell would permit may mean only a few seconds.
Forgive me, I forgot that in my example he became a Lich in 30. You might have guessed I made a mistake because I was talking of him as if he's a Lich already.
The answer is no, if he has 50 destined years and fights 10k Undead at the age of 25 he will survive that battle. That doesn't mean he'll win, but he will survive.
BUT if he goes to the same battle AFTER becoming a Lich, he won't have "fate shield" anymore.
And Stevie, read Archlich's full description, not the sentence you want. They feel the moment when their natural death should have came.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 09:08 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:17, 29 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Forgive me, I forgot that in my example he became a Lich in 30. You might have guessed I made a mistake because I was talking of him as if he's a Lich already.
The answer is no, if he has 50 destined years and fights 10k Undead at the age of 25 he will survive that battle. That doesn't mean he'll win, but he will survive.
BUT if he goes to the same battle AFTER becoming a Lich, he won't have "fate shield" anymore.
So you actually admitted invulnerability because of destined life? The guy's body gets impaled until sunrise and his brains and heart are eaten by the ghouls, and he still has to live 25 years?
LOL
See, it doesn't actually work. Linking the the years of life to the "physical shell" is not only logical, but it even has lore support.
And even more, how is it that Elves live for centuries and Humans around 70 years? Isn't that because they're bodies are different?! That's contradictory the the concept of arbitrary "destined life" because there is a patern that tells apart Elves from Humans because of their lifespan. You might think that it's because of their spirit, but it's mentioned that a spirit can reincarnate into any kind of being so there's no difference there. A human can live 70 years, then die and reincarnate as an elf that lives centuries when the only thing that changes is the body? So convenient lol.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 09:17 PM |
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War-overlord said:
You don't understand. Supposing someone wants that as well and does the same thing to himself.
Mr.X wants to become an Archlich and he wants it fast. He drinks Manticore Venom, so he will die in a matter of hours. 5 minutes afterwards, he drinks Namtaru Venom, so he will survive.
Does he become an Archlich in a few hours, because the Manticore Venom would have killed him? Or does it take 20 years, because he was preordained to die 20 years from now?
Aaahh you were talking about Stevie's suggestion!
Cosidering that we're talking about living mortal being 'cos that method won't work on somebody who's already a Lich.
1) Normally, his destiny won't allow him to commit suicide through the venom if he's destined to live another 20 years, so there's must be something affecting his fate. Maybe another Lich/Vampire.
2) Then the answer will be no, he won't become an Archlich. He died before his alloted time (which was set by "true" destiny) 'cos something "alien" influenced his fate. But Archlich status counts "true" destiny, not twisted. I hope my wording isn't confusing, I'll explain my point further if it is.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 29, 2015 09:18 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:19, 29 Jan 2015.
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Haha, it reminds me that back in the day when I was a kid I thought H3 Liches were woman because of their dress, long hair (I only later discovered it was a helmet) and voice. Admit it guys, they look pretty girly
Ashan She-Liches! Now that would be something 
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 29, 2015 09:19 PM |
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verriker said:
lol I know it's kind of unfair and I'm really, really not digging for dirt or anything but it is interesting,
I found another Marzhin post which says what I think better than I can ever say it myself lmao
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=47242
Marzhin said:
I think Heroes V is a great game with a poor universe. I think by keeping the old universe alive in H5, by making scenarios in that universe, by making campaigns in that universe, we will in fact improve H5. It's my opinion.
And I think Ubisoft didn't trash the true M&M universe because they are evil, but because they're just... well, stupid and proud. The poor fools truly believe Ashan is a better universe. 
By the way I intend to make a campaign which will better than the H5 ones to humiliate Ubi and burn Ashan in flames. MuhuhahahahaHAHAHAHAHA ! 
Heh, I remember that  I also did the "Morons of Might & Magic" comics back in the day. And for the record, I do believe that Legends of the Ancients is a better campaign than H5 vanilla
I did something even better than that, actually.
The first time I went to Ubisoft, I think it was for a fan-day or something, it was before Tribes of the East.
So I find myself sitting at a table with a few other French fans, Erwan, Fabrice Cambounet (H5 producer), and another, very quiet, bespectacled gentleman.
As a way of starting the conversation, Fabrice ask us what we think of H5. I said pretty much what is quoted above, without mincing words. I especially insist on how bad the story and dialogs of H5 are.
Then Fabrice smiles, and tells me: "Well, see that guy in front of you, that's Jeff Spock, the game's writer."
Talk about a way to meet your future colleagues!
Jeff later told me that he hadn't so much written the dialogs of H5 as script-doctored the scenes Nival was sending him, and how just before release he had discovered how the scenes were in the maps in a different order compared to the script, prompting another last-minute rewrite... Clearly for Jeff H5 had been a painful experience.
Anyway, I think it says something about these guys -- Erwan, Fabrice and Jeff-- that they hired me nonetheless.
And as I said elsewhere, Ashan did grow on me. I really think the universe has gotten better and more interesting with time.
Now, it's also important to remember I was 18 or 19 when I wrote the above post
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 29, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Stevie said:
So you actually admitted invulnerability because of destined life? The guy's body gets impaled until sunrise and his brains and heart are eaten by the ghouls, and he still has to live 25 years?
LOL
LOL back at you.
Do you even understand the concept of destiny? If you're destined to die in 50 years, you won't die through any normal methods. That means you won't be impaled and your brains won't be eaten in the first place. You'll either flee from that battle, win it or won't even happen to be near 10k Undead in the first place.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:25, 29 Jan 2015.
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Stevie said:
Marzhin said:
The H6 bio says :
An Archlich is given that title when he has continued “living” beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted.
It has nothing to do with becoming a skeleton faster or slower. You become an Archlich when you exceed what should have been your "unaltered" lifespan.
Unaltered lifespan of your physical shell, as the text mentions. Who's to say that consuming Manticore venom doesn't force the conditions of the physical shell to equal a lifespan of just a few minutes or hours?
Or are you going in the direction to say that there is a number of years attached to your existence in which it is practically impossible to die?
Maximum repost.
Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
So you actually admitted invulnerability because of destined life? The guy's body gets impaled until sunrise and his brains and heart are eaten by the ghouls, and he still has to live 25 years?
LOL
LOL back at you.
Do you even understand the concept of destiny? If you're destined to die in 50 years, you won't die through any normal methods. That means you won't be impaled and your brains won't be eaten in the first place. You'll either flee from that battle, win it or won't even happen to be near 10k Undead in the first place.
Dude! You cannot fight 10K undead and make it alive cuz of "destiny". That's beyond stretching any kind of imagination!
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 29, 2015 09:23 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:24, 29 Jan 2015.
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Marzhin said:
And as I said elsewhere, Ashan did grow on me. I really think the universe has gotten better and more interesting with time.
If you can't fight them, join them
Now about that Golden Dragons, Marzhin...
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 29, 2015 09:25 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 21:30, 29 Jan 2015.
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blob2 said:
Haha, it reminds me that back in the day when I was a kid I thought H3 Liches were woman because of their dress, long hair (I only later discovered it was a helmet) and voice. Admit it guys, they look pretty girly
Ashan She-Liches! Now that would be something
And make them look like that:
There is nothing as sexy as decaying boobies.
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