|
|
LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:18 PM |
|
|
Marzhin said:
Stevie said:
It's called Ashan.
I know of a religion where the avatar of a God died on a cross then came back to life and is still worshipped more than 2000 years later.
Rings a bell? 
Also, Christians worship the fact that he came back from the dead, not the fact that he died, thus proving that he is indeed above the mortals cycle and the Son of God 
|
|
Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:19 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
And that Avatar of God sought that on purpose and with very good reason as it was a Sacrifice that brought salvation
According to that religion, yes.
Which doesn't mean it is the truth, only that it is what cultists believe.
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:24 PM |
|
|
Danny said:
The Walking Dead is the biggest show right now so I'm definitely missing out the skeleton/zombie/vampire obsession...
Yeah me to. To me every faction is more or less equaly important. I have my favourites, but it's different every game. In H3 it realy was necropolis, in H5 it was Stronghold, after it came out. Tho Sylvan I like that game very much aswell. In H6, I was split between Haven, Necro and Sanctuary ... each had it's own merits and drawbacks.
Meh ... I'll get back to this thread when another theme will be discussed.
|
|
LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:25 PM |
|
|
|
Not only the MN started to die, but they also started to suddenly die out So it's not like their god forsake them, but that they are being wiped out with their god at once
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:25 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 17:27, 30 Jan 2015.
|
Marzhin said:
According to that religion, yes.
Which doesn't mean it is the truth, only that it is what cultists believe.
Relevance? - 0
Fact is, a sacrifice intending salvation is still worthy of appreciation/worship, whereas there is nothing worship-worthy in the fact that Sandro proves the Namtaru's mortality or ability to be seriously hurt.
Oh, by the way, in the Christian concept, physical death doesn't equal extermination of existence.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Sir_Godspeed
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:29 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
Marzhin said:
According to that religion, yes.
Which doesn't mean it is the truth, only that it is what cultists believe.
Relevance? - 0
Fact is, a sacrifice intending salvation is still worthy of appreciation/worship, whereas there is nothing worship-worthy in the fact that Sandro proves the Namtaru's mortality or ability to be seriously hurt.
Oh, by the way, in the Christian concept, physical death doesn't equal extermination of existence.
No, but the physical return of Jesus was a major point, cf. showing his still-wounded hands to St. Thomas.
____________
Sultan of Stupidity
|
|
Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:29 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
there is nothing worship-worthy in the fact that Sandro proves the Namtaru's mortality or ability to be seriously hurt.
As usual, you're missing the point. What's worship-worthy is that not only the Mother Namtaru did not die, she came out stronger from the trial, and one step closer to the Goddess herself.
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:32 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
So there already IS Namtaru venom in them. Case closed.
No, not case closed, because if it was there already in those quantities, they were Vampires already.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:34 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 17:39, 30 Jan 2015.
|
Marzhin said:
Stevie said:
there is nothing worship-worthy in the fact that Sandro proves the Namtaru's mortality or ability to be seriously hurt.
As usual, you're missing the point. What's worship-worthy is that not only the Mother Namtaru did not die, she came out stronger from the trial, and one step closer to the Goddess herself.
Granted, but that was not the context of what Cleglaw was saying  He made it sound like they were appreciating her more because of her mortality.
War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
So there already IS Namtaru venom in them. Case closed.
No, not case closed, because if it was there already in those quantities, they were Vampires already.
Speculation on quantity and it changing the effect.
Plus, if that were the case, why would they drink more venom when the only thing that it accomplishes is to corrode their bodies?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 05:46 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
Speculation on quantity and it having another effect.
And location, stomach versus bloodstream. (both of which you do not have when your a skeleton)
And the fact that you gloss over the fact that the elixir people take to become Liches is a mixture, meaning there are other things in there as well. Or even that there are things done to the Venom, whereas the pure form is what flows through a Vampire.
And the fact that if everything is already there, as you propose, they could become Vampires on their own accord. And if that was the case, then why are there even Liches for more time than it takes to set up the ritual and complete it. Vampire is the superior state, there is no need be a Lich longer than is possible.
All in all, this comes down to accepting Lore or not. And as you say yourself, you do not, because it stands in the way of getting what you want. Which makes further debate pointless.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 06:08 PM |
|
|
Marzhin said:
They're a cult, with the Spider as their Goddess. I don't really imagine them going "Oh by the way, let's prepare in case the mighty Avatar of our beloved, eternal Goddess, she who rules over Life and Death, disappears. You know, just in case." That would be going against their faith  Only the most cynical/pragmatic among them might prepare contingencies, and they are a minority -- and probably not the one you'd find on a battlefield For the others, the possibility of the Mother Namtaru disappearing for good is just inthinkable. After all, Sandro tried to erase her, but he failed. And since his attempt, she half-exists in the Spirit World anyway, making her even more like the Spider Goddess in the eyes of the cultists.
Thanks for your view on that one. It actually makes sense  . They're blinded by faith, literally - thereby oblivious of the oblivion that awaits them if their Avatar gets obliterated. But being the fanatics they are, they're likely rather to follow their icon than to run away and hide in a corner.
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:02 PM |
|
|
remember how h3 and 4 had a bunch of scenarios completely unrelated to the campaign and even the world of heroes? like the beowulf thing and battle of the sexes and stuff? where lore didn't matter as the factions and creature were nothing but toys you could set out in whatever way you wished since their origins didn't matter?
yeah, i want that back. campaigns don't need to be connected or even take place in the same universe! that would be so nice, seeing 6 completely different campaigns in completely different worlds. the freedom the writers would have and the places we could see! but alas, all we get is Ashan and more Ashan.
Basically, make the game and factions and then let the writers and folk come up wih their own stories around that rather than restrict them to Ashan. at least for one or two campaigns. that'd be nice.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:10 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 19:12, 30 Jan 2015.
|
War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
Speculation on quantity and it having another effect.
And location, stomach versus bloodstream. (both of which you do not have when your a skeleton)
And the fact that you gloss over the fact that the elixir people take to become Liches is a mixture, meaning there are other things in there as well. Or even that there are things done to the Venom, whereas the pure form is what flows through a Vampire.
And the fact that if everything is already there, as you propose, they could become Vampires on their own accord. And if that was the case, then why are there even Liches for more time than it takes to set up the ritual and complete it. Vampire is the superior state, there is no need be a Lich longer than is possible.
All in all, this comes down to accepting Lore or not. And as you say yourself, you do not, because it stands in the way of getting what you want. Which makes further debate pointless.
Yes, the lore can go snow itself if it restricts design decisions. But if there can be found a reason that satisfies both lore and design why not go for it?
On the issue itself.
- You believe that the difference between Lich and Vampire lies in the Ritual + Drinking Namtaru Venom, where the latter does not follow from anything. Then in that scenario you reason that the Lich drinks something else from the Vampire to explain why one is embalmed while the other is corroded.
- I believe that the difference between Lich and Vampire lies solely in the Ritual. And I brought the example of Ornella becoming a Vampire where she does NOT become a Lich and does NOT consume Namtaru Venom. I even found the cutscene where that is as obvious as daylight - Link
In BOTH cases, there is the question of why don't they just become Vampires directly, skipping the Lich part, and that can be explained by hierarchy at the time of Heroes 6. Receiving the ritual was a PRIVILEGE they earned for their service. That means that from the point of view of the process, the link between Lich and Vampire is superfluous, but otherwise relevant from the point of view of hierarchy.
So what you have to prove to make your case work is two things:
- that at the time of Heroes 6 becoming a Vampire involved drinking Namtaru Venom as part of the ritual;
- that there is no other way of becoming a Vampire without that process (essentially saying that Ornella and the Kiss of the Spider Goddess is not canon).
I need another aspirin now.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Findan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:11 PM |
|
|
|
Marzin, I have a question which bothers me a lot. Are those already presented "townscreens" going to be just slightly fixed or will we have new designs?
|
|
dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:19 PM |
|
|
Findan said:
Marzin, I have a question which bothers me a lot. Are those already presented "townscreens" going to be just slightly fixed or will we have new designs?
My guess is that they are going to be left untouched.
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:20 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
- I believe that the difference between Lich and Vampire lies solely in the Ritual. And I brought the example of Ornella becoming a Vampire where she does NOT become a Lich and does NOT consume Namtaru Venom. I even found the cutscene where that is as obvious as daylight - Link
So what you have to prove to make your case work is two things:
- that there is no other way of becoming a Vampire without that process (essentially saying that Ornella and the Kiss of the Spider Goddess is not canon).
And I am going to do just that. Sort of.
Because as Pawek pointed out correctly, the process there isn't finished. She's not a Vampire yet, as Arantir clearly states that Her Spirit needs to be "further purged in the crucible of Asha".
|
|
Findan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:23 PM |
|
|
dark-whisperer said:
My guess is that they are going to be left untouched.
That's what I'm afraid of. I really wonder why can't we have something a little bit more realistic like arts from votings.
|
|
A8T
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:34 PM |
|
Edited by A8T at 19:36, 30 Jan 2015.
|
Though I prefer the H5 Lich to the H6 one I don't understand what it is about the H6 Lich people dislike so much? It's essentially a thin bald floating dude with a staff. Is it the fact that it is humanoid compared to the traditional necropolis skeletons or is there more to it?
And as for the Vampire, was it not fairly similar to the H5 version anyway?
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:37 PM |
|
|
|
LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
|
|
posted January 30, 2015 07:39 PM |
|
|
A8T said:
Though I prefer the H5 Lich to the H6 one I don't understand what it is about the H6 Lich people dislike so much? It's essentially a thin bald floating dude with a staff. Is it the fact that it is humanoid compared to the traditional necropolis skeletons or is there more to it?
Ubi:Here's the new lich!
Fans: That's some ugly crap there
Ubi: But it totally supports our new lore change who no one asked for and was completely unnecessary
Fans: It's awful and we don't like the lore change!
A few years later:
Ubi:Here at Might & Magic HQ, we’re very fond of the H6 Necropolis, and we feel they are one of the best factions of that game in terms of art direction. So we didn’t want to recreate it from scratch
Fans: *facepalm*
It's not only the design, but also the fact that they reused a model from a previous game which the fanbase told clearly they hate it and didn't want to see it in the first place
|
|
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
