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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 31, 2015 12:22 AM |
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Quote:
Whatever, I'm glad they arent breaking the lore for that idiocy.
Lore serves the game, not game serves the lore. 
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:28 AM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
Whatever, I'm glad they arent breaking the lore for that idiocy.
Lore serves the game, not game serves the lore.
Aesthetics are indicated by the lore. And breaking the lore to make guys who look 80% like skeletons to make them actual skeletons because some inmature brat wants would be frankly stupid
I love the quote about the artist that Marzhin did. It's so true
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:29 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
artu said:
Now, if you get killed on top of this, we have our own cult ready and steady to go.
Actually, Sandro's already killed. By that idiot Cyrus.
Oh my, he survived the CATACLYSM, the Voidification, nearly killed several Gods and died by hands of mortal wizard.
Now that's Ashan's biggest plot-hole if you ask me
DId not want to even comment i this thread, considering what everything is happening here, but:
Marzhin commented in this or some other thread that Cyrus was not alone when he confronted Sandro. So he probably fell to something he did not expect (Vein or Zakhera probably).
Anyway i'm now going back to shadows and hoping that moderators finally stop the whole "lich-stupidity" that is happening in this thread.
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Sir_Godspeed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 31, 2015 12:33 AM |
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Gee, I sure am glad we're still debating the lich issue.
kiryu133 said:
remember how h3 and 4 had a bunch of scenarios completely unrelated to the campaign and even the world of heroes? like the beowulf thing and battle of the sexes and stuff? where lore didn't matter as the factions and creature were nothing but toys you could set out in whatever way you wished since their origins didn't matter?
yeah, i want that back. campaigns don't need to be connected or even take place in the same universe! that would be so nice, seeing 6 completely different campaigns in completely different worlds. the freedom the writers would have and the places we could see! but alas, all we get is Ashan and more Ashan.
Basically, make the game and factions and then let the writers and folk come up wih their own stories around that rather than restrict them to Ashan. at least for one or two campaigns. that'd be nice.
I agree wholeheartedly! I loved playing those little stories, many of which were completely silly. Battle of the Sexes is one, and H4 had some great ones as well, such as The Three Fat Pigs, Biggun's Playground and Hell Hath No Fury. So much fun.  Then again, H4 was the epitome of Heroes storytelling, imo.
I mean, someone mentioned Gauldoth some pages back - that character had all the originality, depth and growth to fill an entire game virtually on his own.
Kimarous said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Marzhin said:
I know of a religion where the avatar of a God died on a cross then came back to life and is still worshipped more than 2000 years later.
Rings a bell? 
:sigh: That was not avatar of god... but son of god. There's a difference, you know.
Well, that's a matter of theological debate. There are those who subscribe to the notion that the Holy Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all aspects of the same god, while others-
*gets crushed under the "NOBODY CARES" stamp*
The VAST majority of Christians are Trinitarian and have been since 200 AD or so, after the fall of the Gnostic sects and Arianism.
In Trinitarian Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodox Churches, and most Protestant and Lutheran Churches) the Father (God as the Creator), the Son (Jesus Christ as "the Redeemer") and the Holy Spirit are all "God", though they are not each other, as it were. Compare it with the Hindu Trimurti, which is similar, though of course not identical. Then there's the whole deal with whether Jesus and "the Christ" are two natures, divine and mortal, in one being, or one being with one mixed divie-mortal nature. And the thing with Christ literally being the "Word" that was uttered in the beginning to create the universe/the world.
Christianity is actually pretty cool, as long as you view its mythology like that of any othe religion (no disrespect of course).
/terribletangent
I guess the moral here is that once the Necromancers started worshipping the Mother Namtaru, theyre pretty much able to rationalize anything to continue believing in her, because it gives them purpose in (un)life.
My gripe is therefore with the Necromancers being a fundamentalist cult to begin with.
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Sultan of Stupidity
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:39 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:41, 31 Jan 2015.
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Sorts said:
Anyway i'm now going back to shadows and hoping that moderators finally stop the whole "lich-stupidity" that is happening in this thread.
You know what I'm hoping?
That the ones that are not interested in the so called "lich-stupidity" or in what the Necropolis creatures look like would stop reading those comments instead of reading them and then b******g like little wussies out of a sentiment of entitlement.
You don't like it? Don't snowing read it. It's that simple. Some people DO care about it so snow off.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 31, 2015 12:39 AM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 00:43, 31 Jan 2015.
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i dunno man. designing factions and then creating lore based on that is the superior option to me. something doesn't fit between games? make something up for crying out loud! i mean it worked in the nwc games (creature jumping factions willy nilly), why not here?
it would also allow for more scenarios/campaign outside the cannon/token universe since the factions would have been designed less for a specific thing and more for what is aesthetically pleasing and works together. kind of what h4 did: factions being "descendants" of the h3 ones but at the same time vague enough to allow for completely different and unique scenarios. Just blindly forcing everyone on the team to focus on one setting is not fun. let them experiment with many different settings and universes.
There shouldn't need to be any ridiculous reasons to explain why a creature is in this or that factions: they should be allowed to jump around as they please and having such strict and enforced lore really stops the games from shining through.
edit:
Sir_Godspeed said:
The Three Fat Pigs
this needs to be in h7. I DON'T CARE if it doesn't fit or whatever. Three Fat Pigs was amazing and i demand an official remake 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 12:43 AM |
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Stevie said:
Kiss of the Spider Goddess IS NOT the same ritual as in Heroes 6. The ritual is 100% displayed in the cinematic where Ornella becomes a vampire in Heroes 5, and it DOES NOT involve Namtaru venom. If I'm not mistaking, the concept of Namtaru was altogether non-existent in Heroes 5.
Stevie, you do understand that you're fighting two lore-hounds here, don't you?
Anastasya received Kiss of the Spider Goddess in H6. And my proofs:
1) MN quote from 4th Necro campaign Anastasya! Accept my kiss… and wander… your fate unwoven from Asha's web…
2) Necro 4th map intro: Anastasya has freed Sveltana and taken the Spider's Kiss. Now a powerful Necromancer, she leads her army of Undead against a legion of Demons attempting to corrupt a chain of Dragon Veins north of Heresh. The treacherous Miranda has passed on, but not before giving Anastasya an important clue to discovering the identity of the person who took control of her mind and used her to kill her father.
Now to the Ornella.
IT IS GAME CINEMATICS. H5's cinematics. There's no way they will show you if somebody drank the venom or now. They're restricted to game animations. She might have drank the venom, but that's simply not shown. And btw, even in Marzhin's post you're quoting there're words "mostly in vanilla and HoF". Mostly. That leaves TotE.
Knowing Arantir - he's religious fanatic - it's unlikely that he would allow Ornella to become a Vampire without first becoming a Lich.
And you miss the point that the ritual itself was interrupted by Giovanni. Btw, his eyes are certainly not green. Say again that everything in TotE is 100% lore accurate.
I don't understand what you gain from the fact that there're 2 ways of becoming Vampire. No one argued that point. But she coudn't be reincarnated with RotN, so that remains KotSG.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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A8T
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:45 AM |
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To be honest, even if there are other ways to become sentient undead, it sounds rare.
A: Because the Necropolis faction is dominated by the Spider Cult, so they probably go the Namtaru venom for religious reasons. In the same quest I mentioned earlier you are sent to kill (interestingly enough Spider Cultists) as it defies their religion. There are others within Heresh (like Belketh) who see it as more of a science, but they are probably limited to what they can do so as not to upset religious establishment.
B: If you care about living forever, and the Namtaru venom works, then why try something unsafe and untested? Nope, I think your average Necromancer will go for brand Namtaru.
P.S. Just before I forget I do remember in Shades of Darkness Vein was supposed to have been turned undead without Namtaru's Venom, which is why he was resistant to Sandro's void attack on the Mother Namtaru.... but that still does not disprove my point as to why the majority choose to keep them self healthy and dead with a nice cool glass of Mother Namtaru's Venom!
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Sir_Godspeed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 31, 2015 12:47 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
Sir_Godspeed said:
The Three Fat Pigs
this needs to be in h7. I DON'T CARE if it doesn't fit or whatever. Three Fat Pigs was amazing and i demand an official remake
Oh god, the text boxes where your mother adopts a Cyclops. XD
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Sultan of Stupidity
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 12:53 AM |
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Quote:
You know what I'm hoping?
That the ones that are not interested in the so called "lich-stupidity" or in what the Necropolis creatures look like would stop reading those comments instead of reading them and then b******g like little wussies out of a sentiment of entitlement.
You don't like it? Don't snowing read it. It's that simple. Some people DO care about it so snow off.
STFU ALREADY. YOU'RE ANNOYING THE WHOLE GODDAMN FORUM
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 31, 2015 12:58 AM |
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Stormcaller said:
STFU ALREADY. YOU'RE ANNOYING THE WHOLE GODDAMN FORUM
No U
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 31, 2015 01:01 AM |
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Stormcaller said:
STFU ALREADY. YOU'RE ANNOYING THE WHOLE GODDAMN FORUM
hey I enjoy his posts on this subject, I might be a little bit biased though lol
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 01:14 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Now to the Ornella.
IT IS GAME CINEMATICS. H5's cinematics. There's no way they will show you if somebody drank the venom or now. They're restricted to game animations. She might have drank the venom, but that's simply not shown. And btw, even in Marzhin's post you're quoting there're words "mostly in vanilla and HoF". Mostly. That leaves TotE.
Knowing Arantir - he's religious fanatic - it's unlikely that he would allow Ornella to become a Vampire without first becoming a Lich.
And you miss the point that the ritual itself was interrupted by Giovanni. Btw, his eyes are certainly not green. Say again that everything in TotE is 100% lore accurate.
Sorry dude, but cinematics are lore. The fact that she didn't drink Namtaru venom is not because they were restricted by animations, that wouldn't ever be a problem. It's rather that at the time of Heroes 5 the concept of Namtaru and vampires drinking her venom was non-existent. In fact, the link between liches and vampires didn't existed, and even less that vampires were superior to liches lol.
So as I said also to WO, unless it's a retcon, it's canon. For all we know the rituals bear the same name but they are definitely different in nature.
Sandro400 said:
I don't understand what you gain from the fact that there're 2 ways of becoming Vampire. No one argued that point.
Maybe uniqueness was not contested as a point, but it serves as a precedent now to demonstrate that different ways of becoming a vampire that do not depend on being a Lich or drinking Namtaru venom are possible. And that is huge. Incidentally, it even makes Ornella's case a lot more likely.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 31, 2015 01:18 AM |
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this is annoying some people, so why not just open a new topic to discuss the details of the lore of liches and namtarus and crap like that?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 01:23 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:26, 31 Jan 2015.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 31, 2015 01:27 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 01:44, 31 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Actually, Sandro's already killed. By that idiot Cyrus.
Oh my, he survived the CATACLYSM, the Voidification, nearly killed several Gods and died by hands of mortal wizard.
Now that's Ashan's biggest plot-hole if you ask me
"How often had Morlan seen the statue, standing tall in the center of the village square? The statue of a proud man, honored for deeds Morlan did not know anything about. And yet, despite having seen this statue more often than he could remember, he sometimes wondered about it. Who was this man in life? He gazed at it, as the sunlight of the setting sun was painting it in an amber glow.
"Paying tribute to Hrogtar, young man?" a voice from behind him said.
He turned around to find an old man sitting there on the bench, a few yards behind him. The old man was wrinkled and shriveled, bent over by age, time had obviously taken its toll. He was resting his hands on top of a walking cane, placed firmly in the ground before him. Morlan wondered if the man still had all his teeth, by the way he held his lips. Grey, greasy hair protruded from under his hat, a yellow feather stuck casually in the rim. It, too, had faded with age.
"Hrogtar?" he answered the old man's question with one of his own.
"Yes, Hrogtar. Don't you know him? Slayer of Malabor the Giant, Hero of Titan's Pass, General of the Twin Armies? I don't see a glint of recognition in your eyes, young man. Shame on you."
"I'm sorry," Morlan stuttered apologetic to the man, "I guess I am not well versed in heroes of old."
The old man patted the empty seat on the bench next to him.
"Then let me tell you his story, young lad, so that he is never forgotten."
The old man paused, until Morlan moved up and sat next to him. Together they looked at the statue of the man now known to Morlan as Hrogtar.
"To begin with, he started his road to glory at what I guess has to be about your age. Youthful inspiration and an ambition to match, to change the world for better made him choose the road before he got stuck in some forsaken hole, like what happened to me. But that's another story, if you're interested."
"Let's stick with Hrogtar, please," Morlan said, "I am in a bit of a hurry."
"Sure. You will have time to do reminiscing when you're as old as I am, young lad. Anyway, I'll give you the brief version then. As I said, when Hrogtar became a man, he wanted to make the world a better place. He started off with small and mundane tasks, helping people as he travelled the world. It wasn't before long that he managed to settle the dispute between the towns of Breghton en Varonnax, a dispute which had them rolling in the mud for years. Can you believe they're now the best of allies? Thanks to him," the old man said, pointing at the statue.
"His travels brought him to the hamlet of Brookshire, which was being harassed by a giant, named Malabor. He tricked the giant, drawing him out in a combat that was much more in Hrogtar's favor than the giant, eventually besting him! I believe they still have the giant's club as an artifact in the village hall of Brookshire."
The man seemed lost in thought for a moment before he continued.
"Anyway, he moved on, making a name for himself. His reputation started to precede him, he was quickly becoming a hero! It was at that time that King Gerrenus the Second of Arvalar called on his aid. Arvalar had a harbor town, Herrals, on the southern peninsula, which had been cut off by a bunch of angry Titans. The Titans claimed the kingdom of Arvalar had not paid its toll for making use of what was known as Titan's Pass and had essentially sealed off Herrals from the rest of the kingdom, something Gerrenus the Second didn't appreciate. It took Hrogtar three years to defeat the Titans, but he did it in the end. He turned the tables on them, by making the survivors pay a tithe for remaining in the Pass, while protecting travellers to and from Herrals!"
Morlan nodded, somewhat impressed.
"Of course, he was a desired man from that point onwards. Requests for help started to come from all over the continent, people were actively seeking him out to personally ask for his help. He did what he could, until he got a particularly challenging task: to end the war that had been raging for many years between the Elves of Raganoll Forest and those of The Undergrowth. Neither was willing to concede to the other, refused to listen to reason and peace. But Hrogtar managed it. Do you know how he managed to do that?"
"I have no idea," Morlan replied.
"He first went to the Elves of Raganoll Forest and offered his help. Through his tactics, he managed to forge the guerrila warbands into an oiled warmachine. But at the same time, unknown to anyone else, he also offered his help to the Elves of The Undergrowth. He did the same there, forging another army. Had either side known he was working for the other, too, he would surely have been executed. But beautifully orchestrated, he finally ordered both armies onto the battlefield, making himself indisposed until the lines were drawn. Then he rode onto the battlefield, between both armies, both seeing their General in him. And with a grand speech, he made them realise they were actually one and the same. The same Elves and the way he had forged both armies, there was no difference either. Elven Warriors saw no difference between the brethren next to them and the enemy on the other side. It was a bloodless victory, a war with no losers! Both sides combined into one in the aftermath, ruling over both forests ever since."
"Impressive," Morlan said in earnest, "so, what happened to him? Did he die in a glorious way, a noble sacrifice for the greater good?"
"Well, when his age started to catch up to him, he returned to the village where he was born, for what was supposed to be a short break. A week after his return, he left his home for a morning walk. It had been raining that night and as he stepped out the door, he slipped in a pool of mud. As he was falling down, he hit his head on the bench just below his window, breaking his neck."
Sorry, couldn't resist, hehe. The notion of heroes always dieing a heroic death ... death can come in silly ways too, hehe.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 02:01 AM |
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Stevie said:
Sorry dude, but cinematics are lore. The fact that she didn't drink Namtaru venom is not because they were restricted by animations, that wouldn't ever be a problem. It's rather that at the time of Heroes 5 the concept of Namtaru and vampires drinking her venom was non-existent. In fact, the link between liches and vampires didn't existed, and even less that vampires were superior to liches lol.
So as I said also to WO, unless it's a retcon, it's canon. For all we know the rituals bear the same name but they are definitely different in nature.
Oook. You remember cinematic where Godric, Zehir, Findan and Raelag got teleported to Sheogh? Suddenly they teleported with entire army, Zehir even got his elephant back. ITS LORE. Heroes also cast random spells while talking. Its Lore also. You see, game cinematics are crude even technically.
And here you're completely lost. Avonu and I posted here a newsletter about Necromancers. It was done during H5 development and are totally canon. You can read them here: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=28702
Failure. Once again
Nope, they're one and the same. I already provided evidence.
Stevie said:
Maybe uniqueness was not contested as a point, but it serves as a precedent now to demonstrate that different ways of becoming a vampire that do not depend on being a Lich or drinking Namtaru venom are possible. And that is huge. Incidentally, it even makes Ornella's case a lot more likely.
I'll repeat my question: what are you trying to prove? No one said that there's only one way of becoming a Vampire. I just simply don't understand why you pulled this topic out.
@Maurice, that was a joke, you took it too seriously But my fan feelings are really hurt by the fact that Sandro lost to mere human. Yes, Marzhin said that Cyrus was not alone, but still. It was he who dealt the fatal blow.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sir_Godspeed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 31, 2015 02:04 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
@Maurice, that was a joke, you took it too seriously But my fan feelings are really hurt by the fact that Sandro lost to mere human. Yes, Marzhin said that Cyrus was not alone, but still. It was he who dealt the fatal blow.
A pebble can kill even the mightiest warrior if the circumstances are right.
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Sultan of Stupidity
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 03:16 AM |
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Sir_Godspeed said:
A pebble can kill even the mightiest warrior if the circumstances are right.
Aaaand? No need to tell me this, I know it.
Quoting myself:
Sandro400 said:
that was a joke, you took it too seriously But my fan feelings are really hurt by the fact that Sandro lost to mere human.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 03:36 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 03:43, 31 Jan 2015.
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@Sandro400, I'm not making a point with this, just wanna show why misunderstandings appear.
Quote:
The Necromancers
By Jeff Spock, Writer, and Erwan Le Breton, World Coordinator.
Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of the sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.
http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Arantir said:
Posing as a loyal vassal, Giovanni had his apprentice Ornella slay Lord Malfroy and take the northwestern city of Iluma Nadin as a gift to Arantir. When Arantir arrived to claim it, Giovanni presented him Ornella as well, requesting that he transform her into a vampire through the Kiss of the Spider Goddess. Agreeing, Arantir teleported the three to Asha's Web and performed the ritual. As he completed the process, Giovanni, seizing his chance, rushed toward Arantir and attacked him from behind. However, Arantir retorted with a spell, killing Giovanni as Ornella watched. She was quick to swear fealty to Arantir, and he had her sent to Nar-Ankar to "purge her spirit further in the crucible of the Goddess".
Ubisoft.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
