|
|
Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
|
posted February 02, 2015 12:48 PM |
|
|
Well, there has to be a balance between exploring and rushing. Heroes 6 was heavily focused on rushing and you couldn't explore the map. And honestly, as i read somewhere you had no real reason to except to find dynasty weapons. I mean dwellings were sparse and usually not all that needed because they offered nothing new, diplomacy skill was broken and it was really hard and there to get any creature to your army etc.
I think heroes 7 should focus a little bit more on maps that make you wanna explore instead of rushing to the enemy to defeat him and move on. In order to do so, maybe more expensive dwellings could be the key, or more complex and advance options in Town building.
As for the idea of 5/5/3 units in order to choose 3/3/1 is adding to this, because if you do not explore to see what options you have or get a first feel of your enemy, you cannot really get a whole plan as to how to amass your army.
Now before you get at me, i know most of you prefer the vanilla not to have this option and also i know that the developers will not even consider it. But i won't stop supporting the notion over alternative upgrades.
One thing i love about heroes is the ability to have some time to explore and find neutral units or units i like from other factions and be able to add them to my army. The exploration part was lost in Heroes 6 and i hope we can get it back
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:14 PM |
|
|
No, Capitol is a general problem in those games, because it allows a buy-out of the full town production which is bad in 1/1 games where everyone has just one town: you can turtle.
If there was no Capitol, but instead more outside income sources that wouldn't be possible.
Generally, town income and building/hiring costs shouldn't be "related" at all, and having more to build than a hero has slots is advantageous as well, because the player loses all "natural guide lines". Economy becomes a lot more volatile and dependent on expansion and flagging , which is good.
In case of HoMM 3/5/6 you can make all decisions based on difficulty level (starting gold) and what you see at any point of the map.
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:26 PM |
|
|
Exactly. As long as you can buy everything in your town, only thanks to the town, you don't need the map, ergo you don't need most of the game. You have no motivation.
Example. I have a very big stack in front of me. I can't beat it now. What will I do? Presse a few times E and DONE. But if I can't get enough money this way, or even none at all, I have to do something about it. I have to play the game.
As long as the capital provides enough gold to buy the entire population each week, it takes more from the game then it gives.
Another example are treasure chests When was the last time Treasure chests were actually a decision? I know I will get the gold, I will get enough of it, then why bother.
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:29 PM |
|
|
Articun said:
As for the idea of 5/5/3 units in order to choose 3/3/1 is adding to this, because if you do not explore to see what options you have or get a first feel of your enemy, you cannot really get a whole plan as to how to amass your army.
Now before you get at me, i know most of you prefer the vanilla not to have this option and also i know that the developers will not even consider it. But i won't stop supporting the notion over alternative upgrades.
I do not think it is the case that we do not want 5/5/3 or a 5/4/2 or whatever alternative in A Vanilla game. Just not This Vanilla game. Why? As said before, because of the base-game. If they get it right this time and get it right enough that they can re-use most assets in a Future Heroes 8, then yes. Such a thing would be very welcomed in a Vanilla release.
And I support this over alternative upgrades as well. Multiple units bring more variety to the game then alternate upgrades. If only for the fact that Alternate Upgrades can only expand upon the basic-creature. Whether you Upgrade a Pikeman to a Halberdier or a Lancer, the creature will not totally switch roles. And if they do, it might well be a wierd and possibly bad design choice.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:32 PM |
|
|
Well I don't know about this Capitol thing. I mean, if you choose to turtle, then you don't get any XP. Also, why would want miss the fun of the game on purpose?
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:42 PM |
|
|
|
Usually, turtling in a town is advantageous for the defender - which means, against an opponent who turtles EVENTUALLY (since he's SLIGHTLY inferior and would probably lose an open field battle), you can't actually win, because your reign over the map doesn't gain anything. If you can't hire out, however, your advantage will become too big.
|
|
Steyn
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:46 PM |
|
|
Besides, multiple towns beats capitol only. Therefore turtling in your town is a stupid thing to do. And if you have multiple town your income from towns only won't be enough to pay for all units so outside gold sources will still be important.
____________
Can you make a faction including these units?
Join the Finding Harmony competition 2.0!
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:49 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 13:50, 02 Feb 2015.
|
Steyn said:
Therefore turtling in your town is a stupid thing to do.
On top of being boring. I prefer to take risks and eventually loose the map. If I play correctly, I end up with a few towns in early game then things starts to get spicy. Secondary heroes comes in handy as well. 
____________
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 01:56 PM |
|
|
What about maps that only have one town for each player???
And don't you think a game should motivate you to play it, rather then just stand there waiting for you?
A good game should be engaging, motivating, difficult. Not a handing you simple solution. Rather give you challenges to overcome, and give you a sense of progress and achievement.
|
|
Hex
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:00 PM |
|
|
It is Monday.  Sorry Stievie I was faster.
I wonder what we would get for today. I hope it won't be "Meet the Devs" article or something like that.
|
|
Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:02 PM |
|
|
Hex said:
It is Monday. Sorry Stievie I was faster.
I wonder what we would get for today. I hope it won't be "Meet the Devs" article or something like that.
We will see
|
|
blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:16 PM |
|
Edited by blob2 at 14:22, 02 Feb 2015.
|
|
When looking on the schedule, it appears there won't be anything interesting for a while. Stronghold wasn't even mentioned, and other things worth noting have the "in next few weeks" tag. Maybe they'll re-introduce the skeletal lich ;P
|
|
Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:24 PM |
|
|
blob2 said:
When looking on the schedule, it appears there won't be anything interesting for a while. Stronghold wasn't even mentioned, and other things worth noting have the "in next few weeks" tag. Maybe they'll re-introduce the skeletal lich ;P
But we might see in this week haven video & academy heroes maybe?
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:27 PM |
|
|
If there would be no way to fully hire army when all buildings are built out, because lack of gold, then say goodbye to core creatures basicaly. Hire champions and couple of elites and you're done. If you get 2 towns, you also won't be able to hire 2 sets of creatures, so this would encourage you to stack champions in one army. This gets worse with more towns.
No capitol would work best ONLY on maps where 1v1 and each have only one town. Yet in those scenarios I don't think it would be necessary. This is because from my experience most games are over by maybe month 3 at the worst, but usualy end way faster - like at begining of month 2 or even end of month 1 - week 3 or 4 is usualy (in H5) when I would meet the oponent. And by that time, neither you nor him has town fully built. In fact it was just about time when Capitol/Castle would be up or/and T7 dwelling built.
During this time it's impossible to camp, since it is the time when you are mostly lacking on gold and other resources and there's lots of treasure to collect, and indeed prevent oponent from doing the same. The one that will collect the fastest will win, and ofc, camping on town is silly strategy.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:29 PM |
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard said:
This is because from my experience most games are over by maybe month 3 at the worst
Even on XL maps?
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:38 PM |
|
|
Look, basically ALL town buildings that increase the base income are more or less REDUNDANT! Except, if you have to pay a relatively high amount of RESOURCES for them, the way it was in HoMM 2 and HoMM 4.
Paying gold to earn more gold is complete bollocks.
That needs as increase of gold sources ON MAP - which is what everyone wants (map objects that make it worthwhile to roam around, flag things and also take care to keep what you flagged).
And as a general comment, if town-building is on HoMM 5 complexity level, the complexity itself isn't working too well with having a couple of towns (which is why you see exclusively maps with only a couple of town in HoMM 5).
If it was me, I would make a difference between your starting town - the ONLY towns that could be fully built up to max - and "others" which would be "villages" in which you could build only a certain part of the infrastructure (with different focus points: there could be "garrisons" with creature dwellings, there could be trade centers with market stuff and economy boosts, there could be magic universities and so on).
That way, you could have all the unique stuff that gets OP, oince you control more than one of those as well.
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 02:41 PM |
|
|
@Zombi_Wizzard: And that is exactly where strategy comes in! Should I buy this one dragon, or boost those archers i already have and be able to build a new mage guild on top of it.
By the way, there are other ways to get gold except for towns you know.
Gold mines would actually mean something
Resources on the map would actually motivate and not be a "trash to pick up"
Skills and artifacts
Quest and Treasuries
Market places and Trading
All this would became more relevant if being able to buy the entire population wasn't given by "one" building.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 03:16 PM |
|
|
In my opinion a capitol is a must. It only has to be unlocked later.What if Capitol could only be built after champion dwelling+Castle?
In games with only 1 town each by the time you would get the capitol built the game would be usually over anyways and on larger maps the extra cash can come in handy. Without the extra gold, building up a second town will be almost impossible even on larger maps, not to mention buying the creatures.
Also many RMG generated maps(both H3&5) are not exactly balanced and getting a gold mine is not something one can count on. And that would limit us to custom made maps only and that is not something I personally would like.
So unless you want an economy built around getting free piles of gold every other step and useing 8 different heroes just to pick up most of them then you need to guarantee a steady income one way or another.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 03:20 PM |
|
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted February 02, 2015 03:35 PM |
|
|
Sorry but talking about RG-maps when discussing balance, especially when there is no certainty if there will ever be one, is somewhat pointless
And your argument can be turned against you.
On small maps, you will not notice it. On larger you will have the extra motivation.
I See the Capitol as burden, like oil. Something people are so used to that they can't see that things could be better without it.
|
|
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
