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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 04, 2015 03:32 PM |
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@ Maurice: Wow so much disagreement..
Ok just some major points..
- something that pays itself back in 5 days is not an MAJOR investment. Especialy if it is a risk free. It is an EXPENSIVE investment.. yes it is.. but MAJOR? Not, not it isn't.
- Your little charts are OK, but not exactly usefull you know adding the resources to the cost of the creatures, is not relevant. Since those are iether produced within the castle or make little difference (Especially adding the cost of buying those resources is bad when talking about cash) Why did you sell the provided resources and wasn't smart. You could add them to up and exchanged them? (A castle provides 14 units of ore and wood this represents (70% of the value of a rare resource if I'm correct) Adding External Ore mines and Lumber mills (provided to you on almost every map, you can't count something that is provided to you in such a way as an external factor, even more if we speak of prices of other buildings whitout mentioning these factors.) you get 210% and therefore can exchange these resourcess rather then Sell/buy them? This would reduce the Number of "not susstainable faction from 5 to 2.
I'll show you what I mean.
If a player builds a mage guild.He has to have the skills, atributes and activally use them. When he builds a dwelling he has to buy those creatures, use them and RISK them. They are not self-replacing for free, like the gold you put into your capitol, once you loose a creature it is gone forever. BTW there is your risk, your investment, in geting a gold mine. You invest resources for the dwellings, mage guilds, gold for the creatures and the creatures to get it. It is much harder to get a gold mine then a Capitol.
Once you have a Capitol, you have a steady income of 28k for a week. And your charts show that in many cases not even a fully developed town COST so much to recruit, They actually generate profit. This means that from the moment you have a capitol you don't need gold from the map. You need rare resources, since the common onse are usually provided. But apart from rare resources you don't need the map, since the town provides enough gold for one, or even 2 towns in some cases.
The problem is not How much money the capitol provides, but that it provides ENOUGHT money. If it would produce lets sey 3000 instead. It would still provide enought for a swith developement but at the same time not enought to recruit it all. To be exact it would provide enought to sustain first 6 troops. The last, final, champion would need to be financed from external sources, this highlithing his status.
Now let us talk about the game, Think about the game. Doesn't take something from this epic, kingdom building experience, when you know.. and you know.. that you don't have to do ANYTHING and still be able to get EVERYTHING. Don't let the game work for us, let the game give us some sence of achievement.
Now lets moove to H7 shal wee. We know, that the capitol system will be there. We know, that there wont be one, but 2 resource generating buildings. And we know that the market itself generated gold in H6 (Will this return?). So With the future in sight, I don't see much hope for a chalanging economi system.. more like slightli better H6 one.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2015 03:51 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:52, 04 Feb 2015.
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Maurice said:
Stevie said:
- 6 Core, 4 Elite and 2 Champion dwellings for each faction, for a total of 12.
- Capitol will give you 4000 gold, being able to sustain weekly recruitment of 3 Cores, 2 Elites and 1 Champion;
- Heroes will have 7 army slots;
Do you mean to say that a fully developed town actually has 12 different creatures available for hiring?
Yes.
Maurice said:
Like I argued in my post above, you are bound to gravitate to creatures that don't die as easily. When you have enough money to buy 1 creature with 100 Hitpoints versus 10 creatures of 10 Hitpoints, which are otherwise equal in strength, you will buy the single one with 100 Hitpoints. After all, assuming the stack survives the battle, any attack that deals 90 damage would reduce the latter stack to one creature of 10 hitpoints for the rest of the game (reducing it to 1/10th of its power), while the stack with the one creature of 100 Hitpoints will remain and be at 100 Hitpoints for the next battle.
Problem is you won't have enough money, not from your Capitol. And if you're making a point out of 10 creatures with 10 hp and 1 creature with 100 hp you must be playing the wrong game, because that's just the basic concept of creature Tier.
Maurice said:
And the 4000 Gold in your example is based off of the previous installments. Since we know very little of the economy (income and expenditure, the latter in both building cost and creature cost) in the coming Heroes title, stating any specific amount is rather pointless to begin with.
The only thing you have to know is that 4000 gold per day allows the recruitment of 3 Core, 2 Elites and 1 Champion (without rare resources, just gold). And by that you can establish that you will need the same amount if you want to support the other ones too.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 04, 2015 03:55 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Looked her up, and she can burn for all I care 
hush Tyrande
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 04, 2015 04:02 PM |
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The WoW character? What she got to do with Ashan?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 04, 2015 04:05 PM |
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12 creatures per town...does that mean that H6 & H7 skeletons could count as different creatures? 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 04, 2015 04:10 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 16:12, 04 Feb 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
@ Maurice: Wow so much disagreement..
Ok just some major points..
- something that pays itself back in 5 days is not an MAJOR investment. Especialy if it is a risk free. It is an EXPENSIVE investment.. yes it is.. but MAJOR? Not, not it isn't.
It's 5 days of set-back in early game. I would say that's a MAJOR setback, where another player is investing that cash into creatures to defeat the map. As time passes, the setback gets smaller, until it's low-risk building it.
Quote:
- Your little charts are OK, but not exactly usefull you know adding the resources to the cost of the creatures, is not relevant. Since those are iether produced within the castle or make little difference (Especially adding the cost of buying those resources is bad when talking about cash) Why did you sell the provided resources and wasn't smart. You could add them to up and exchanged them? (A castle provides 14 units of ore and wood this represents (70% of the value of a rare resource if I'm correct)
Admitted, I didn't consider converting Wood & Ore into the rare resource required. Still, besides needing something to equilize the Towns, that common to rare resource ratio is also pretty bad. I found a table here, of which I right away admit I don't know if it's up to date. I think it is, but I am not very certain. Anyway, as said, the conversion rate is horrible, it's 20 to 1. With a yield of 14 per week (7 Ore, 7 Wood), you can't even get 1 of them. You need 3 weeks to get 2 rare resources that way (and be left with 1 Wood and 1 Ore).
Quote:
Adding External Ore mines and Lumber mills (provided to you on almost every map, you can't count something that is provided to you in such a way as an external factor, even more if we speak of prices of other buildings whitout mentioning these factors.)
And that's what I explicitely didn't do: include external sources. We were considering the town to be self-sufficient, which by definition exludes all other sources than the town itself.
By what you and JJ are suggesting, you need to have 1 or 2 Gold Mines with each town to get your economy on the rails. Those Gold Mines will then fall into the same ballpark as the Sawmill and Ore Pit - which is exactly what Chris and I are argueing: if they're essential to a level that they're required, they can be considered as a given, belonging to that town. So, I think we mean to say the same, but look at it from a different angle.
Quote:
When he builds a dwelling he has to buy those creatures, use them and RISK them. They are not self-replacing for free, like the gold you put into your capitol, once you loose a creature it is gone forever. BTW there is your risk, your investment, in geting a gold mine. You invest resources for the dwellings, mage guilds, gold for the creatures and the creatures to get it. It is much harder to get a gold mine then a Capitol.
I disagree. No player will attack the guards when there's a chance on a pyrrhic victory. You will only attack them when you are certain you're going to defeat them, with relatively little losses on your side. I highly doubt that you will lose 10,000 Gold worth of creatures to capture them, let alone suffer the corresponding set back from such an army reduction on your side. Yes, I am argueing that capturing the Gold Mine has a lower risk, because you can choose when to capture it, whereby postponing it somewhat will reduce your losses once you do.
Quote:
Once you have a Capitol, you have a steady income of 28k for a week. And your charts show that in many cases not even a fully developed town COST so much to recruit, They actually generate profit.
This goes out the window, however, as soon as you start adding more Towns to your kingdom. The Capitol is only able to support a single town in the Heroes3 example. As soon as you have 2 Towns, fully developed, you can't purchase all creatures anymore without external resources (regardless of whether they're one-time-only, or static every turn).
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 04, 2015 04:15 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 16:15, 04 Feb 2015.
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Stevie said:
Maurice said:
Like I argued in my post above, you are bound to gravitate to creatures that don't die as easily. When you have enough money to buy 1 creature with 100 Hitpoints versus 10 creatures of 10 Hitpoints, which are otherwise equal in strength, you will buy the single one with 100 Hitpoints. After all, assuming the stack survives the battle, any attack that deals 90 damage would reduce the latter stack to one creature of 10 hitpoints for the rest of the game (reducing it to 1/10th of its power), while the stack with the one creature of 100 Hitpoints will remain and be at 100 Hitpoints for the next battle.
Problem is you won't have enough money, not from your Capitol. And if you're making a point out of 10 creatures with 10 hp and 1 creature with 100 hp you must be playing the wrong game, because that's just the basic concept of creature Tier.
Then I choose to buy the 2 Champion Tiers, the 4 Elite Tiers, and the best of the Cores. Even if it takes investment, the Elites and Champions have a far greater survivability and hence are less likely to suffer casualties - and thereby have stack power permanently reduced. This in turn makes 5 Cores redundant as the game develops - which immediately reverts to the question of planning ahead; why take the effort of building all 6 Core buildings before moving on to Elites and then Champions?
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted February 04, 2015 04:18 PM |
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Dave
If you want to feel like you achieved something special by being able to finance the economy then make the town hall cost 5k, city hall 20k and the capitol 40k gold? Feeling hard enough to achieve?
I don't understand this sudden need to have a constant stuggle with the economy. Previously it was enough of an achievement if you could get week1 wyverns or behemoth or titans. Now THAT was an achievement.
That is why I mentioned the Azure Dragon as an achievemnent.
If you want to introduce an economic elememt to the game then let's do it but not by restricting the player but by having more opportunity to spend that cash.
Lets say that H2 style villages returned instead of forts. They would earn you 500 gold. You could upgrade those to the current forts for 10K and they would earn you 1K gold. Or you could spend 20K+20wood+ore and get a town without a fort building that could earn you what a normal town can. It would have gotten rid of the stupid town convertion and would have given you a new goal to achieve, prompting you to expand faster.
This combined with multiple dwellings on the map and more common artifact merchant are more than enough things to concentrate on.
As for the number of creatures recruitabe question, I kind of lean towards a 5/5/3 sytem where you could still only recruit 3/3/1.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 04, 2015 04:22 PM |
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I wasn't much of a fan of H2's pacing, admittedly.
Too much waiting around before even thinking of attempting to take on ranged mine guards.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted February 04, 2015 04:27 PM |
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4/4/2 because 42 is the answer to all life. 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 04, 2015 04:30 PM |
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Avirosb said:
The WoW character? What she got to do with Ashan?
a lot if Ubisoft gets to decide...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted February 04, 2015 04:40 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Avirosb said:
The WoW character? What she got to do with Ashan?
a lot if Ubisoft gets to decide...
Like that is even a question.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2015 04:42 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:45, 04 Feb 2015.
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Maurice said:
Stevie said:
Problem is you won't have enough money, not from your Capitol. And if you're making a point out of 10 creatures with 10 hp and 1 creature with 100 hp you must be playing the wrong game, because that's just the basic concept of creature Tier.
Then I choose to buy the 2 Champion Tiers, the 4 Elite Tiers, and the best of the Cores. Even if it takes investment, the Elites and Champions have a far greater survivability and hence are less likely to suffer casualties - and thereby have stack power permanently reduced.
That's the end-game army composition, requiring hundreds of thousands of gold invested in building and then a daily income of over 4000. So unless you want to go bankrupt with only internal income, you have to flag some mines and get external income - which is one of the point because economy acts as a regulator.
Maurice said:
This in turn makes 5 Cores redundant as the game develops
Note, as the game develops. Nothing different from other iterations. It's just how fodder is.
Maurice said:
- which immediately reverts to the question of planning ahead; why take the effort of building all 6 Core buildings before moving on to Elites and then Champions?
That depends on how you imagine the building prerequisites. I personally thought of minimum 2 Core dwellings to open Elite, then minimum 4 Core/Elite to open Champion.
And one thing is misunderstood is that you have to be able to get max dwellings and recruitment. Not at all.
Another one is that you have to make Cores relevant for the late game. False, Heroes 6 went in that direction and it was a disaster. Cores are important already. They are your creeping tools for the early and middle game. So creeping with only 1 Core anticipating Elites/Champions will most likely be more inefficient in the long run than creeping with 3 or 4.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 04, 2015 05:47 PM |
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Maurice said:
I disagree. No player will attack the guards when there's a chance on a pyrrhic victory. You will only attack them when you are certain you're going to defeat them, with relatively little losses on your side. I highly doubt that you will lose 10,000 Gold worth of creatures to capture them, let alone suffer the corresponding set back from such an army reduction on your side. Yes, I am argueing that capturing the Gold Mine has a lower risk, because you can choose when to capture it, whereby postponing it somewhat will reduce your losses once you do.
Well in that case Heroes II is not a heroes game since there you have to calculate with loses, it is part of the game. Also the difference is you don't loose the goled with the capitol, it will come back, with 0 effort. And About the choice... WEll technically you have the choice to built capitol later.. still you don't. That not a choice.. And I dislike when a game makes choices instead of me.
Maurice said:
It's 5 days of set-back in early game. I would say that's a MAJOR setback, where another player is investing that cash into creatures to defeat the map. As time passes, the setback gets smaller, until it's low-risk building it.
So you deffend the Capitol by saing, that for 5 days it makes the game a challange.. why do you then dislike, giving the game a generally more chalanging appeal?
Maurice said:
By what you and JJ are suggesting, you need to have 1 or 2 Gold Mines with each town to get your economy on the rails. Those Gold Mines will then fall into the same ballpark as the Sawmill and Ore Pit - which is exactly what Chris and I are argueing: if they're essential to a level that they're required, they can be considered as a given, belonging to that town. So, I think we mean to say the same, but look at it from a different angle.
Well generally speaking it is common that an area of a player has 1 of each rare resourcess. But it doesn't have to have gold mines, sincce even whitout them a faction is playable. These can be put in "common parts of the map" or substituded by other forms like skills, objects, artifacts etc.
Quote:
This goes out the window, however, as soon as you start adding more Towns to your kingdom. The Capitol is only able to support a single town in the Heroes3 example. As soon as you have 2 Towns, fully developed, you can't purchase all creatures anymore without external resources (regardless of whether they're one-time-only, or static every turn).
The problem is. You more oftten have more externnal sourcess then neutral towns.
Example Warlords a well known 3 map has only 8 castles and the map is for 8 players
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 04, 2015 06:26 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:46, 04 Feb 2015.
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You shouldn't even think of having more than one town as an argument. Even if every town could build a Capitol, they would still feel uncomfortable if that didn't allowed them to recruit a week's worth of units with internal income only.
Edit: No article for today either?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted February 04, 2015 06:46 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 18:47, 04 Feb 2015.
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Stevie said:
You shouldn't even think of having more than one town as an argument. Even if every town could build a Capitol, they would still feel uncomfortable if that didn't allowed them to recruit a week's worth of units with internal income only.
Edit: No article for today either?
I need new article! 
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Hex
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 04, 2015 06:48 PM |
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Don't worry, we will get something until 7:15 CET 
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Hex
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 04, 2015 06:57 PM |
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There you go:
https://mmh7.ubi.com/pl/blog/post/view/the-city-of-the-spider-cult
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 04, 2015 07:00 PM |
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The Spiderpolis is real, wtf
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted February 04, 2015 07:02 PM |
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Not for greenphobic people 
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
