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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 25, 2015 12:46 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
You sure don't miss any opportunity to make a joke on Erwan  Why so much negativity, buddy?
though most of my jibes and jokes are little more than superficial potshots, and although I recognise it's foolish to lay blame for patterned disappointments at one individual's doorstep wherever the subjects are massive AAA projects with so many factors involved,
I legitimately believe Erwin is the figure most culpable for what I subjectively consider the ongoing irremediable dilution of the Might and Magic brand and (again subjectively) the unprecedented catastrophe that was Heroes 6, and that the franchise would genuinely fare better without his input going forward
lol
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 01:02 AM |
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Overall I'd say they shouldn't scrap ashan.
I mean yes it has its problems,but imagine what could happen if they actually started a new universe?There is always room for getting worse.
Besides I'd say that Ashan itself isn't bad,rather its the way they handle it.
I mean lets look at some of the more common complaints:
Religion
I agree that this is overrepresented.Sure it is ok if the different factions have different religions,but not everyone is going around in the name of their god and so on.They could simply tone down the religious aspects of the factions(since there are very often years between the games and that the general attitude about religion can vary from place to place it'd be no problem if the faction was for once not all about their god).
I mean the haven in this game still worships elrath,but not every haven unit is full with pictures of him.
Races for different factions
The different races for the factions isn't something bad in my opinion,it adds a bit more diversity into them,I mean it is simply boring if every faction is full of humans(something I didn't like about H6-inferno).
Although I think it'd be a good thing if the hero line-ups get a bit more mixed,I mean that was one of the reasons why I liked Maximus of the haven town quite a bit,simply because he was an orc.
It isn't even very limiting in terms of town-variety considering that we'll get medusas in the dungeon despite the fact that they are naga.
As long as they don't overdo it with the races(like they did with H5 fortress) it is ok to me.
Humans take the plot
I agree that some other races should take the center of the plot from time to time(although this isn't a problem really connected to ashan,I mean the H6 expansion had no problems with campaigns that had nothing to do with the heaven faction and in H5 it were mostly the wizards that saved the day)
9 faction limit
Many people here also seem to be under impression that Ashan limits the possibilities for factions,but I disagree.Ashan is a fricking world and there are sometimes hundreds of years between some games,so it wouldn't be weird for a new faction to pop up simply because it never played a role during these times/at these places.
Sure there is the dragon god thingy and their own races,but the wizards created lots of different races,which is easily able to handwave the existence of new races(not to mention that some races can potentially work for different factions,I mean humans are the main race for academy,haven and necropolis,while elves are the main race for dungeon and sylvan)
It is too restricting when it comes to unit design,just look at h7-necro!
again i disagree,while they reused the necro units,it has nothing to do with ashan and more with money.Also while ashan tries to remain consistent with their designs(for example all vampires look young) it is always a possibility to simply create a different subgroup of certain units to justify a major change in appearance(for example on the H7-site they mention the monstrous akhkharu-vampires)
Its always a demon horde coming
Well considering that demons are not part of the game,they won't invade this time.I hope that they tone down the demons as the main threat in future games too.
Asha has 6 dragon gods,but Urgash has none,how unfair!
Actually the "discover Inferno"-article mentions that Urgash created demon gods,who each had a champion(ahribban from H6 is one of these champions),it is just that the demons seem to be rather unified in their loyalty to urgash anyway.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 25, 2015 01:22 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 01:22, 25 Jan 2015.
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Greenlore said:
and in H5 it were mostly the wizards that saved the day)
You do not have to save the day for the entire plot to revolve around you. Haven has been at the center of the plot in all Ashan games there is not one event that does not lead back to them somehow they are even at the center of the map. I would for once like to see events some where else in the world that do not involve Haven as the main driving force, and I do not think we will get that in Ashan.
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Pavijan
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 02:55 AM |
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After witnessing this H7 Necropolis fiasco and being reminded of retarded liches and their even more idiotic decision to keep them I must repeat this again:
Yes, yes and a hundred times yes! Scrape Ashan! Remove it from drawing table, put all related papers and concepts on one place and burn it in to a big cloud of smoke.
And that return to old HOMM universe. With it's loose lore you can unleash your creativity more freely (hopefully in non-moronic way)...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 08:48 AM |
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The problem isn't Ashan as such. It's the fact that there is no change. The "factions" are too static. There is no development.
You could do that in Ashan as well: we had already two potential changing events, the Void and the Dark Messiah, both have done nothing so far - that's the real problem.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 25, 2015 09:33 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 09:43, 25 Jan 2015.
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Pawek_13 said:
Sandro400 said:
I sure like this version more. Where was it revealed? I wanna see the rest changes
But th god that was changed during development, not through retcon.
I got most of this information from Acid Cave but I don't remember the direct link to it.
Here it is
Sandro400 said:
There was a mistake in some card naming, Erwan even acknoledged that in Q&A aaaaand... no one corrected it!
If you are talking about Orcs of Ranaar... I don't think it was a mistake. Black Skull Orcs are clan of Ranaar Orcs and it would be logical to have other Raanar Orcs and not Pao, because Deep Mountains are south of Ranaar Plains and very close to them. Pao Archipelago is far on the south of Deep Mountains.
The problem is that DoC used HoMM6 concept arts of Pao Orcs to illustrate orcs from HoMM5.
Sandro400 said:
Avonu said:
With wings too... which create winds for example.
Do you think Harpies have so powerful wings?!
It's Ashan. 
Sandro400 said:
btw, Akane got hew own bio.
I know but somehow I found original story better:
Quote:
Sayuri: To find No-Shanriya, we had to look to the north and find the hidden reflection, the shadow cast by the city of Naga.
Myranda: I can see a sort of shimmering glimmer of multi-coloured light. It must be the gate.
Sayuri: Myranda was right. The strange light was not a mirage but a magical reflection, an enchanted threshold. Inside was the mirror image of Shanriya.
That which was up was now down. Black was white, light was dark... I was immediately ill at ease, as if I had foreseen that...
Akane: Sayuri-Sama. I am happy to see you again. You have found a way to come to me. Welcome my sister, welcome to No-Shanriya...
Sayuri: I didn't think I would find her. Anyone but her, not Akane...
Akane: Sayuri, have you lost the ability to speak? Too much emotion no doubt... Our destinies are intertwined. I knew we would find each other. We have a mission to accomplish.
You do not understand, Sayuri. The universe is angry. Creation is imperfect. It must be destroyed. Remove all that was, erase all that could have been.
Vein?: Out of the question! Like those before you, you shall taste the icy grasp of the True Death!
(battle)
Sayuri: Forgive me, dear sister... You died the day you yielded to the Void... To save me... Akane... May the Dragon Gods have pity on you...
These few words tell more about Akane, her motives and personality, then a huge wall of text in link above.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 09:55 AM |
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I'm of the opinion that, if Ashan were to be scrapped, it shouldn't be some unceremonious reboot to a new universe. Maybe it's just because I entered the series at H4, but at worst, I'd like a "To all things comes an end (...) A blinding flash! Another turn of the page..." transition. Maybe some kind of Götterdämmerung scenario combined with Urgash physically breaking out of Sheogh and the world being destroyed in the process. Nice job breaking it, Sareth! (Fanbase: INDEED!  )
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 25, 2015 10:25 AM |
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Kimarous said:
I'm of the opinion that, if Ashan were to be scrapped, it shouldn't be some unceremonious reboot to a new universe. Maybe it's just because I entered the series at H4, but at worst, I'd like a "To all things comes an end (...) A blinding flash! Another turn of the page..." transition. Maybe some kind of Götterdämmerung scenario combined with Urgash physically breaking out of Sheogh and the world being destroyed in the process. Nice job breaking it, Sareth! (Fanbase: INDEED! )
I've always said that I am in favor of pulling a Heroes4 and using the Dark Messiah as an excuse.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 25, 2015 12:18 PM |
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Avonu said:
Here it is
Thanks, cool text indeed.
Avonu said:
The problem is that DoC used HoMM6 concept arts of Pao Orcs to illustrate orcs from HoMM5.
Exactly, that was what I was talking about.
Avonu said:
These few words tell more about Akane, her motives and personality, then a huge wall of text in link above.
Tastes differ I think She still had a sibling in new version though, Noboru, but they didn't even meet (what a shame).
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 12:24 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The problem isn't Ashan as such. It's the fact that there is no change. The "factions" are too static. There is no development.
You could do that in Ashan as well: we had already two potential changing events, the Void and the Dark Messiah, both have done nothing so far - that's the real problem.
You don't necessarily need major events to explain Liches becoming skeletal. It's just unwillingness from Erwan to actually do changes. He wants to keep his lore "different" even if that means totally silly and ridiculous lore.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 12:40 PM |
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Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
The problem isn't Ashan as such. It's the fact that there is no change. The "factions" are too static. There is no development.
You could do that in Ashan as well: we had already two potential changing events, the Void and the Dark Messiah, both have done nothing so far - that's the real problem.
You don't necessarily need major events to explain Liches becoming skeletal. It's just unwillingness from Erwan to actually do changes. He wants to keep his lore "different" even if that means totally silly and ridiculous lore.
And you know what is the funniest thing? In the silverback's description Kaspar mentions some lich "in an advanced state of decay", whose femur bone the aformentioned silverback stole. That means that there ARE liches who are at least partially sceletal
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 12:53 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:55, 25 Jan 2015.
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That's just a poke at best, since "advance state of decay" doesn't necessarily mean skeletal. And what would a Silverback do with a Lich's femur, pick his teeth? Have you seen its size?
In the end, even the best reference for a Skeletal Lich is insufficient if the Necro line-up doesn't have skeletal liches.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 12:57 PM |
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What's missing are real "shakeups". I mean, do we really want the next 10 HoMM games being a "6 out of 9" for initial release, getting all or part of the others with one or more DLCs? Minor variations in racial abilities, town development, spells, skills, hero types? Visiting various points of interest in Holy Empire's glorious history?
What's the use of that?
I, at least, want CHANGE. REAL change - otherwise, why bother?
I mean, why DOES HoMM 7 feel so much like HoMM 6? Right, because nothing really changed, it's the same setup. And if you look at Heroes Online - even with Hex battlefield: same setup.
It's just BORING this way.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 12:59 PM |
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Stevie said:
In the end, even the best reference for a Skeletal Lich is insufficient if the Necro line-up doesn't have skeletal liches.
Yes, that's what I meant - they have sceletal liches but for whatever reason they don't want to make ingame liches sceletal
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2015 01:18 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Btw, IP-team failed with DoC several times...
I'm curious, which ones are you referring to?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 01:28 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I, at least, want CHANGE. REAL change - otherwise, why bother?
I mean, why DOES HoMM 7 feel so much like HoMM 6? Right, because nothing really changed, it's the same setup. And if you look at Heroes Online - even with Hex battlefield: same setup.
It's just BORING this way.
I agree with this. But the reason H7 is so similar than H6 is a bit diferent I belive. Real reason is beacuse Ubi (or Erwan or whoever) thinks that the CORE of H6 was good. H7 is basicaly second atempt at this H6 universe. H7 is the REAL H6 in a sense. Atleast this is the feeling I get from the direction this game is taking. They want to make H6 work.
I don't know if anyone played it, but back in the 1999, there was a game called Unreal Tournament. In 2003, they made UT2003, and it was utter dissapointment. After a year they released UT2004, which was the same in all regards, but it had way more content and balance fixes, as well as better moding support and better matchmaking. It was a huge success. Altho there were still old fans who hated it coz of art design and powerup system etc. They did not like the core.
It is the same here I belive. H7 is HoMM's atempt at being "UT2004" The situation I see is very similar imo.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 25, 2015 02:00 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What's missing are real "shakeups".
I, at least, want CHANGE. REAL change - otherwise, why bother?
I mean, why DOES HoMM 7 feel so much like HoMM 6? Right, because nothing really changed, it's the same setup. And if you look at Heroes Online - even with Hex battlefield: same setup.
I, for once, like Ashan's stability. And yet even with 9 core factions they manage to do them different (lore-wise, gameplay, imo, shouldn't be discussed here) and even make sub-factions within them. Changes will come after Dark Messiah I think
It feels like H6 'cos it looks like H6. Yeah, just that. And HO too looks like H6 in terms of units, they're reusing models.
Elvin said:
I'm curious, which ones are you referring to?
Using Pao orcs art for illustrating Ranaar orcs.
The mess with creature categories and magic schools (I made a huge post on official forums back in the day, collecting all errors with categories aaand still nothing change).
Using Okane-no-Okane, which is unique creature lore-wise, as common card while all others uniques are unique.
Using in flavor texts names of characters that never appear anywhere else.
But my main complain goes to creature categories.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 06:10 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 18:22, 26 Jan 2015.
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i never understood ubisofts vision about balance & undead.
to me, being undead means breaking the balance of life and death, therefore breaking order itself. when i look like this i see necropolis as one of the main enemies to nature, animated souless hosts of living, corrupted dead trees, badlands... the immortaly being achieved by power hungry mages.. thats what i call necropolis..
all gods wants servents can obey and able to die when they are siners, so i cant grasp this religion idea too. even if there should be a god/goddess creating undead, it should either totally enslave them to use as a tool, or it should not want anything from them in return, since they will be free from order...
and about fate...
how come someone beyond limits of life, or control of gods, can be target of fate? or so to say, under infiluence of fate..
no sickness, no masters, no limited life-time... if theres one againts the fate concept, it is necromencers, and probably thats why i like them.
but.. why a goddess of fate involves himself in battles of creation? ...worlds, even whole universe have a limited part to play in existance. also, arent conflicts exist for good and evil? arent they exist for some foreseen roles? isnt this fate is all about? everything supposed to play some part and step down from life stage when their part is done... so how come undead and fate goddess even related to each other?
about fusion of fate, creation and concept of undead...
i dont get how come these 3 are domains of one single goddess. if you create you gave life, and giving life has a purpose, has some kind of fate. if you also gave them powers of undead then what is the point of life? or what is the point of fate?
no matter how much i try to accept this ashan concepts, i fail.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 06:33 PM |
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I think this text may help you understand more about Ubi Necro. Just one thing to add - it's Necro themselves who think they're guardians of Balance. No one made them as such, and Asha (the real Asha, not Mother Namtaru) doesn't give a crap about them. And yes, iirc Vein called the Undead "a hole in Asha's work" just like Orcs etc.
------------
The Necromancers
"Life is chaos, filth and suffering. Death is peace, order, everlasting beauty."
Just what is a Necromancer? Where did they come from? What are their needs, their aspirations? Is there an order among the ranks of the undead?
Let us begin at the traditional place...
While the beginnings of many things are lost in the mists of time -- or at least misfiled upon the shelves of time -- the Necromancers of Heresh have a recorded history that has been well-documented.
Ahhh, documents! Timeless, ageless records that permit the wisdom and experiences of a people to be archived and managed, perused and discussed, as timeless and unchanging as Death itself... Necromancers without lore, Necromancers without a history, is a notion that is fundamentally impossible. For Necromancers are to a soul (which, yes, they do have) thinkers, philosophers, and seekers of wisdom and understanding. Their biggest problem, of course, is deciding when to end a debate; debates can go on forever when the debaters are deathless.
But on to the specifics.
As with many things that concern magic, necromancy began as part of the legacy of Sar-Elam, the great wizard who became the Seventh Dragon. His most gifted disciple was Sar-Shazzar, who went on to carve his own place in history.
Sar-Shazzar himself had a talented student, named Belketh.
In an age when the world was young and vibrant and much of magic was in doing, building, and experimenting, Belketh was a thinker and philosopher. Fascinated with the principles and passages of death -- must we all? do we all? where does the soul go? what exactly ends with death, and what begins? -- Belketh turned less and less to the teachings of his master and more and more to his own reflections and investigations.
At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.
Belketh was struck by the conviction that this countenance of Asha, though it was least understood and most feared, was all-embracing and all-encompassing.
For Asha, the goddess who created the world that bears her name, is all facets of the wheel of existence; the triple-faced figure of birth, life and death.
She is the Faceless Maiden, Destiny's herald, stitching here and there, unseen, to make sure that all the living creatures fulfill their purpose.
She is the Mother, who regards all things as her creation and her children. By giving birth, she set chaos into form and gives meaning to potential.
She is the Crone, wizened and old, who snips the web of life, with a sickle held in gnarled fingers, when the time has come.
The fateful text of the Revelations that Belketh read referred to this third image of Asha as the most powerful, holding sway over the works of the other two. From the rituals and the insights in this document Belketh gleaned two elements that would influence the development of the Necromancers.
One was the image of Asha as a spider, spinning the web of life, administering death through her mandibles when one's allotted time was up.
The other was the temptation of the alternative to life; death was not an end, merely a transformation. The petty desires and needs of the flesh, the destructive passions of the heart, the unreasoning decisions of the brain that piloted this mass of humours and conflicts -- death was the answer to all of that, the reduction of existence to its purest and most changeless form.
All agree that this fragment of the original text is at the origin of the Necromantic Kingdom of Heresh. After this point of agreement, however, all else diverges. On one side are the Necromancers, convinced that this fragment is the core and the essence of the teachings of Asha, and that the rest are dead ends, half-truths, and traps for the gullible and unwary. The other side of the argument, obviously, is that this fragment is necessarily only a part of a greater truth, and that in their dedication to this subset of Her teachings the Necromancers have missed much of Asha's message.
Feel free to debate this with a Necromancer some time, if you have a few decades to spare.
From this point of origin the Necromancers have built a culture and a structure of beliefs, founding a nation that has upon occasion wielded a terrible might.
The Hierarchy of Heresh
To become a lord of the Necromancers is the ideal of all who have chosen this path, though there are many other forms of unlife that have relatively more or less importance. In fact a Necromancer is not necessarily one of the non-living; in particular those who go on embassies to foreign lands are often still in human form. As they gain power, however, they inevitably choose to pass through the portal of death, becoming one of the undead. Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of the sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.
Those who make this passage first become Asakkus, or "Liches", their bodies desiccated but intact, freed from the passions of the flesh to meditate undistracted.
As the decades pass, and they grow in power, they may earn the right to become Akhkharus, or "Vampires". For a Vampire is the most potent incarnation of a once-human form, one of the unliving lords of Heresh who hold sway over both the dead and undead.
Once a Lich ascends to take the form of a Vampire he ages backwards. The longer a Necromancer is undead, the younger and healthier he looks. The ruling council of the Lords of Heresh all appear to be in their mid-twenties, beautiful and unchanging.
Rabisus, or "Ghouls", on the other hand, are distinctly lesser undead. Formed when a Necromancer forces a soul to remain in a dead body, they are trapped between life and death. They are tormented; filled with hatred for the living. Powerful Necromancers can control them, but otherwise they are wild and destructive. Transformation into a ghoul is used as the ultimate punishment in Heresh, and is a means of permanently removing a soul from the cycle of death and transformation.
Zombies and skeletons are the least potent, mere soulless bodies re-animated by death magic. They shamble about following orders, and even the lowliest Necromancer can command them with absolute authority.
Edimmus (ghosts, spectres and wraiths), finally, are disembodied spirits of the dead. They can be trapped, geased, and commanded by sufficiently powerful Necromancers, though in Heresh they are more often used as scouts and allies. Ghosts can barter their services for favors done for their descendants, for deeds done among the living, or for aid in returning to a body -- living or not -- and entering once more into Asha's great cycle.
Those wishing to further study the lore of the Necromancers and the history of Heresh are invited to peruse one of the great libraries of the Silver Cities, perhaps one of those in Qays or Fidaa. The eager student may even travel to Heresh to learn from the source, though those who do so seem, upon their return, to be somewhat altered...
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 26, 2015 06:37 PM |
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Quote:
Death is peace, order, everlasting beauty
Represented among other things by rotten plague-bearers, apparently.
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This thread is pages long: 
