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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 18, 2014 12:43 AM |
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NamelessOrder said:
NACHOOOO said:
At least it shouldn't be terrible by going this route, I still think that it has it's flaws but we'll see how they tweak it.
what are the flaws of standard system?
I've mentioned them a few times throughout this thread but I'll write it again to save you a butt tonne of reading. So in my opinion using the H6 initiative system forces creativity and individuality restrictions on creature creation.
In H5, the initiative values of creatures varied wildly, and while this was a bit bananas, it also allowed for very different play styles of creatures of equal tiers. Compare this to creatures of H6, and because every creature must have the same amount of turns, the "value" of the initiative stat is less, and therefore the stats of equal level creatures is far less varied.
So I can't speak for you, but when I played H6 many of the creatures felt pretty similar from faction to faction.
You'd be hard pressed to make a creature like the H5 Deep Hydra in H6. Something that can regenerate, attack everything around it, has no enemy retaliation and also enraged? It would be very difficult to balance that, even if you were to reduce creature growth, make them more expensive and give them crappy speed it would still be very difficult to make them the big tanky creatures they were.
Another problem I have is how the wait function is used. A creature like Infernos Cerebei is a high attack, good initiative, low defense type. Battle starts, you can choose to put your Cerebei out into the middle of the battlefield to get smashed, so instead you select wait. It then has to wait for almost every other creature to get it's turn before it can fight again. So there's your defenseless puppy taking a pounding from magic, ranged and any melee attacks that are able to reach it before it gets its turn again. Without numbers behind it, the Cerebei becomes pretty crap pretty fast.
On the flip side you have creatures like the Wanizame. If it is the last creature to get it's turn, and often times it will be, then using the wait function does absoloutely nothing. Nothing at all. It's the Wanizames turn straight away again.
Finally it also affects how magic is used. Example, In H6 Haste increased a creatures initiative and the amount of speed that they had, in H5 it only affected their initiative. Yet Haste was more valuable in H5 because of how important the initiative value was, even though the spell did less than it's H6 equivalent.
Because the spell had to have something more to make it worth using in H6, it then limits what other spells you can have.
At least we know that what we're getting is going to be really hard to screw up. I still think we're missing out on an opportunity for a really fun and interesting system though.
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Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 09:15 AM |
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NACHOOOO said:
NamelessOrder said:
NACHOOOO said:
At least it shouldn't be terrible by going this route, I still think that it has it's flaws but we'll see how they tweak it.
what are the flaws of standard system?
I've mentioned them a few times throughout this thread but I'll write it again to save you a butt tonne of reading. So in my opinion using the H6 initiative system forces creativity and individuality restrictions on creature creation.
In H5, the initiative values of creatures varied wildly, and while this was a bit bananas, it also allowed for very different play styles of creatures of equal tiers. Compare this to creatures of H6, and because every creature must have the same amount of turns, the "value" of the initiative stat is less, and therefore the stats of equal level creatures is far less varied.
So I can't speak for you, but when I played H6 many of the creatures felt pretty similar from faction to faction.
You'd be hard pressed to make a creature like the H5 Deep Hydra in H6. Something that can regenerate, attack everything around it, has no enemy retaliation and also enraged? It would be very difficult to balance that, even if you were to reduce creature growth, make them more expensive and give them crappy speed it would still be very difficult to make them the big tanky creatures they were.
Another problem I have is how the wait function is used. A creature like Infernos Cerebei is a high attack, good initiative, low defense type. Battle starts, you can choose to put your Cerebei out into the middle of the battlefield to get smashed, so instead you select wait. It then has to wait for almost every other creature to get it's turn before it can fight again. So there's your defenseless puppy taking a pounding from magic, ranged and any melee attacks that are able to reach it before it gets its turn again. Without numbers behind it, the Cerebei becomes pretty crap pretty fast.
On the flip side you have creatures like the Wanizame. If it is the last creature to get it's turn, and often times it will be, then using the wait function does absoloutely nothing. Nothing at all. It's the Wanizames turn straight away again.
Finally it also affects how magic is used. Example, In H6 Haste increased a creatures initiative and the amount of speed that they had, in H5 it only affected their initiative. Yet Haste was more valuable in H5 because of how important the initiative value was, even though the spell did less than it's H6 equivalent.
Because the spell had to have something more to make it worth using in H6, it then limits what other spells you can have.
At least we know that what we're getting is going to be really hard to screw up. I still think we're missing out on an opportunity for a really fun and interesting system though.
Quite a nice summary of the 11 previous page 
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 01:01 PM |
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NACHOOOO said:
I've mentioned them a few times throughout this thread but I'll write it again to save you a butt tonne of reading.
i've read most of the thread but thanks for this summary (you're right that i'd need to re-read a dozen of pages).
NACHOOOO said:
So in my opinion using the H6 initiative system forces creativity and individuality restrictions on creature creation.
In H5, the initiative values of creatures varied wildly, and while this was a bit bananas, it also allowed for very different play styles of creatures of equal tiers. Compare this to creatures of H6, and because every creature must have the same amount of turns, the "value" of the initiative stat is less, and therefore the stats of equal level creatures is far less varied.
So I can't speak for you, but when I played H6 many of the creatures felt pretty similar from faction to faction.
I'm pretty sure that different stats and abilities can differentiate creatures. Ini is still a very important stat, but, i agree, not as important as in ATB system.
NACHOOOO said:
Another problem I have is how the wait function is used. A creature like Infernos Cerebei is a high attack, good initiative, low defense type. Battle starts, you can choose to put your Cerebei out into the middle of the battlefield to get smashed, so instead you select wait. It then has to wait for almost every other creature to get it's turn before it can fight again. So there's your defenseless puppy taking a pounding from magic, ranged and any melee attacks that are able to reach it before it gets its turn again. Without numbers behind it, the Cerebei becomes pretty crap pretty fast.
I haven't played H5 as much as H6 but i disagree with this.
In ATB, under H5, waiting cost you 0,5 ATB ("half a move") so apart from the first waiting command the wait function bore less relevance than in H6 when waiting didnt cause you to lose attacks but allowed you take advantage of a new sequence of units or other positioning or some abilities. e.g:
- Sanctuary deciding to wait to have it's honor bonuses on when taking blows from opponent, or any unit waiting to still have its defensive buffs on when taking damage from enemies
- many times when playing Haven i used the waiting command to improve my positioning to be able to use Sun Riders effectively or to have an open option to use Glories dispel ability, or while still protecting position with Griffins i wanted to use the dive ability at the end of the turn etc.
- even in my H7 first impressions i gave of an example when wait command might be relevant: Silverback - its ability: Feral Charge will probably work as activated ability that gives you a bonus to damage (and maybe even movement) but will lower your defense until his next turn. If Silverback has high initiative you can take advantage of the Feral Charge – you use the wait command and then attack at the end the turn to move him again in the beginning of the next turn so your opponent cannot take full advantage of decreased defense. With low initiative using his ability might become too risky.
In H5, quite often waiting wasn't worth spending half an action after the first turn. Thus the waiting command was more relevant in H6 ini system than in H5 ATB (ofc you may argue that maybe the "price" of the wait command should be adjusted).
NACHOOOO said:
On the flip side you have creatures like the Wanizame. If it is the last creature to get it's turn, and often times it will be, then using the wait function does absoloutely nothing. Nothing at all. It's the Wanizames turn straight away again.
That's a good point - same with Kirins having 2 "turns" in a row (being the creatuer with the highest ini). On the other hand the system is much easier to learn and understand.
NACHOOOO said:
Finally it also affects how magic is used. Example, In H6 Haste increased a creatures initiative and the amount of speed that they had, in H5 it only affected their initiative. Yet Haste was more valuable in H5 because of how important the initiative value was, even though the spell did less than it's H6 equivalent.
Because the spell had to have something more to make it worth using in H6, it then limits what other spells you can have.
i dont see it that way. Different systems need some readjustments in spells - that's why haste is different in H6 and H5.
On similar note: in standard H6 ini system heroes could have their own move and their own initiative. I dont know if it's a correct decision not to implement a hero turn in the ini bar - just want to point out that this is not against the standard ini system.
NACHOOOO said:
At least we know that what we're getting is going to be really hard to screw up. I still think we're missing out on an opportunity for a really fun and interesting system though.
I can see some advantages of ATB system, believe me i do, but proper implementation would require resources that i dont think will be spent on H7.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 20, 2014 12:03 PM |
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NamelessOrder said:
- many times when playing Haven i used the waiting command to improve my positioning to be able to use Sun Riders effectively or to have an open option to use Glories dispel ability, or while still protecting position with Griffins i wanted to use the dive ability at the end of the turn etc.
...
That's a good point - same with Kirins having 2 "turns" in a row (being the creatuer with the highest ini). On the other hand the system is much easier to learn and understand.
While easier to understand, the above two descriptions are straight-up situations why the H6 system is flawed. "Waiting" essentially mirrors the original line-up, since the "waiting" creatures work from slowest up to fastest. At the edges (slowest and fastest side of the spectrum), this can lead to really skewed gameplay, especially since the fastest creatures are usually also the strongest, the slowest usually being the weakest. So besides the stats they have on their own, "waiting" even compounds this further since the fastest creatures can act twice in a row and the weakest have no use of the "wait" command whatsoever.
To me, that's borderline exploiting (at least, for the fastest creatures).
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 21, 2014 12:35 AM |
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I absolutely agree with Maurice, one of my favourites is to teleport a vampire lord behind castle walls with his can't touch me ability activated and then wait with him.
So my question is how do you change the turn based system to avoid this happening again? Do you make the highest initiative waiting creature act straight after the lowest initiative creature for a 123123 system instead of the 123321 currently used?
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Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 21, 2014 06:08 AM |
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Simultaneous Retaliation.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 21, 2014 09:16 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Simultaneous Retaliation.
That does require some work though. I really hated the simultaneous relations of ranged units in H4. In my opinion, ranged attacks shouldn't suffer a retaliation attack at all. I can live with simultaneous retaliations for melee attacks.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 21, 2014 09:28 AM |
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I wasn't too serious. It's just moving the attention somewhere else. Initiative (and double turns) are important because hitting first ("First Strike") is generally an advantage (the other being the ability to hit something without retaliation at all).
So one way or another, battles center around gaining advantages here.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 21, 2014 11:44 AM |
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And what about spells then? Aren't those in-game to change the flow of battle?
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andy_dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 16, 2014 08:08 PM |
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Neither. I want as much as possible to be like in H4.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 16, 2014 08:20 PM |
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I just like how H5 initiative system works, and to me H6 felt like huge step down. Sure you can argue each has it's own advantages, but I just feel there's much more depth in H5 system ... You have much more control over the battle. Idk - it just feels good to me, and i would wish H7 has similar system.
Now we have flanking and cover in place, which i applaud, but while these feel like one step forward, H6 turn system feels one step back to me.
Simultaneous retaliation is interasting aswell and i feel like it would be great. Ofc. retaliation on archer units should not happen at all.
If it were up to me, I would defenitley have simultaneous retaliation, but, if your troop is attacked from flank or rear, it retaliates normaly... but it's not up to me  .
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Findan
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 01:20 PM |
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I'd love to see h5 initiative system again It can be very useful for my elves and the guerilla style. It is also a good way to underline the speed of the units. Far more natural than 1move-1turn system.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 17, 2015 01:48 PM |
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I'd love to see h5 dynamic battles "as is" or improved, but unfortunately they've already said it would be too much work for them. When h6 came back with the simplistic system it was a huge step backwards to me as it felt like a whole dimension was taken off from battles.
When enemy is big and slow while your are small and fast it would seem natural you can hit more times. If you think of slow units like treants or the new rock-dragon, they are units that should hit a lot less times and move less if you compare them to some pixies or blade-dancers for example. I was actually hoping even more complexity compared to h5, but for their lack of resources they went with simplicity of h6 as they put it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2015 02:13 PM |
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I will surely miss the dynamic system too. Too bad it was completely broken in Heroes 5. But the basic idea behind it makes it easily my most preferred initiative system for TBS games.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 24, 2015 02:04 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:05, 24 Jan 2015.
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I've recently been playing another game that features Turn-Based Combat (Wastelands 2, to be precise). They have a form of ATB as well, even though it only deals about individual units.
The way they implemented it there is to make every action cost a certain amount of Action Points (AP). Each unit has a maximum number of AP, depending on various character attributes (like Coordination, Awareness and Speed). Movement comes at an AP cost, depending on distance traveled and speed of the unit and can be cut up in as many individual steps as remaining APs allow. Each weapon has a main firing mode, which costs a certain amount of AP, depending on the weapon. Some weapons have multiple fire modes, each costing a different amount of AP to use. If a unit has left-over AP when they end their turn, 1 or 2 points get carried over as a bonus into their next turn. Besides that, a unit can get a bonus "lucky" AP, if they got lucky at the start of their turn. That way, a unit may have a varying amount of AP when their turn comes up, to perform actions. Sometimes, those bonus APs may allow a unit to fire once more during their turn.
Ranking on the ATB comes at the form of an Initiative statistic, which depends both on unit speed and awareness. While units can take up an "Ambush" stance, which costs a certain amount of AP, they cannot "wait". While in "Ambush" mode, they will try and attack the very first opponent that takes an action within the attack range of the equipped weapon, giving them a pre-emptive strike on that unit before it can move or attack itself.
Having played through the game, it's actually very elegant and smooth and in my opinion, something similar might work here too.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2015 02:27 PM |
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted January 25, 2015 12:41 AM |
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H5 initiative system was very imbalanced. So be it as in H2,3 or 6!
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted February 26, 2015 01:52 PM |
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A week ago i took part in conversation on initiative system on Heroes 7 - Discussion thread which started after reading this:
Quote:
9. WAIT
The wait order moves a creature back in the initiative bar, for the turn. Creature with higher initiative (the slowest) will wait longer than those with low initiative. Fast creature will then always act before slow ones. Each creature can only wait once a turn. This has a critical impact on how to manage enemy retaliations.
source: https://mmh7.ubi.com/en/blog/post/view/battles-in-heroes-vii
I think this is very poorly written and just confuses players that aren't acquainted with the basic principles of turn based initiative bar (H3 or H6 unlike active time battle ATB system in H5). Speed (the words slow and fast) has nothing to do with initiative (unless we are going to H3 system which merged speed and initiative into one stat but that would be a bad simplification) so whether the creature is fast or slow doesn't effect its place on the bar. Since i possess a rather adequate understanding of the system i disregarded this part but clearly some people will be perplexed.
Anyhow i asked the following question:
"The last creature to move during the previous turn was an Attacker's creature and then in the new turn we have 2 creatures with the same and highest initiative (one from Attacker and one from Defender) - so which one starts the new turn? From Defender (following the one player after another principle) or from Attacker (following the Attacker first principle)."
And i decided later to investigate the issue in the Hotseat mode. I will try to present it so i will be clearer for everyone.
Rules that governs sequence of units on the initiative bar (only sb with the access to the game code can tell you for sure, i'm telling you from my experience in H6); in order of importance:
1. higher initiative first
2. one player after another
3. during the 1st turn: 1st creature to start, if 2 units with the highest ini, have the same ini, then attacker (=host) always moves first, after the 1st turn: the opposite side from the side that has a creature that was the last on the initiative bar during the normal phase (not during the waiting phase). If the creature dies during the waiting phase, then it doesnt effect the 1st creature to take a move.
4. creature that is positioned first from the top of the map (applies to creatures within the same army)
5. creature that is positioned to the left (applies to creatures within the same army)
the waiting phase follows a simple rule: a->b->c will become c->b->a after waiting and it's not disturbed by one player after another principle.
In the waiting phase the spell: slow works - it moves a creature back in the line so it can move faster but the spell: haste doesn't work. I find it hard to explain but since H6 was so buggy it could be simply a programming error.
Please see the image:
I put the initiative values above the units so you can check it for yourself.
Let's check the sequence of the units from the picture:
1. Vamps have the same ini as Glories but they will start at the very beginning of the battle since the Necropolis player is the attacker
2. Vamps will move first in the following turns as long as Haven unit is the last on the initiative bar (Vestals in our example).
3. Weavers have the same ini as Angels but they move ahead of them following 1 player after another principle (Weavers move after Glories).
4. After Angels, Griffins move since they are at the same position from the top as Crusaders but they are more to the left (it took me some time to finally decipher that)
5. Ghouls are the only creature with 35 ini so they have to be placed in their position
6. I positioned Liches and Lamasus to once again indicate the small subtleties of the sequence. Both units have the same ini but since first from the top rule is more important than first from the left, they move first.
8. Finally we have 3 last units with same same ini: 25. Praetorians have to move first following one player after another rule (they are ahead of Vestals since they are more to the left). Then Skeletons and finally Vestal.
9. Since Vestals are the last unit, following one player after another Vamps will always start even though they have they same ini as Glories.
10. If we were to kill off Praetorians then the last units order would be: Lamasu -> Vestals -> Skeletons -> new turn -> Glories -> Vampires
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To my initial question I got two answers. I will try to respond to them here:
ThatRedSarah said:
I dont think the previous turns have an effect on the next one. The "following the one player after another principle" doesnt chain the phases (basic turns -> waiting creatures -> next basic turn and so on) together, it is resolved each time separately. The "Attacker first principle" restarts after each turn so it would be attacker first every time (except when waiting, because its reversed).
So now we know that the last creature effects the starting creature in the next turn. The reason i wasn't sure about it was that i thought that it might be the last creature having the move during the waiting phase. It's not the case since it is the last creature in the normal phase excluding the units that moved after waiting.
Limbic-Jaelle said:
from the logical, the attacker has to start. The sorting of defender and attacker only counts, if you sort creatures with the same initiative.
after asking for some clarification:
Limbic-Jaelle said:
Okay, it seems like I don`t get the question - did you misunderstood attacker and defender as you as a player and the opposite player/enemy?
If yes - that's not what I meant. I meant offensive and defensive creatures.
If you have two creatures with the same initiative - one is an offensive creature, the other one is a defensive creature - then the offensive creature will turn first. If you let both wait, then the defensive creature will strike first. If both of those got their actions, the turn is done and round two starts.
I dunno what to think about the answers - i don't think there will be sth like " offensive creature" and i think that Jaelle simply messed sth up or read sth wrongly.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 26, 2015 03:49 PM |
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Impressive stuff Nameless 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 26, 2015 06:09 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 00:16, 28 Feb 2015.
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My best initiative bar would be something like H6, however, randomize those of equal initiative rather than attacker > defender and above > below crap, but also...
Hm. How to correctly put it in words.
Give the ability to act with any units that's currently on the wait list. I suppose something like that would be in the shape of a small button with a short, 5 seconds or so time limit to press, that would enable every units on the waiting list to have a chance to do their action, from the highest to lowest initiative.
If not, a good old initiative system where there aren't any fix rounds whatsoever with units acting twice as often as others cuz they re so quick is also pretty fun and wild.
Edit : What would also be nice is another button beside guard, one that would grant you more initiative for the next round rather than an increased defense.
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This thread is pages long: 
