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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 04:52 PM |
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Adding/subtracting percentages to initiative is wrong anyway.
Flat adding/subtracting keeps things under control a lot better.
Of course this means that spells don't need to affect each other - the effects simply add/subtract up.
Which means, it's a completely moot point - for ALL spells, mind you.
There is also the question of Dispel, Purge, Cleanse.
My opinion is, these spells are crap, because they spoil the fun. Undoing things is always a spoiler.
On the other hand, being somewhat helpless against opponent's spells is no fun either. So imo, these spells need drastic work - for one, their cost should depend on the cost of the spell(s) they nullify (and nullifying TWO or even more spells should cost FOR EACH); one option was, Cost of Nullifying spell PLUS cost of spell(s) nullified. Second, I would like to see spell-nullifying having effects - for example, it might make casting more or less expensive, units suffering from a dispel might get more vulnerable or immune against spells, and so on.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 04:58 PM |
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Well, dispel, purge and the like are something akin to a reset button, and while that might not be fun for some, it definitely has it's use.
But I do agree that there should be some other effects for each of them to make things a bit more interesting and varied.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 12, 2014 05:41 PM |
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Depending on how the magic system is build you could solve the Disspell dilema simply by using spell power to determine the spells strength. Treating like an accelerator of other spell duration.
Example: If I play a Blind spell, with my SP equal to 6 (making the its duration 6 turns), and my opponent tries to disspell it with SP of 4 (reducing it's duration by 4 turns) the result would be, that the unit would be blindid for 2 turns.
But this would only work if the magic system would be based on the H2-5 one.
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 05:47 PM |
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Dispel is already a crap spell, why would you want to make it worse?
If your opponent spends all his time casting buffs and debuffs, and you spend all your time dispelling them, you're behind. They got some amount of benefit from their buffs and debuffs between when they cast them and you dispelled them, and you got nothing.
Dispelling should be like Healing III in King's Bounty Armored Princess - you get a modest benefit (a small heal), and you get rid of the bad effects on your unit, and it's almost free. Anything worse than that just isn't even worth the casting time in most cases.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 05:54 PM |
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I don't think that's good, because it would make the spells completely useless for Might heroes.
Also, higher costs based on difference in spell power, would have the same problem: things woukd be extremely expensive for Might heroes, same effect.
HoMM-5-like Init could solve that problem by adding on Initiative loss for dispel efforts by heroes with inferior power - would make them lose more init, but that would mean, Heroes had their own place to act, like in HoMM 5.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 05:56 PM |
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Hobo2 said:
Dispel is already a crap spell, why would you want to make it worse?
If your opponent spends all his time casting buffs and debuffs, and you spend all your time dispelling them, you're behind. They got some amount of benefit from their buffs and debuffs between when they cast them and you dispelled them, and you got nothing.
Dispelling should be like Healing III in King's Bounty Armored Princess - you get a modest benefit (a small heal), and you get rid of the bad effects on your unit, and it's almost free. Anything worse than that just isn't even worth the casting time in most cases.
Not so. If you are a Might hero with better Might stats and you dispel your opponent's spells you WERE ahead, passively, and you keep being ahead actively.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 12, 2014 06:30 PM |
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Hobo2 said:
Dispelling should be like Healing III in King's Bounty Armored Princess - you get a modest benefit (a small heal), and you get rid of the bad effects on your unit, and it's almost free. Anything worse than that just isn't even worth the casting time in most cases.
Pretty much like Life 2nd level spell in H4 Cure.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted October 12, 2014 06:46 PM |
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What I truly believe in is: modernizing the battle feel of the units.
What I really want to see is a true battle happening before your very eyes showing the attack and defense prowess of each type of units currently locked in an inevitable battle.
When the sword is swung towards the enemy, seeing the the defending unit that has a good and sturdy shields actually putting in a true defending position then, seeing the sword bounce off of it with no damage being dealt to themselves. Simulteanously seeing the defending one doing its retaliation blow right away + seeing the attacking unit being damaged-hurt in return for being way too slow at intercepting the returned attack. Or, if the defender is too slow at defending itself, seeing the shield lowered and, not realizing the immediate situation it is currently in.
Other than that, turn wise is the best way at planning the next tactical move. Not seeing the results as numeral assessment of the battle but, instead, seeing it graphically via the visual action of it all. After a while you get to know which of the units should be moving right-a-way both on your side and onto the enemy's side just by recogninyzing them upon arrival on the battlefield + where theses units get to be positionned and why.
All that the ATB does, is to tell me when the next enemy unit is about to move and, then, work on that first one; Later on, in the same battlefield conflict, work at crushing down the biggest unit of the enemy's line-up.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 12, 2014 06:56 PM |
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I don't know, I think it's nice to see order of your units turns but I don't like that you see the opponent's too. You could still see his turns, but creatures should be masked at least, so you'd have to guess.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 12, 2014 07:19 PM |
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Galaad said:
I don't know, I think it's nice to see order of your units turns but I don't like that you see the opponent's too. You could still see his turns, but creatures should be masked at least, so you'd have to guess.
This is unnecessary difficulty. Creatures' turns are based on initiative, so you can easily identify who will act first etc. That useless addition will lead only to more "hardcore".
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 07:26 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Hobo2 said:
Dispel is already a crap spell, why would you want to make it worse?
If your opponent spends all his time casting buffs and debuffs, and you spend all your time dispelling them, you're behind. They got some amount of benefit from their buffs and debuffs between when they cast them and you dispelled them, and you got nothing.
Dispelling should be like Healing III in King's Bounty Armored Princess - you get a modest benefit (a small heal), and you get rid of the bad effects on your unit, and it's almost free. Anything worse than that just isn't even worth the casting time in most cases.
Not so. If you are a Might hero with better Might stats and you dispel your opponent's spells you WERE ahead, passively, and you keep being ahead actively.
Seriously?
OMFG, I can play that too! Hey, if you have twenty Titans and they don't, then you WERE ahead. Or... if you were in a castle and your opponents have some DOT on them, then you WERE ahead. Or... that's a completely idiotic way to look at things, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Pretty sure it's actually that last one.
Look, there are lots of circumstances in which you have advantage from other things such that holding your opponent to a modest advantage on spell exchanges is acceptable. Heck, there are circumstances in which you are grossly outclassed and holding your opponent to a modest advantage on anything is the best you can hope for. But none of that changes the fact that with a spell/dispel exchange, the original spell caster got a benefit that was at least zero and the dispeller got a benefit that was at most zero. The original spellcaster is at least not behind in that exchange and quite likely ahead.
They cast Bless, then they attack for increased damage. Then you dispel it and we're back to status quo except that they already got a boosted attack out of the exchange and you didn't. They cast Bless, then you dispel it before they get a chance to get a boosted attack out of the deal and we're back to status quo with no modification. The first example has the original caster ahead and the second example has the dispeller not ahead, and there is no option three.
If you want to talk about the balance of individual things in the game, you have to be reductionist about it. You can't just throw your hands up in the air and say "things are complicated" and then follow your gut. Or rather, you can, but then you'd come up with answers that are wrong almost all the time. In a spell/dispel exchange, the spellcaster is always and forever even or ahead and the dispeller is always and forever even or behind. There are certainly situations where being even or even a little bit behind is acceptable on a spell exchange. But it's still making the most of a situation which is at best not to your advantage.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 12, 2014 07:36 PM |
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That's not what JJ was saying. If you are a magic class, then your spells are your only protection against a might hero. If he dispels something you just cast then he has the advantage of passive stats.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:47, 12 Oct 2014.
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Hobo2 said:
They cast Bless, then they attack for increased damage. Then you dispel it and we're back to status quo except that they already got a boosted attack out of the exchange and you didn't. They cast Bless, then you dispel it before they get a chance to get a boosted attack out of the deal and we're back to status quo with no modification. The first example has the original caster ahead and the second example has the dispeller not ahead, and there is no option three.
Option three: Enemy casts Haste, you cast haste too. Second turn, enemy casts Bless, you cast dispel on that unit. You have the advantage now.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 12, 2014 07:41 PM |
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Hobo2 said:
Look, there are lots of circumstances in which you have advantage from other things such that holding your opponent to a modest advantage on spell exchanges is acceptable. Heck, there are circumstances in which you are grossly outclassed and holding your opponent to a modest advantage on anything is the best you can hope for. But none of that changes the fact that with a spell/dispel exchange, the original spell caster got a benefit that was at least zero and the dispeller got a benefit that was at most zero. The original spellcaster is at least not behind in that exchange and quite likely ahead.
You do understand that letting your enemy do 1 blessed attack instead of, let's say, 4 is a sort of advantage or should I say, even a necessity sometimes, yes? And you certainly do know that dispels are usually way more cheaper than buffs/debuffs, don't you?
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 09:53 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 22:04, 12 Oct 2014.
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If there're no rounds in ATB, why do you have to introduce a standard round? You should get rid of it, if you want the ATB system to be smooth, solid, and self-sufficient.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 12, 2014 10:00 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
This is unnecessary difficulty. Creatures' turns are based on initiative, so you can easily identify who will act first etc. That useless addition will lead only to more "hardcore".
I hid the bar in H5.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 12, 2014 10:26 PM |
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Galaad said:
I hid the bar in H5.
Well, you just suggested a great compromise. Just make the visuals of the bar optional.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 13, 2014 03:01 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 14 Oct 2014. |
Edited by Stevie at 13:24, 15 Oct 2014.
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Ok.
After all this talk, I think I have a better understanding of things. So here're my thoughts on the subject.
To me the Heroes 5 system was an improvement. It wasn't perfection, I agree, but that was because of how it was implemented. The idea behind though, it's very good, and adds to the game something that a simple Turn system can not. And that is another dimension to the game.
Basically, Initiative is the system that answers the question of "When" your creature attacks. That is true in both the case of Turn Initiative and ATB Initiative, it defines Who Strikes First. What the ATB does different from Turn is that it asks another question - "How many times". With the Turn Initiative, you are restricted to one strike per turn, and that's it. But with the ATB you are given the means to get past that boundary. So it defines Attack Frequency.
That's the theory behind it. And it makes it clear that in theory, the ATB is superior to the Turn system.
However, we know how things went with Heroes 5. We can clearly see that things that sound good in theory can end up very bad when put in practice. But things that don't sound good in theory will never have the same potential as the ones that do. At least that's the kind of case we have here.
So having said this, let me present you my alternative of the ATB Initiative:
RULES
• Universal
I. One turn equals 100 Initiative.
This is the Standard Initiative for one turn by which all timers tick. The higher the number, the wider the area to work with. I could've gone with 1000, and it wouldn't have been bad at all, but that's kinda high for my tastes and it makes me work with 3 digit numbers whereas 2 digit would be just as good. It also keeps my explanation simpler.
II. Random starting ATB value between 0.0 and 0.5 added to the "Initiative Gauge" of each creature and Hero as extra Initiative.
Maybe improved by a Luck perk to 1.0 for own Creatures and Hero.
• Creatures
III. Creatures have Basic Initiative that is collected into an Initiative Gauge.
The gauge shows in the creature's portrait on the ATB as a ring that is charging (like the Heroes 6 racial gauge) and it's indicative of two things: current initiative accumulated, and distance from 100 Initiative which means that it's its turn.
You can think of the Basic Initiative as 10% of it's Potential Initiative, to have a good indication how that fares compared to the Standard Initiative. That means that the Potential Initiative of a creature with 10.0 initiative is 100, while the Potential of a creature with 11.0 is 110, meaning it would come 10% faster.
IV. Creatures act only when they fill their Initiative Gauge to 100 Initiative.
Excess Initiative is preserved. For example if my creature's Initiative Gauge has 95 and my creature has 10.0 Initiative, it will use 5 Initiative to complete the Gauge to 100 after which the Gauge resets to 5 Initiative. Fairly simple.
V. When creatures end up having the Initiative Gauged filled at the exact same time with the exact same value, the one with the highest Basic Initiative acts first. If that is also equal, the creature that comes first is determined by the last creature to take action before it (Heroes 3 style).
In the first case, it should be the one with the highest Basic Initiative that should come first. It's only natural, it's not higher without a reason. In the second case when the values are equal, if the last creature before them is yours, the enemy's comes first, if it's his, yours comes first.
VI. Creatures' Basic Initiative ranges from 10.0 to 12.5.
Including rational numbers like 10.1, 10.2, etc. In terms of Potential Initiative that's 100 to 125, 25 Initiative difference. Meaning that a creature with 12.5 Basic Initiative will have it first extra turn in the 4th turn, so 5 times in 4 turns compared to 4 times in 4 turns of a 10.0 Basic Initiative one.
VII. The minimum Initiative a creature can have is 7.5, and the maximum is 15.0.
Same as above, including numbers like 7.6, 7.7, etc. In terms of Potential Initiative that's 75 to 150, that's a 75 Initiative difference. A creature with 7.5 Basic Initiative would come 3 times in 4 turns while a creature with 15.0 would come 6 times in 4 turns.
So no mater how many buffs/debuffs are at play, the difference can only be that large. I think that if the difference between max and min is larger than that, there's a problem of balance. Creatures should never come more than twice than another no matter how extreme the conditions.
VIII. Waiting a creature consumes only 50 Initiative from the Gauge. Defending consumes 100.
Waiting resets your Initiative Gauge to 50 + excess Initiative. Pretty simple.
IX. Morale triggers reset the Initiative Gauge at 25 Initiative + excess Initiative.
25 seems an ok number to me. You might want to check Leadership bellow too.
• Heroes
X. Heroes have Basic Initiative that is collected into an Initiative Gauge.
In this regard, Heroes are similar to creatures.
XI. Heroes can choose to act only when they fill their Initiative Gauge to 100 Initiative, but they can only act on one of their creature's turn.
Unlike creatures, when your Hero fills the Initiative Gauge, you don't have to use him/her immediately. You can choose to preserve his/her action for a later point in the future. However that's also limited by the actions of your creatures.
XII. Heroes' standard Initiative Gauge is set to 125 Initiative.
This would enable the accumulation of Initiative beyond 100. So if you choose to wait your action with your hero, your Basic Initiative will still accumulate but not past 125. When you use your hero, 100 Initiative is expended from the Gauge, and it's reset at a maximum of 25 Initiative.
XIII. Heroes' Basic Initiative ranges from 10.0 to 12.5.
Just like creatures', depending on faction affiliation and Might/Magic class, there should be enough room for variation.
XIV. The minimum Initiative a Hero can have is 7.5, and the maximum is 15.0.
This might seems strange, because it implies that it can be modified, especially in the detriment of the Hero. But I think this would be interesting. Sabotaging the enemy's Hero and dampening his/her efficiency could prove a worthwhile tactic versus heavy casters. And conversely, some heroes would want a more rapid filling of the Initiative Gauge for more spell casting.
• Skills
XV. Leadership, Morale triggers reset the Initiative Gauge at a higher value. Also adds to Morale values.
Only for creatures. Maybe for Heroes too with the right perk.
- Standard value - 25 Initiative;
- Basic Leadership - 30 Initiative;
- Advanced Leadership - 35 Initiative;
- Expert Leadership - 40 Initiative.
XVI. Luck, increases Initiative randomization value at the beginning of the combat. Also adds to Luck values
As a perk, because I consider that there's no need for more than 1.0 total value to eventually distribute it with the mastery levels.
XVII. Sorcery, increases Heroes' Initiative.
Heroes' cast point comes faster as the Initiative Gouge fills more rapidly.
- Standard value - ranges from 10.0 to 12.5;
- Basic Sorcery - +0.5;
- Advanced Sorcery - +1.0;
- Expert Sorcery - +1.5.
XVIII. Wisdom, increases the Initiative Gauge's pool.
Heroes can preserve their turn longer and still accumulate Initiative.
- Standard value - 125 Initiative;
- Basic Wisdom - 135 Initiative;
- Advanced Wisdom - 145 Initiative;
- Expert Wisdom - 150 Initiative;
• Modifiers (spells/perks/artifacts/map objects/creatures abilities)
XIX. Initiative modifiers should not exceed a value of +1.0 Initiative.
With maybe Haste/Slow being an exception (+/-4 Standard; 0.8/1.2/1.6 with mastery) as well as some very powerful artifacts. Because of balance and stuff. We already have a Basic Initiative max and a min only 25 Initiative away from the limits. You'd want to close that with more than just one spell. So some 3 modifiers at least, that should be enough.
XX. Opposite modifiers do not Replace or Remove each other. But their values might cancel each other.
That's to say that if I cast Basic Haste on me and the enemy casts Basic Slow, both spells would be active but they wouldn't modify any value. Of course, things would be different if it would be an Advanced or Expert Slow.
Well, that's pretty much it. So what do we gain from all this?
1. We have an ATB system that allows Frequency of turns and not only First turn.
2. More unpredictable and challenging combats since you will be confronted with new situations given by the continuous rearranging of creatures on the ATB, and not the same creature order all the time.
3. Reduced starting randomness.
4. The player can find relevant information on the creatures' portraits in the ATB. A Initiative Gauge will display the accumulated Initiative as well as the distance from the creature's next action.
5. Guaranteed that each unit will have one strike before any other gets its second.
6. A creature can hit twice as much as another only in extreme conditions, and nothing above that.
7. Heroes Initiative different than creatures in the sense that it can accumulate into an Initiative Gauge bigger than 100 Initiative. It can also preserve its action for use whenever he/she sees fit.
8. Skills that allow improvement on both Heroes and creatures' Initiatives.
9. Modifiers that don't escalate things into the ridiculous.
Thanks for reading.
If you have any suggestions in regards to balancing numbers, new features, ideas or anything of the kind feel free to point them out. I'm open for constructive discussions. 
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 13, 2014 09:35 AM |
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Core concept is good Stevie. Obviously the maths you used was just as an example and would have to be tested, but the principles behind it are solid.
As has been mentioned previously in this thread, having an initiative indicator actually displayed on a creatures portrait may be a little confusing for some. As you look down the ATB, you would see creatures in order of when they are expected to get to the required initiative (attack), however because of the different initiative that creatures have, the indicators on their potraits would all be very different.
Example: Creature 1 has a higher init than creature 2, because of this higher initiative it will accumulate the required points to attack first. However if this was a few rounds in, the first creature could have less initiative displayed in it's portrait indicator than creature 2.
A simple fix might just be to have it set to "off" in the settings as default but could be turned "on" if you wished. However I think that it would be better if you could foresee where the creature would end up on the atb ahead of time instead. Then there wouldn't be any need for it and the system would be very clear for all players. That way you could go "What happens if I were to cast Haste on that creature?" Hover the cursor over the creature, it's potrait turns grey and moves to it's new potential position. No maths is required from the player then either, which is what would've been required to benefit from the init gauge that you mentioned.
____________
Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 13, 2014 09:38 AM |
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Couple of interesting ideas.
Questions:
1) If Leadership influences the gain out of a morale trigger, HOW is Morale triggered, that is, where comes the Morale from? How do you increase Morale values?
2) If a spell is cast or effects in general are triggered, how "long" will they last - how is that measured? BOTH for Heroes AND for creatures? (Creatures can cast as well.)
Also, I'm somewhat against hard limits. I would kinda like it, if initiatives were a lot more equal initially and somewhat more away from the bottom. I also don't like working with decimal points.
And a general thought.
IMO, the trouble with big, tanky low-initiave hulks versus agile high-initiave whirlwinds isn't the fact that you will move the tanks rarely; the problem is, they (generally) only have ONE retaliation to cover for the whole time they sit around. So apart from any No-Ret units like Blood Furies running circles around them, hitting them, you only need to somehow steal their one retaliation and then you can hit them unpunished. That is, apart from the fact that your shooters will whittle them down, because:
The second thing is SPEED. It's one thing to have low Initiative, but it's another to crawl along, reaching no one. Ever. Especially no shooters.
Conversely, a high-initiative unit without speed isn't worth much. Blood Furies are so good, because No Retaliation and Strike and Return actually make them a short-range full damage shooter; reduce their speed, and they fail. With Windstrider Boots or Aura of Swiftness they become the ultimate creeper.
So that means:
You can actually damp the effects of initiative, by adjusting/adding a couple things that change the focus somewhat.
And I do not mean tampering with attack, defense and damage in a ridiculous way, as hinted at.
However: The tougher, bigger and better a unit is, the more devastating high Initiave gets (Emerald Dragons, Phoenixes). It makes sense to give smaller Cores generally a higher Initiatve then tough, tanky Elites and Champions. An Elite unit with high initiative may well be the equivalent of a Champion.
Which means, I don't see the necessity for hard-coded Initiave limits at all - it's just that units and rules have to be adjusted somewhat, to cater to the fact that it is possible that units may be forced to stand around for some time.
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This thread is pages long: 
