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| Thread: Liches, skeletal or humanoid ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted December 08, 2014 02:00 PM |
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That looks really good, a huge improvement over the Heroes 6 ones!  I don't even mind the floating.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 02:44 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 14:47, 08 Dec 2014.
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Galaad said:
Steyn said:
My conclusion: skeletal or more fleshy is not the only important factor in the lich's design. I would argue it's not even the most important part.
While I agree the general design of Liches in MMH6 was missing the point, making them skeletal & tweaking details/colors can have quite the impact.
Look at this fanart I've found on this very forum for example.
(link to thread)
So when compared to the original, the changes are:
- a huge revamp of the staff, removing the chains and making it less bulky
- a change of headgear, going from a ridiculous spiky helmet to something persian looking.
- a huge revamp of the clothing
- removal of (most of) those ridiculous spikes
Dealing exactly with the problems I was describing here:
Steyn said:
I, myself, didn't really have any problems with the mummy look of the H6 lich. My problems with the design lay in the over-abundance of large ugly pointless (no pun intended) spikes and chains, the ridiculous helmet and that ugly oversized staff. And don't get me started on those stupid green tentacles 
If they would've kept the design more simple with a robed, partly mummified dark mage, then i would most probably have liked the unit despite it being not skeletal. If they would've kept the H6 design but with a skeletal lich, i still would've hated it.
My conclusion: skeletal or more fleshy is not the only important factor in the lich's design. I would argue it's not even the most important part.
The last two changes are:
- change of the glowing green things on his back from something resembling spider legs to something resembling wings. (This seems kind off pointless to me. As spider legs they at least fitted the theme a bit, now they are completely redundant. Imo they should've left them out completely)
- change of the head from fleshy to a skull. (While it certainly looks good and is in line with the previous liches, imo this is one of the smallest, if not the smallest of the changes made)
While I totally agree that this lich is absolutely superb compared to the H6 design, I stick to my point that it's not him being skeletal that does the job, but his overall design. With the fleshy head instead of the skull it would still be very much a lich and removing the green glowing wings would make him even better.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted December 08, 2014 02:52 PM |
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But the fact that the lich is skeletal is the first thing you observe at it. It's not a minor change as you think
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 15:24, 08 Dec 2014.
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Okey, I have to admit it's not the smallest change and does helps its atmosphere. However, my point still stands that the overall design with clothing, attributes etc. is much more important.
For example compare these two:
 
Besides the recolouring, the only difference is the head. Sure, the skeletal one does look a little bit more creepy (and a bit dumb), but the overall design still sucks. I wouldn't want any of those in my game, skeletal or not.
PS
I saw some really nice liches in that thread. Hopefully the H7 lich (if included of course) will look more like those than like its H6 counterpart. I especially liked the non-upgraded form:
source
Somehow it resembles the heroes 5 lich 
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 03:26 PM |
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I really like the ones posted above. I dont really care about the lack of flesh or not. That being said i feel like the helmet of the H6 was a deliverate design choice in the sense that, unless you have zoom to the max, the parts around the eyes make their faces look like skulls.
MattII said:
GenyaArikado said:
This is paraphrased as 'you're stupid', which is an insult As for proving it further, that statement proves only how infantile you are.
Actually, whether or not its in H6 isn't the point, the points is that most people don't like those attributes, which is why they don't like that pic.
You post it in a thread about lichs, people are going to assume you want that to be the new lich. Also, in one sentence you say "this isn't how I pictured them", but in another say "this is close to how I pictured them", which are contradictory.
Lore means sh*t, since Ubisoft changes it every game.
No, that's your interpretation.
Good thing all i was doing is answering this post when i talked about the levitation stuff. But you are obessesed into bringing it up
Galaad said:
Not only I don't get why Liches would levitate, but I also don't like the idea. Please, Lich on ground. If it's skeletal -and the poll so far suggests that it should be- then the gender doesn't come much onto consideration anyway.
Also, that rotten lady doesn't fit AT ALL 
Here i was defending the Hel!Lich idea, not my idea. Any kind criticism towards the idea should go to whoever originally posted it, not towards me.
Closest i could find =/= how i pictured it, that much should be obvious. Jesuschrist and you actually expect me to not think what i do about you?
It had some retcons from Heroes V to Heroes VI. All the H6-post H6 material (DoC, Ashan Compendium) has been pretty consistent
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 08, 2014 03:29 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Any kind criticism towards the idea should go to whoever originally posted it, not towards me.
My criticism was made towards the actual picture, not against you.
Thank you for keeping this thread as constructive and on topic as possible.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 08, 2014 06:17 PM |
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standard Lich with half of her face still with skin and a recognizable norse theme is all i want. not too much norse, just some detailing like a nice, norse sword by her side or something. that would be nice.
not expecting it for h7, but at least a hero (or portrait if making our own heroes does a comeback(pls)) would be nice.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted December 08, 2014 07:09 PM |
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Skeletal Liches b/c they scare me.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 07:45 PM |
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Galaad said:
GenyaArikado said:
Any kind criticism towards the idea should go to whoever originally posted it, not towards me.
My criticism was made towards the actual picture, not against you.
Thank you for keeping this thread as constructive and on topic as possible.
well i was the one quoted...
kiryu133 said:
standard Lich with half of her face still with skin and a recognizable norse theme is all i want. not too much norse, just some detailing like a nice, norse sword by her side or something. that would be nice.
not expecting it for h7, but at least a hero (or portrait if making our own heroes does a comeback(pls)) would be nice.
I'd prefer a girl since Hel but i wouldnt mind him returning
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 08, 2014 08:21 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
I'd prefer a girl since Hel but i wouldnt mind him returning
eh, he sould stay in heroes 4. he was kinda a one time deal (a great one) plus i don't think ubi could do him justice 
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 08:42 PM |
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As much as I like Gauldoth, but the problem is, he's pretty special. It comes with the territory of being a hero. Furthermore, Hel-like liches would make both Gauldoth, and in general Hel, pretty typical. I'd love for a Hel Necromancer hero... but not a unit commanded in the dozens. Furthermore, I like it when each faction is pretty independent and consistent with it's theme, so if Necropolis had a predominantly norse theme with these Heliches, I'd feel that the rest should follow suit. And if they do, then the Norse theme would feel pretty cramped if Fortress came back in a expansion.
But as a singular character? I'd love a unique lich hero that is half-dead, because his/her half-deadness is unique. When everyone is half-dead, half-deadness isn't unique anymore.
I'd much prefer the fan art of the modded H6 lich. It pretty well bridges the gap between the H6 floater butterfly liches, and the fancy-dress H5 liches. Even if it had spider-legged glowing backsides, it's not overdone in the fan-art; the glowing is subdued compared to the real art. That's what I want: a subdued pallet. It's why Dungeon became 50 shades of purple and Necro green, and Haven gold, Inferno red... their color pallets were over saturated and focused heavily. Those fan art modulations still have some green (spider legs, green gems in staff) but otherwise isn't a dressed-in-all-black goth at a rave party.
As for it floating still... now Disciples have flying carpets. What better way to one-up the Wizards yet again by floating and flying without such silly enchanted furniture?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 08, 2014 08:50 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 20:53, 08 Dec 2014.
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Protolisk said:
As for it floating still... now Disciples have flying carpets. What better way to one-up the Wizards yet again by floating and flying without such silly enchanted furniture?
Disciples on flying carpet makes sense with Academy's redesign in an oriental environment within Ashan, while floating Lich appeals to.. ?
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 20:57, 08 Dec 2014.
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Who again was it that wanted flying pants?
Edit:
Ah, it was fuChris
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 09:02 PM |
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Galaad said:
Protolisk said:
As for it floating still... now Disciples have flying carpets. What better way to one-up the Wizards yet again by floating and flying without such silly enchanted furniture?
Disciples on flying carpet makes sense with Academy's redesign in an oriental environment within Ashan, while floating Lich appeals to.. ?
The liches themselves. Those Disciples dare try to one-up them? They must be shown their place! Powerful wizards of the necromantic arts can't let students outshine them!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted December 08, 2014 09:24 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
eh, he sould stay in heroes 4. he was kinda a one time deal (a great one) plus i don't think ubi could do him justice
yeah Gauldoth should remain unique to Axeoth, better off not tying such an interesting character into the nonsense plots of Ubi
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 09:47 PM |
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Those are some nice Lich pictures - The one that Galaad posted. Now this is more like something i picture when someone says "lich". I myself would give him legs ... but ok. Like i said earlier in this thread, im not against the "hovering" part, if it actualy serves a purpose. That is, if lich would be actual flyer, and not walker. If he dosen't fly tho ... he should walk ... on legs - both of them. That green thing - has to go in actual game. Yes if it's only part of art it's not bad - i just prefer ingame lich to be lacking glowy green puff comming from his behind.
LizardWarrior said:
Koschei is a pretty well defined mythich ancestor of the lich because:
-he's immortal
-koschei comes from the word "kost" which means bone, i.e: skeletal appearence
-he's a king/royalty this explains liches' royal attire
-he uses magic
I know. I'm from Eastern Europe. That's why i said "except for Koschei". However i never taught of him as being skeletal despite his name - more like rotting old man. With beard. While "kost" means bone, "ko¹èen" actualy means skinny - so maybe it can be interpreted like that? im no expert tho. Also he's not very well known, so while i can't deny, that he may have influence in creation of lich, i still belive Sauron from Lord of the rings (ring can be maybe seen as a phylactery - when you destroy it, it kills him), or even Nazgul are primary influence. Specialy since first time modern lich apreared was in D&D, which is heavyly based on Tolkien's works. Tolkien however did take a lot out of mythology, and perhaps his inspiration was also Koschei.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 08, 2014 10:03 PM |
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Protolisk said:
As much as I like Gauldoth, but the problem is, he's pretty special. It comes with the territory of being a hero. Furthermore, Hel-like liches would make both Gauldoth, and in general Hel, pretty typical. I'd love for a Hel Necromancer hero... but not a unit commanded in the dozens.
But as a singular character? I'd love a unique lich hero that is half-dead, because his/her half-deadness is unique. When everyone is half-dead, half-deadness isn't unique anymore.
I'd much prefer the fan art of the modded H6 lich. It pretty well bridges the gap between the H6 floater butterfly liches, and the fancy-dress H5 liches. Even if it had spider-legged glowing backsides, it's not overdone in the fan-art; the glowing is subdued compared to the real art. That's what I want: a subdued pallet. It's why Dungeon became 50 shades of purple and Necro green, and Haven gold, Inferno red... their color pallets were over saturated and focused heavily. Those fan art modulations still have some green (spider legs, green gems in staff) but otherwise isn't a dressed-in-all-black goth at a rave party.
As for it floating still... now Disciples have flying carpets. What better way to one-up the Wizards yet again by floating and flying without such silly enchanted furniture?
damn you and your convincing arguments! i was totally on board for a Hel-unit until now  i still am but whatever.
Protolisk said:
Furthermore, I like it when each faction is pretty independent and consistent with it's theme, so if Necropolis had a predominantly norse theme with these Heliches, I'd feel that the rest should follow suit. And if they do, then the Norse theme would feel pretty cramped if Fortress came back in a expansion.
would prefer an offensive necro to be norse-themed over a defensive dwarf faction tbh... when did vikings turn into a turtling type of faction? but i understand though not necessarily agree with this. factions should be diverse in inspiration with nothing more than a vague, central theme open to a myriad of influences. h3 inferno had devils and efreet together and that worked pretty well so why not having a vaguely norse unit in a primarily Egyptian necro? as long as the primary theme isn't hammered in to heavily it should work fine and would allow for plenty of interesting unit in different factions.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2014 10:59 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
damn you and your convincing arguments!
Why, thank you. Never thought me and my opinions would be condemned in such a complimentary way.
kiryu133 said:
would prefer an offensive necro to be norse-themed over a defensive dwarf faction tbh... when did vikings turn into a turtling type of faction? but i understand though not necessarily agree with this. factions should be diverse in inspiration with nothing more than a vague, central theme open to a myriad of influences. h3 inferno had devils and efreet together and that worked pretty well so why not having a vaguely norse unit in a primarily Egyptian necro? as long as the primary theme isn't hammered in to heavily it should work fine and would allow for plenty of interesting unit in different factions.
True, Inferno worked pretty well with their more Muslim Efreet and some vaguely Judeo-Christian Devils alongside the Greek Cerberus. However, the theme that tied them together is usually demonic or otherwise related to the underworld. Even old Ifrit were evil spirits from below the ground, if I understand correctly. Most Inferno was tied by this idea: demonic beasts from below ground. If indeed the Devils are below ground in Hell, Cerberus in the Underworld, Efreet from under the earth... all lie along the same lines. Even so, as much as people like to tout the opposite, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all pretty closely related, as Judaism is the "progenitor", so to speak, of the others. They are pretty well tied together.
The problem with Norse themed units in an undead faction is that they don't have a lot to go on. Besides the generic "shade" ghost like beings that live in Helheim, there is no real "lich" in Norse, as far as I can tell. There are Valkyrie, which scour the battlefields for those who are deemed worthy into Valhalla, but Valkyrie aren't really dead, and the Einherjar they produce, which only fight once, at the end of days (it's what the "ein" part of their name means, if I'm not mistaken, as it means roughly "once") Yes, the word "lik" is an old Norse/Germanic word, but it just means corpse or body, and is not tied to the spirit, it didn't mean anything supernatural. It'd be like calling a unit "carcass". Then again, we do have "Skeletons", so it doesn't not have precedent, but otherwise isn't really related to our ideas of Liches as far as I can tell.
If you did want a dead-themed Norse unit, you'd have to go with Valkyries (which are in Fortress) or Einherjar (which seem to be sort of included in our new Fire Giants, because from what I remember, Fire Giants are when a Dwarf dies so spectacularly, Arkath brings em back as a being of flame. Kinda like Valkyries bringing Norse dudes back as these Einherjar after a glorious battle. Kinda), or with the usually unknown Draugr, which are kind of like Ghouls mixed with Ghosts, or Revenants. Still, no lich-like beings like we are accustomed to. It'd be like saying "This here is a dragon" and subsequently showing off a crocodile. Sure, it may look like one, but it isn't really close at all. That's not to say a norse themed death unit isn't viable, but they've either been grabbed by Fortress, or would replace the Ghoul or Ghost rather than supplement the Lich
I do agree with you, the viking heritage that the Dwarves utilize should have more offensive than defensive. But, still, even Dwarves are more mythologically inclined to be Norse, since that's where they come from. Sure, I do agree with the idea that you could have some inspiration from other mythological backgrounds (Academy is filled with Titans and Cabir as greek, Djinn as islamic, Golem as Judaic, Rakshasa as Hindu, Simurgh as Persian, and so forth, and I love them) but with this Hel Lich, it would be drawing inspiration from where there isn't much. There isn't really room for a supernatural spell casting thing in Norse beyond the Volur, which are still pretty alive, basing their teachings from Freyja. Even more, Hel is also half alive. Liches are pretty definitively dead. Finaly, isn't Necro also defensive, and not offensive, with its more easily gained Raise Dead spell and focuses on simply having bigger numbers rather than actual strength? More of a "slow moving meat wall" kind of strategy? Neither Necro nor Fortress are much in the "offensive" category as far as I've seen. At least, not to the effect of Inferno, Stronghold or Sylvan typically are.
But what do I know? 
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 07:36 AM |
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In terms of what I'm aiming for in a lich, this comes pretty close:
Lich by mattdonnici
It's not exact of course, the level of rot is about right, but would prefer the clothes to be similar to those bits of H6 fanart, sans the ridiculous, spiky spaulders.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 09, 2014 08:51 AM |
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Frankly I believe the main source of inspiration for the Lich was the personification of death.
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