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| Thread: UnderPowered spells |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2015 03:26 PM |
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UnderPowered spells
Hey guys,
When Im looking through the spells, I was shocked that inferno only do 10XPower as damage. does that not seem too weak for Level 4 spell?
I was thinking that maybe the best is 25XPower because it typically hits 3 units yes? that means total damage of 75XPower, Because if you compare that with chain lightning, it does 40Xpower and 4 units
that will be:
40+20+10+5 = 75
so its roughly the same
not just that, even lightning bolt deos 25X power more than inferno LOL (and just lvl 2)
also, fireball is too weak as well.
as for fireshield, I am not so sure if it is effective to cast or not. Would expert mass shield be overpowered or will it be just ok? I personally never casted it, but I think I will consider in mass cast case.
also about haste and slow, what do you think of them? I feel it they are too powerful and not just that, they cancel each other. what do you think? I think they are powerful but they are ok dont need to be nerf because they counter each other and are easy to get. (so just make sure you cast slow or haste at the right time, and btw, ofc haste is a little more powerful)
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draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2015 05:27 PM |
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I disagree about mass haste being definitely better than mass slow. I almost always cast mass slow, but rarely mass haste. I would rather avoid my units getting ganged up on and spend a couple extra rounds in battle than rush all my units across the board to get slaughtered on the counter attack (obviously melee/ranged makes a difference).
Inferno is too weak and too expensive, I will give you that. I can probably count on two hands the amount of times I've used it in thousands of tens of thousands of hours, and some of those have been because I like to the look of the spell.
Rarely do I caste anything higher than level 1 spells though.
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 06, 2015 06:04 PM |
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Slow is better vs map, haste is better vs human. After haste all your powerstacks will likely go one after another, and it can and often does anihilate most of opponents army.
I agree that fire magic spells have pitiful damage. Although I think with inferno it can be justified, as you can catch more units in it.
There are in general spells that are useful way more often than others, and spells that are way more effective than others. That's the way it is. But almost all spells can have their uses, even if you play against human. I have seen a dragon utopia taken with smaller loses thanks to fortune spell that somehow worked and made last stack attack with luck 
Cheers
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 06, 2015 08:23 PM |
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kicferk said:
I agree that fire magic spells have pitiful damage. Although I think with inferno it can be justified, as you can catch more units in it.
inferno cannot be justified, because if the damage is to be compared to that of chain lightning, it has to catch about 5-6 units together, which I guess is by no means possible
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 12:11 AM |
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It costs way less mana than chain lightning. And it cannot be stopped by an artifact like pedant of negativity. And you can aim it better. And catching many units in one blast is not impossible if opponent is trying to protect an important stack, say, shooters.
In which case it's better to use meteor shower, but hey, that goes to what I said about different spells having different uses.
In any case, what do you have to say about armageddon? Is that spell damage underpowered too?
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 07, 2015 12:21 AM |
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My distaste with Inferno, besides damage, is the fact it's mainly a greater fireball renamed. I don't approve another completely higher level spell slot being used to represent a lesser spell just with a different name. Effects for it could be made different, unique, more Inferno-like.
In Heroes 3, having the evolution of Elemental Magic School making haste and slow getting a mass effect was a right point, imho. In H4, they were back at having 2 spells for different levels, one being of mass effect; worst, some spells even were repeated in different schools.
Inferno, giving a crude example, could immolate targets for a couple of turns.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 12:45 AM |
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H3 fire spells are not that great overall. It's the school people less likely make expert. I mean you have Blind, it's awesome, cheap and level 2 but there's nothing significant about making it expert, Misfortune becomes better with Era's bad luck plug-in (same goes for HotA), mass Curse has it's times (Griffin Conservotaries etc) but none of them can compete with expert Earth, Air or even Water. The only real juice about it is mass Berserk but who's going to pick a magic school just for one spell...
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 02:15 AM |
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draco said:
I disagree about mass haste being definitely better than mass slow.
It is because mass haste you can cast it just before you move, and so you are unstoppable. No one can slow you down because their turn is yet to come. Slow is easier to counter: I wait you to slow me, I haste myslef
kicferk said:
In any case, what do you have to say about armageddon? Is that spell damage underpowered too?
Armageddon is sort of double edge spell in itself. It might even be considered overpowered since it is only going to be used at situations where it is useful, I think
PandaTar said:
My distaste with Inferno, besides damage, is the fact it's mainly a greater fireball renamed. I don't approve another completely higher level spell slot being used to represent a lesser spell just with a different name. Effects for it could be made different, unique, more Inferno-like.
and magic arrow+lightning Bolt same thing! (but icebolt thing look a little different though)
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 07, 2015 03:23 AM |
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Ice bolt and lightning bolt damage creatures differently due to immunity/vulnerability/resistance.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted March 07, 2015 03:38 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 03:39, 07 Mar 2015.
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Orc said:
It might even be considered overpowered since it is only going to be used at situations where it is useful, I think
Is that not the point of spells? Is earthquake overpowered in sieges?
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 07, 2015 11:06 PM |
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Edited by Orc at 23:13, 07 Mar 2015.
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Orc said:
Gryphs said:
It might even be considered overpowered since it is only going to be used at situations where it is useful, I think
Is that not the point of spells? Is earthquake overpowered in sieges?
I just finished a game. I managed to get dimension door, Armageddon, FIre+air. I also had intelligence. My hero specialty blood lust
I had conflux
I got about 30 phoenixes and few energy elementals into one hero. I ended up dumping my main hero. Just instant attack Armageddon and win.
even arch angels couldn't do a thing (phoenix is too op with that speed lol)
its been so hard to getting that Armageddon, but once I got it, I just lost about no units at all every battle, except when conquering a castle. every battle usually ends in one turn.
so, maybe only resistance can counter that Armageddon I guess.
armaggedon was doing about 1,000 when I started. it eventually become sort of 1920 after I got fire orb or something (50% more damage)
(I got dimension door from seer hut for lot of resources, and Armaggeddon only from fire tome, I was just too unlucky with the mage guilds, only prayer and such)
ofcourse it might not be armagedons problem, maybe its conflux having too many immune to spell units is imba, I guess.
Eidt: wait and magma elemental is immune too? wtf
anyway, that what I meant by "it might be OP"
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 08, 2015 01:13 AM |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted March 08, 2015 02:44 AM |
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artu said:
but who's going to pick a magic school just for one spell...
Everybody in multiplayer games. The only reason people pick Air is cause of Haste and travelling spells ask Maretti or Gomunguls if they consider other thing?
Maretti once told me he prefers to pick scouting to Water.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 08, 2015 09:08 AM |
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Don't generalize. Everybody will pick earth or air for one spell but no one will pick fire for one spell. In multiplayer the chances to get up to berserk are slim and you don't waste a slot that way, and in single player the satisfaction from winning battles with berserk is very slim too.
In AI code, berserk isn't even flagged as spell (will never use it) so is clearly a placeholder for noobs who can't battle the proper way. Beside, it can be such easily countered by only a treasure artifact that it barely deserves praise.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 08, 2015 10:45 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:01, 08 Mar 2015.
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bloodsucker said:
Everybody in multiplayer games. The only reason people pick Air is cause of Haste and travelling spells.
That's like saying the only reason they make money is to live in luxury or the only reason they eat fruit is that it tastes incredibly good.
Besides, expert Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Air Shield and Counterstrike definitely wont hurt either. Fire looks like they tried to design it as the ultimate damage school but somehow Air Magic has better and more practical damage spells overalll. Implosion should have been a Fire Spell, Magic Mirror should have been level 2 or something, Firewall should have worked and look better (you keep burning each turn, slowly extinguishing and losing less HP each turn once you pass through the wall), losing bad luck should have been part of original game so Misfortune meant something, Fireball, Inferno, Fire Magic Arrow should have very increased damage on wood (Ballistas and Ammo chart). Maybe, the last one can be coded, it would be a nice mod. Any mod that would boost Fire School would be very handy, in my opinion.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 08, 2015 07:11 PM |
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artu said:
Besides, expert Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Air Shield and Counterstrike definitely wont hurt either. Fire looks like they tried to design it as the ultimate damage school but somehow Air Magic has better and more practical damage spells overalll. Implosion should have been a Fire Spell, Magic Mirror should have been level 2 or something, Firewall should have worked and look better (you keep burning each turn, slowly extinguishing and losing less HP each turn once you pass through the wall), losing bad luck should have been part of original game so Misfortune meant something, Fireball, Inferno, Fire Magic Arrow should have very increased damage on wood (Ballistas and Ammo chart). Maybe, the last one can be coded, it would be a nice mod. Any mod that would boost Fire School would be very handy, in my opinion.
totally agree! It would be great to have such mod.
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Vampire_Rush
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 10, 2015 05:05 PM |
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Sometimes its good with fire magic, like in battles with armageddon. Not only does it boost armageddon and make it cheaper, also expert protection from fire is very good for both sides in such battles. Fire elemental is also armageddon-proof, with only vulnerability to weak frost ring and ice bolt.
Frenzy and sacrifice seems forgotten in this discussion, probably because they need experience to be played correctly. Expert curse is nice vs fortress and inferno (the latter dont even have bless, which reminds me Crag Hack with friends can't even get water magic). Then of course some magic school has to be worst.
If you boosted fire magic, how would you make sure it wouldnt become overpowered? It would be fun to see someone try though
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 10, 2015 05:55 PM |
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Frenzy and sacrifice have been forgotten for totally different reasons.
Frenzy was forgotten because it prints a giant "kill me" sign that lusts for entire round on whichever stack was its target. If you make your powerstack hit harder with frenzy, it will likely die very quickly. Especially if opponent uses haste or slow after your frenzy, which will give him a lot of moves to reach your stack.
Sacrifice was forgotten, because carrying a spare stack of low level creatures into battle and trying to protect them for eventual use is impractical. In most cases resurrection works just fine for the purpose of bringing back your army.
Expert curse does very little to high tier creatures, as well as angels and wyverns, available in hives and cons everywhere. Shield trumps curse.
The way I would balance it would be to move town portal to it. Huge shift in balance
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 10, 2015 10:23 PM |
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But it also has to make a little bit sense, Town Portal screams Earth Magic, try Implosion (damage spell fits school profile) + maybe Counterstrike (can be any school really)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 10, 2015 10:29 PM |
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I agree that Inferno is pathetic. Fireball could be nice if the cost was reduced. Jut compare Fireball to Meteor Shower - the second one deal 250% damage for just 1 more mana. This can be because it's 4th level spell, but either way everybody will use Meteor Shower over Inferno every time it's possible.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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