|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
posted April 21, 2017 09:41 PM |
|
|
Thanks Magno that is good idea!
2 download packages uploaded to cover both latest versions and shared between both mod pages as follows:
- NCF addon for Might and Magic Heroes 5.5 RC8b
- NCF addon for Might and Magic Heroes 5.5 RC9b
The include NCF core + all the relevant exes (default, x64, utility and
editor ) for the versions pointed.
Tutorial guide revamped to reflect new download locations also some points are simplified due to having all files at one place.
Fingers crossed for front page tutorial tomorrow.
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 21, 2017 10:06 PM |
|
Edited by azalen at 22:08, 21 Apr 2017.
|
Sooooo.... if there was to be a new faction added to Heroes 5.5, what faction would that be?
I know, I know, it will never happen... but one can dream 
A few ideas:
Evil Fey: Quicklings, spriggans, satyrs, khord, hags, Baba Yaga, Queen of Air and Darkness, "old magic", emphasize many spell casting creatures
Ocean Based Faction (Merfolk, naga, kracken, cold destruction, initiative suppression 'flooding/tapping effects')
Asian Mythology Faction: I guess Heroes 6 already did something like this
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 22, 2017 12:26 AM |
|
|
roymend said:
@magnomagus It was definitely installed, I checked. And deleting the maps, the saves, and the RMGTemp folder (in data), none of them have any effect, still blank. It's weird 
Yes, this is very weird, and I'm certain there is something on your end as I cannot reproduce any bug like this.
Which map is this?
In any case, do the following:
1) Empty the Maps and UserMODs folders
2) Uninstall MMH5.5
3) Start the game to make sure you have the version 3.1. If these steps don't work, re-do them by actually uninstall/reinstalling the Heroes 5 game in this step.
4) Make sure in the "data" folder, there are only 6 pak files: a2p1-data, a2p1-texts, data, sound, soundsfx, texts.
5) Make sure you have the latest MMH5.5 package, and install it.
6) Start the game.
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 12:00 PM |
|
Edited by thGryphn at 12:02, 24 Apr 2017.
|
Long post on combat balance issues
@magno
There is something that's been bothering me about the balance between the Offense and Defense skills. Currently, Defense is trumping Offense (although much less so compared to vanilla ToTE) and it is still a much more indispensable skill.
Currently, Offense increases melee damage dealt by 10 - 15 - 20 %, while Defense decreases melee damage received 10 - 17.5 - 25% %, at respective levels.
When two opponents - one with Offense, one with Defense - meets, consider three scenarios where a creature with Offense is attacking an enemy creature with Defense at matching level.
Basic Offense vs Basic Defense, Resulting Modifier:
(1 + 0.10) * (1 - 0.1) = 0.99
Advanced Offense vs Advanced Defense, Resulting Modifier:
(1 + 0.15) * (1 - 0.175) = 0.94875
Expert Offense vs Expert Defense, Resulting Modifier:
(1 + 0.20) * (1 - 0.25) = 0.90
I confirmed these in-game.
In short, if you have Expert Defense, you get at least 10% damage reduction even if your opponent has Expert Offense!
I'm not sure if this was intended, but it's not right IMO. Offense and Defense should be on equal footing. I came up with some schemes each achieving this:
1) Offense bonus: 10 - 17.5 - 25, Defense bonus: 10 - 15 - 20
Basic match-up: 0.99
Advanced match-up: 0.99875
Expert match-up: 1.00
2) Offense bonus: 9 - 14.5 - 20, Defense bonus: 9 - 13 - 17
Basic match-up: 0.9919
Advanced match-up: 0.99615
Expert match-up: 0.9960
3) Offense bonus: 8 - 14 - 20, Defense bonus: 8 - 12.5 - 17
Basic match-up: 0.9936
Advanced match-up: 0.9975
Expert match-up: 0.9960
4) Offense bonus: 7 - 13.5 - 20, Defense bonus: 7 - 12 - 17
Basic match-up: 0.9951
Advanced match-up: 0.9988
Expert match-up: 0.9960
I think the last one is the best. It not only maintains the balance between Luck and Offense (and actually it does it better than now when you compare level by level), it gives a more meaningful separation between Defense levels. If we shoot for a perfect balance between Offense and Luck, the following is possible:
5) Offense bonus: 6.7 - 13.4 - 20.1, Defense bonus: 7 - 12 - 17
Basic match-up: 0.99231
Advanced match-up: 0.99792
Expert match-up: 0.99683
Or, you can change the Luck multiplier to 1.7 (instead of 1.67  ), and we can do the following which is much easier to communicate with round numbers:
6) Offense bonus: 7 - 14 - 21, Defense bonus: 7 - 12 - 17
Basic match-up: 0.9951
Advanced match-up: 1.0032
Expert match-up: 1.0043
Besides this balance issue between Offense and Defense skills, I think there is a balance issue between Attack (A) and Defense (D) primary skills.
Currently, attacker's damage cannot be modified (through the difference between attacker's A and defender's D) to more than 3 times its base. Since for every positive A-D difference the base damage is increased by 3.3%, the largest A-D rewarded is 60.
On the other hand, damage of the attacker is allowed to get reduced down to 10% of its base value (in cases where D-A is positive). This means, D-A differences up to 272 is rewarded, which in turn means any increase in Defense statistic is always rewarded.
I believe the limit on D-A difference must be reciprocal to the limit on A-D. If the upper limit is 3x damage, then the lower limit must be 0.33x (which would mean D-A differences up to 60 is rewarded). This would improve the balance between especially Tier 1 and Tier 7 units; currently Tier 1 units do too little damage to Tier 7 units.
This brings me to the final and possibly the most important balance issue in combat: it still rewards the first movers way too much. Not only Initiative is still an OP statistic, the outcome of the battle gets influenced way too drastically by the ATB-bar randomization. If you have high initiative (natural or by help of artifacts, mini-artifacts or skills) heavy hitters, especially range-hitters, it becomes just too easy to decimate disproportionately stronger armies. Combats against neutrals or AI could be more fun, and pretty much all combats could be much less reliant on that starting ATB randomization, if we reduced the bonus (penalty) per A-D (D-A) difference to 2.5%. I know this would cause the battles take longer and that's also one of the points in a heroes game (no?): to show your combat prowess.
Longer combat also actually rewards spells with long duration. This is not about Magic vs Might heroes, but the fact of the matter is if the battle practically ends in 3-4 turns, how good does it do if your Weakness spell lasts 15 turns? This not only renders a lot of spells useless, it nullifies most of the spellpower/knowledge/spell gaining efforts. This is true if you're on the winning side, but mostly if you're on the losing side.
Along with this change (to 2.5% per A-D), I would set the upper limit on damage modification to 2.5x (which would still reward A-D differences up to 60), and the lower limit to 0.4x (which also rewards D-A differences up to 60).
I guess this captures most of my thoughts on this... I hope you read it all, it was tiresome to type it, lol 
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 12:54 PM |
|
|
I will probably have to come back to some stuff later but you need to realize:
1. a secondary skill slot is normally worth around 2 primary skills except end of branch skill can be a little stronger so 25% offense is OP,
2. D give diminishing returns on every primary skill investment and those diminishing returns are also empowered by having the defense secondary skill, so defense weakens the investements in D primary skill. A doesn't have those diminishing returns and attack secondary skill doesn't have the same effect.
3. A statistic cannot be OP, a creature can have too much initiative, but the statistic cannot be OP or UP.
4. I reduced ATB randomization more in the past but there were also complaints, people like the game to be a little random.
5. I don't think 60D or 272D is very important how often do you go over a difference of 60 anyway. the effect of the additional D is very minimal.
6. I like tier 1 to feel irrelevant to tier 7, otherwise you get heroes 7 complaints with core creatures being able to do it all.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 01:19 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
6. I like tier 1 to feel irrelevant to tier 7, otherwise you get heroes 7 complaints with core creatures being able to do it all.
I have seen this to happen with Fortress heroes specializing in Dwarves and Harpooners.
Usually all Heroes that have unit specialization make the stack more powerful but Fortress go beyond due to their high HP for tier 1 and high HP and Damage for tier 2, upgr 2. It also adds up that those units are harvested in great numbers from secondary castles and additional creature buildings on the adventure map.
This is opinion based on a few battles I have had some time ago against fortress compared to other specialization heroes from other factions. Even vampires lords under Vampire Princess specialization feel easier to kill than those mentioned above.
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
4111517
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 01:48 PM |
|
|
Today I saw that AI could convert captured castles into his fraction
I tried to find that function with my castles, but there is no any buttons, propositions of convertion
Map Ultima Classic
http://www.maps4heroes.com/heroes5/rating.php?testcookie=&id=589
used MMH55_Mapmixer, creatures power ratio 5 and swap artifacts
what's wrong with me?
____________
|
|
strigvir
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 02:42 PM |
|
|
|
4111517
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 02:57 PM |
|
|
strigvir said:
Read documentation.
from manual
MMH55-Settings.pak file in the data folder, inside it there is a
value that activates or deactivates Conversions.
the file is present
if there was something wrong with scripts - Mapmixer should fix it.
____________
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 03:04 PM |
|
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 03:24 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
I will probably have to come back to some stuff later but you need to realize:
1. a secondary skill slot is normally worth around 2 primary skills except end of branch skill can be a little stronger so 25% offense is OP,
2. D give diminishing returns on every primary skill investment and those diminishing returns are also empowered by having the defense secondary skill, so defense weakens the investements in D primary skill. A doesn't have those diminishing returns and attack secondary skill doesn't have the same effect.
3. A statistic cannot be OP, a creature can have too much initiative, but the statistic cannot be OP or UP.
4. I reduced ATB randomization more in the past but there were also complaints, people like the game to be a little random.
5. I don't think 60D or 272D is very important how often do you go over a difference of 60 anyway. the effect of the additional D is very minimal.
6. I like tier 1 to feel irrelevant to tier 7, otherwise you get heroes 7 complaints with core creatures being able to do it all.
1) OK, 25% is probably too much, but that was only one of the 6 ideas.
2) Just to put it here, the damage formula is:
(Base Damage) x (#Creatures) x (1 + OffenseFactor) x (1 - DefenseFactor) x [1 + 0.033 (A-D)]
if A>D or
(Base Damage) x (#Creatures) x (1 + OffenseFactor) x (1 - DefenseFactor) / [1 + 0.033 (D-A)]
if D>A.
As long as A > D, at any given DefenseFactor, each D has the same nominal returns.
As long as D > A, at any given DefenseFactor, D has diminishing nominal returns.
That established, The DefenseFactor does not interact with the diminishing behavior; it does not make it more (or less) diminishing, it just changes the magnitudes across the board.
I'm saying these to show you that what you said is beside the point: what I showed about the comparison of Offense and Defense secondary skills remains, and Defense is overpowering Offense at same level.
3) By Initiative being OP, I meant that it's influence on the outcome of the battle is much higher than other statistics, to the extent that it feels slightly unbalanced, all because of the first-mover advantage it gives (not during a battle) which is the point I was trying to make.
4) I'm fine with randomness actually. I'll retract that portion of my suggestion. What would make a substantial improvement is not this, but rather slowing down the battle a little by reducing the damage modification factor from 3.3% to 2.5%.
5) Well, in practical terms, we don't see D-A differences greater than 60 that often. Consider a rather late-game scenario: When 1000 neutral Skeleton Warriors hit 10 Magma Dragons with a hero of 51 Defense (for a D-A=90), the resulting damage range is currently 251-755. With a cap, it would be 333-999. If MDs have Expert Defense, the comparison is 188-566 vs 250-750. It's not a huge difference, but in any case I rather have a symmetric cap on both ends.
6) I see what you're saying but this (increasing the lower bound on damage modification) wouldn't make the Tier 1 units more powerful in a way for them to substitute Tier 7 units. It would only make Tier 1 units suck less when fighting against Tier 7 units.
The lower cap on damage modification is not a big deal: IMO it should be symmetric if only for the sake of symmetric design. What's more important is the balance between Offense and Defense for which I proposed viable solutions, and the first-mover advantage which can be alleviated by reducing the A-D (and D-A) factor to 2.5% (also considering that longer combat makes many spells more worthwhile along with investments in spellpower/knowledge).
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 07:07 PM |
|
|
you are right about diminishing returns, i was thinking about heroes 3 formula, but attack is definately ok this way since strength is 6 at 0 difference but grows.
for example 1 x 1.2 x 1.2 > 1 x 1.4
with defense it is the other way around which explains nivals idea. nonetheless defense may be more balanced at 20%.
with regards to 0.25 vs 0.33 this is a huge operation since tons of skills and description need to be modified. basically it requires to recalculate the entire game since relative value of K & S will go up. spells and artifacts may also be needed to change. This is also the reason I have not permanently implemented Deflaktors latest level fix since if i really want to add much more levels all this may also need to change since the player will gather more primary skills in total.
It may however be possible to go down to 0.3 without changing anything, since it would only be a 'slowdown' of 10%.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 08:01 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
but attack is definately ok this way since strength is 6 at 0 difference but grows.
for example 1 x 1.2 x 1.2 > 1 x 1.4
It maybe because I'm tired right now but I really did not understand what you're saying above, which means I don't get the below either...
magnomagus said:
with defense it is the other way around which explains nivals idea.
magnomagus said:
with regards to 0.25 vs 0.33 this is a huge operation since tons of skills and description need to be modified. basically it requires to recalculate the entire game since relative value of K & S will go up. spells and artifacts may also be needed to change. This is also the reason I have not permanently implemented Deflaktors latest level fix since if i really want to add much more levels all this may also need to change since the player will gather more primary skills in total.
It may however be possible to go down to 0.3 without changing anything, since it would only be a 'slowdown' of 10%.
Well, yeah, you know the details there as to what was tied to what, so yeah, it may be quite some rework...
0.3 would be appreciated, 10% is not so bad
|
|
4111517
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 10:55 PM |
|
Edited by 4111517 at 22:57, 24 Apr 2017.
|
magnomagus said:
right click on the town management ability (adventure spell) and read the tooltip how to use TC.
Thanks, I didn't know where to look and where this option could be.
p.s. The price of convertion is OMG =)
____________
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted April 24, 2017 11:34 PM |
|
|
the price depends on the amount of buildings the town has already build.
@ThGryphn: yes that was unclear i meant if offense is at 20% it has the same value as 6 Attack, but only if difference between A & D = 0, the more Attack the stronger it becomes.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 25, 2017 03:49 AM |
|
Edited by thGryphn at 03:54, 25 Apr 2017.
|
magnomagus said:
@ThGryphn: yes that was unclear i meant if offense is at 20% it has the same value as 6 Attack, but only if difference between A & D = 0, the more Attack the stronger it becomes.
From the attacker's pov:
+6 A with (A-D)=0 to begin with increases damage by 19.8%. If (A-D)>0, then there are diminishing returns on relative increase. For example, if (A-D)=1 to begin with, relative increase with +6 A is 19.2%. 18.6% if (A-D)=2 to begin with, and so on.
If (A-D) is negative to begin with, then what +6 A brings would depend on the initial value of (A-D). For example, if A-D = -3, with zero OffenseFactor and zero DefenseFactor, the damage dealt is at 90.99%. Add +6 A, you move to A-D = +3, and the damage dealt is at 109.90%. Overall relative increase is 20.78%. It turns out, the relative impact of +6 A is greater than 19.8% if 0>(A-D)>=-5 and less than 19.8% if (A-D)<-6. For example, if (D-A)=7, relative damage increase is 19.2%.
From the defender's pov:
If (D-A)=0 to begin with, +6 D reduces the damage from 100% to 83.5%, a 16.5% decrease. If (D-A)>0 to begin with, relative damage reduction decreases (diminishing returns). If (D-A)<0 to begin with though, +6 D brings returns in a non-linear fashion. 16.9% if (A-D)=1, 17.1% if (A-D)=2, 17.2% if (A-D)=3, 17.1% if (A-D)=4, 16.9% if (A-D)=5. At (A-D)=6, +6 D gives 16.5% damage reduction, and there are diminishing returns after that.
I hope with the above you see that:
1) What's important is relative marginal impact of each point of primary skill (not nominal impact), and both A and D behave similarly. Both their respective marginal relative impact max out at a range, and diminish to either end of the spectrum as (A-D)>0 increases, or (D-A)>0 increases.
2) If each level of the secondary skill should be roughly equivalent to +2 increase in the corresponding primary skill, then you should see that the impact of +6 A maxes out at about 21% damage increase, and +6 D maxes out at about 17.2% damage decrease. Hmm, where did I see those figures before? Right up there in my post where I propose that Expert Offense should increase damage by 21%, and Expert Defense should decrease damage by 17%.
3) So, yeah, I hope this proves my point and validates my proposal that if +6 A and +6 D are to be on equal footing, Expert Offense giving 21% is roughly equivalent to Expert Defense giving 17%, and that the current Defense bonuses are totally dominating Offense bonuses, and that one of the schemes in my post above should be used to balance them out.
4) If you reduce the 3.3% damage factor to 3% (please do), then the above calculations will shift a little. Expert Offense bonus would then need to be 19%, and Expert Defense bonus would need to be 16%. In detail, Offense bonuses would need to be 7 - 13 - 19, and Defense bonuses 7 - 11.5 - 16. Perfectly balanced. In this case, you should also reduce Luck bonus to 1.60.
|
|
strigvir
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 25, 2017 07:54 AM |
|
Edited by strigvir at 08:06, 25 Apr 2017.
|
I didn't read your posts thoroughly, but you for some reason assume that Offense = Defense. It would be the case if the combat was akin to homm4, but it's not and so the one who attacks first gets an upperhand. Thus, Defense have to counter the first attack, while Offense empowers it further.
EDIT: I would like to see Deflactor's exp patch in 5.5 though. With 8 skills the whole game feels like a grind for levels from start to end. If said patch can kill big reliance on witch huts and respecs, I am all for it, even if it can potentially make battle sites easier in the late game.
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 25, 2017 08:23 AM |
|
|
strigvir said:
I didn't read your posts thoroughly, but you for some reason assume that Offense = Defense. It would be the case if the combat was akin to homm4, but it's not and so the one who attacks first gets an upperhand. Thus, Defense have to counter the first attack, while Offense empowers it further.
You should really read my posts before commenting on them. I am not assuming anything and I sure know how H5 combat works. I am trying to balance the impact of Offense and Defense secondary skills on the damage outcome. If it wasn't clear, we are talking about the Offense of the attacker and the Defense of the defender.
More directly, I am trying to achieve this: If the attacker has Offense and the defender has Defense at the same skill level, then the damage modifications should cancel each other. For example, Expert Defense should nullify the damage bonus of Expert Offense. Vice versa, Advanced Offense should nullify the damage penalty of Advanced Defense. Currently, this is not achieved, and Defense is trumping Offense.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted April 25, 2017 10:23 AM |
|
|
Quote:
+6 A with (A-D)=0 to begin with increases damage by 19.8%
Ok I think it still wasn't clear what i meant:
if A-D = 0 then the value of Offense SECONDARY SKILL = 6A on melee
because 1.2 x 1 = 1.2
BUT
if A-D = 6 then the value of Offense SECONDARY SKILL is already more than 7A on melee
because 1.2 x 1.2 x 1 = 1.44 and NOT 1.4
So what I'm trying to tell you is you can't raise Offense over 20% because than it becomes more powerful than the invested slots allow.
So while offense can grow up to being worth 10A, with defense secondary skill it is the other way around, it is worth around 10D at the start but lowers in value the more D primary skill you have.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted April 25, 2017 10:30 AM |
|
|
Quote:
EDIT: I would like to see Deflactor's exp patch in 5.5 though. With 8 skills the whole game feels like a grind for levels from start to end. If said patch can kill big reliance on witch huts and respecs, I am all for it, even if it can potentially make battle sites easier in the late game.
Anyone can apply the patch right now, but my dilemma is I can make the patch only allow a few more levels and keep Rc9b balance as it is or I can redesign the balance and allow much more levels which is huge amount of work but has much more impact.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
