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| Thread: Magic System Balancing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 30, 2015 05:41 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 00:33, 09 Jul 2015.
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Magic System Balancing
Some thoughts on the system and individual spells so far. Much of it is subject to change and I am counting on it, this is why I am making this topic in the first place.
LIGHT
You know my thoughts on HEAL. It desperately needs a boost, preferably a damage boosting component like divine strength/bless was supposed to be. Not necessarily by improving unit attack but rather bridging the gap between min and max damage as used to be the traditional way. Damaging the undead is a crappy secondary effect because only 1/6 of the units are undead and healing the top unit is not very useful either. Healing a random negative effect would be acceptable but cleansing already does that, morale is part of Elrath's conviction, uplifting light and the haven racial and defense is also part of Elrath's conviction. The only effect that light magic does not currently improve is damage, hence my suggestion. Also initiative but fire and prime already do that so it's not very unique.
Heal got a minor resurrection effect in the beta.
With that in mind, perhaps it should swap places with celestial shield? Preventing damage is less powerful than a resurrecting effect, while the latter makes sense at a higher tier.
CLEANSING LIGHT apparently has no restrictions. This means that a might hero with basic light can effortlessly dispel stronger effects. I recommend that mastery and spellpower affect the chance of it dispelling a negative effect, otherwise it's plain broken.
Example:
Novice cleansing has a 60% chance to strip down tier 1 curses.
Expert cleansing has a 80% chance to strip down tier 1-2 curses.
Master cleansing has a 100% chance to strip down tier 1-3 curses.
-Hero caster and hero defender could influence the chance to dispel.
-It should not dispel tier 4 spells because that is plain ridiculous.
-This chance should be applied for each individual effect the target creature has.
SUNBURST seems fun but Master of Light III giving a 50% chance to blind(skip action or retaliation till end of next turn) may be too much.
Uplifting Light suggests that haven will be using light a lot and Chosen of the Light may turn out op. Something to keep an eye on.
WATER
Seems fine. Except VESSEL OF SHALASSA is going to be USELESS in most maps.. I would be happy if the spell could be made to not appear unless there is water content on the map or if there was an option to ban it in game creation.
FIRE
Only one complaint, there is absolutely no way to get an advantage when using ARMAGEDDON. There is no fire protection from skills, it does not hurt enemies more than you, not all factions have fire resistant/immune creatures and you cannot even take advantage of positioning when casting it. H5 had the brilliant idea to add a 2x2 area in the middle that took additional damage, I would like that back. Otherwise it's too situational to be of use in most games. By comparison, resurrection is ALWAYS useful.
Fire Mantle seems fun.
PRIME
As with cleansing, DISPEL is a very cheap way to remove everything regardless of caster potency. What I said on cleansing applies here.
As far as I know, SUMMON ELEMENTALS will not show you which elemental you will summon at any given time. That is plain ridiculous because you can never know if it is worth casting. There are times when you need a blocker and times when you need ranged support, when you need a small and when you need a large creature. I suggest that it works like with H3 faerie dragons, when you press the button to summon that you see what the summoned unit will be so that you can make the best of it. I forget if you can choose the summoning location but if not I find this an absolute MUST! Knowing which unit you will summon(after you click to summon) and selecting the location are absolutely necessary if we want this spell to have a tactical use.
TIME STASIS making the unit invulnerable to damage sounds kind of.. crappy? This is a tier 4 spell, just making a unit unable to act for a single turn is weak. Catatonic fear buff from face of fear making stacks lose retaliation for 2 turns is just as good if not better and it's only tier 2!
The prime ultimate does not seem top tier material either. Mana-free first spell and double regeneration in ultimate? Unless mana artifacts and magic wells are rare and spells are seriously expensive, I don't see this being any useful. In the past, long maps used to provide serious amounts of mana so I'm skeptical. The H6 meditation that restored spent mana AND boosted spellpower would have been more fitting.
EARTH
REGENERATION, like heal is crappy. I seriously recommend an hp buffing component so as to be better compared to stoneskin that is always useful. That would also support its primary regeneration function.
STONE SPIKES only affects 5 tiles! This is significantly less than fireball and circle of winter, making it much easier to avoid. Please increase its area of effect or make it a lot more damaging than the aforementioned spells.
There is one little problem. EARTH IS USELESS VS UNDEAD! Neither POISON SPRAY nor POISON CLOUD affect undead and constructs! This is a serious flaw for factions whose primary magic is earth, like sylvan. They really should rename them as acid spray/cloud and make them work with all units, like they did back in H6. The game does not have enough spell diversity to allow for such situational imbalances.
DARK
I am surprised that WEAKNESS and DESPAIR get 4x4 area of effect while the rest are at 3x3. Though this might be an oversight.
FACE OF FEAR is probably too good for its tier, especially with master of magic II. It would be reasonable to swap tiers with AGONY which.. is the exact copy of poison spray. If it is going to remain at tier 3 it should be a lot more damaging or have a secondary effect like physical vulnerability.
PURGE seems too situational compared to the awesome face of fear, it does not even have a mass version. Adding immunity to buffs is nice but..
SHADOW CLOAK missing 2 attacks might turn out a little weak. To be seen but what concerns me more is that it can effortlessly be removed by purge or dispel. Top tier spells should not be effortlessly stripped by tier 2 spells!
AIR
CYCLONE is sadly a lot more situational than Lightning Reflexes. Nice anti-turtling spell but that's about it. As a base spell it would be better if it already dealt air damage and master of air III boosted that damage and/or dazed them so as to take advantage of a magic hero's spellpower. Otherwise a might hero can use it to same effect, while it already is more useful for might heroes!
LIGHTNING REFLEXES is almost broken. Two attacks from a champion would be devastating and every hero that can get air has access to it. Even might heroes. But master of magic III allowing the second attack before enemy retaliation? Definition of OP!
Please make the second attack at x% of the original attack's power, with x% boosted by mastery and spellpower.
Not much more to say before I can try the beta. Please use this topic to record your observations of what is wrong with this magic system or the way some spells work.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 30, 2015 05:50 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 17:51, 30 May 2015.
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Also, an observation on metamagic.
Clarity with area synergy is probably the most abusable combination in the game. To get magic synergy you must first have a magic effect on a unit. Mass effect spells can affect multiple units even if they no longer affect every unit. My point is, imagine casting a 3x3 mass or 4x4 spell followed by armageddon on the second turn. Even if the mass spell affects three units, then you have three times a 50% chance to cast again which almost certainly means two armageddons in one turn. And guess what, academy gargoyles are magic immune!
Enjoy 
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markmasters
Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted May 30, 2015 06:30 PM |
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Nice topic well written. I give more comments soon but right now short of time: regarding time statis, you call it weak but have you seen the possibilities? You can lock down an entrance with a unit blocking for example, at the end of round cast on stack you want to preserve, armegeddon after, safe your surrounded tank fron tsunami and much much more
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 30, 2015 07:35 PM |
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That's of limited usefulness if it's just one turn duration. I don't see that being anywhere close to resurrection or chain lightning.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 30, 2015 08:05 PM |
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Good topic but I don't really feel there's much I can contribute. This magic system leaves me completely indifferent because all the schools are just so similar. It feels like it will be the same as Heroes 6 skills: I'll look down the list and then just pick one randomly because it seems the choice between one and the other doesn't really make much difference on the game. I do agree about the Summon Elementals spell, however, it seems almost ironic that one of the few benefits of separating the elements into separate magic schools - namely the fact that it offers an easy way to control which element is summoned - is not being put to use in the game, which I guess pretty well sums up my entire impression of H7 in a nutshell.
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What will happen now?
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted May 30, 2015 08:43 PM |
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I find it weird that the best spells are considered Unskilled or Novice, while the end spells are mostly direct damage. A repeat of the blood mage mistake from H6? A strategy game is supposed to be won by the one with the most complex and intelligent strategy, not with lightning bolts and chain lightnings.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted May 30, 2015 09:57 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 31 May 2015. |
Edited by TDL at 22:11, 30 May 2015.
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Honestly, I've been meaning to have a discussion about the current spell / skill system (largely because they have become indiscernible of late). Sad as it may seem, it doesn't seem likely they will bring about changes to the system (safe for balancing). But I thought I'd still give it a shout.
LIGHT MAGIC
Since I'm far from used to what was in store in H6 (in actuality, I have reasonably little knowledge about it), Light Magic seems rather new to me in most regards, since it's now more or less oriented towards dealing (retributory) damage to the evil denizens of Ashan. Also quaint seems the notion to reduce the amount of spells which save the lives of units/bless them.
About the spell system itself...
Elrath's Conviction, along with Arkath's Blessing, feels like a breath of fresh air, as we desperately need more Adventure Map spells. However, the air is in fact fairly foul as the spells seemingly force us into more micromanagement (which is counter-intuitive as they bring back features such as area of control, instant creature recall, etc.). Even if they add an auto-cast feature on start of the day or after each combat, provided there are enough spell points, it feels like a little bit too much micro-management for my liking.
Onto more pressing matters, to a certain extent I approve of everything Elvin has said so far about Heal. In my eyes, dealing damage to the undead is a nice idea, however, but it could do with some more tweaking: creatures aligned with Inferno (not present yet, I know, but we can all dream...), Necropolis and, especially, Dungeon should be harmed. I know, it might seem somewhat blasphemous since in spite of their states, both Inferno and Dungeon qualify as living, thus can be resurrected, but it would be both more logical lore-wise and physically (?) - after all, denizens of the underdark are vulnerable to light by nature.
Otherwise, I could see the spell be merged with Cleansing to also remove negative effects and/or remove positive effects from enemies and/or increase initiative/morale.
Either way, I think Heal should be level 2 and Cleansing should be level 1. Additionally, I'd like the latter to be spellpower-dependent, much like Elvin said before me. However, I guess I'd rather the spell shortened the duration of the negative spell effects (or lowered the damaging effect) rather than fail altogether, but I wouldnt mind it any other way.
To complement my above statement, it just doesn't seem rational to have two direct-damage spells in the same tier. If Heal is unchanged, Sun Beam should be moved to level 2 in place of another spell, because of the additional 50% chance for blinding, courtesy of the Master of Light level I, UNLESS they reduce the percentage or make it based on your spellpower (see what I've done there?).
Also, to note is the missing Bless spell. Having it merged with the GM skill feels inadequate, both because it might be difficult to strike balance and the fact the basic "unit deals max damage for X turns" effect is not in. The GM ability pretty much feels like the spell "Prayer" in h4.
Sunburst, Retribution and Resurrection seem good, all subject to balancing of course. However, I wouldn't mind seeing Retribution at "Unskilled". Why? Firstly, I feel light shouldn't have direct damage spells at level 1. A blessing that deals damage seems more intuitive. Based on the current system, I'd rather see Celestial Armor moved up a bit and retribution lowered, purely because of Light Magic's inherent orientation towards SAVING lives, not taking them.
From a balancing standpoint, it should be:
Level 1
Elrath's Conviction
Sun Beam (with lower spellpower-based chance of blinding)
Cleansing Light (with chance to dispel positive effects on dark-aligned units)
Level 2
Heal (with a bonus to initiative/morale for next round and/or "bless-like" max damage effect)
Retribution or Celestial Armor
Level 3
Celestial Armor or Retribution
Sun Burst
Level 4
Resurrection
By my suggestion, the Master of Light would then:
Level 1: add 3x3/4x4 area of effect to Cleansing, add the chance to dispel positive effects on dark-aligned units if not a part of basic spell effects; add the chance to blind via sun beam directly proportional to spell power (smth like 25% + 1% or 2% per spell power?).
Level 2: add 3x3 area effect to Heal, add the max-damage/+% to damage/initiative buff if not a part of basic spell effects; (if level 2) add 3x3 area of effect to Celestial Armor;
Level 3: add the chance to blind via Sun Burst directly proportional to spell power (smth like 25% + 1% per spell power; the percentage should be on average lower than sun beams for each individual unit, but naturally would potentially affect more units); (if level 3) add 3x3 area of effect to Celestial Armor, it additionally increases target's defense while it is active; Retribution acts like a curse - upon attacking the blessed friendly target, the enemy target receive damage on any subsequent attacks irrespective of target for a number of turns (halve the damage dealt every time it attacks unless it attacks the blessed target again)
WATER MAGIC
After quite a cumbersome review and potential changes for the Light Magic spells/skills, I'm pleased to say there are way fewer... flaws?... in the Water Magic school. I'm glad Vessel of Shalassa found its rightful place, but I also agree the chance to get denied a proper spell might be a bummer. That said, the school is directly opposite of Light Magic; where the unskilled spells essentially allow you to deal damage, Water spells have none. Fog Shroud seems more in line with the Air Magic school, but I don't mind it.
Blizzard's effects seem a little vague: does it work as a direct debuff or does it affect units passing through a certain area on the map. Either way, judging by its lack of damage spells, I would rather see Blizzard deal some damage overtime or as the units make their move (ie, a ranged unit could attack even though he was affected, but he would not receive damage, unless it moved). That would require some switcharoo as it would be too strong of an effect as an unskilled spell, but IMHO it wouldn't be difficult - just move Ice Bolt to unskilled and Blizzard to Novice. It might feel a clone of Fire magic though.
Other than that, the spells seem OK. The sad thing about the school is that it feels rather boring: essentially all the spells deal with affecting the movement. I'd rather have Water Magic debuffs work in tandem with some sort of added vulnerability. For example, "Deep Freeze" would leave the target vulnerable to fire/light damage, we'd need a "Soaked" effect, which would leave the target vulnerable to earth/lightning.
FIRE MAGIC
I find it kind of ironic how Fire Magic inherently became Light Magic and vice versa. More blessings in Fire, former Fire Shield returning a Retribution in Light. However, much like Water Magic, the school seems OK, even if it lacks some uniqueness. It actually looks directly proportional to Water Magic, in all aspects, from what the skills add to spell effects to the spell distribution.
I do find, as aforementioned, Blessing of Arkath slightly distasteful for its implied micromanagement. Also, Frenzy's been changed from what I remember (Berserk) and I'm not entirely happy with the key change that it does not consume the target's action and does not trigger a retaliation. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it as is, IF the Master of Fire level 3 or even the GM modified the effect, so that it does. Its relative usability in comparison to debuffs in Light and Water seems slightly lesser.
PRIME MAGIC
Now, since I have no idea what prime was constructed of in the past, it feels like an amalgamation of Order and Chaos magic schools from H4, safe for the spells with elemental effects.
In general, I like the spells, however, I agree with all of the negative points about the spells, so I will go through them one by one.
First off, the adventure map spells seem too useful to be unskilled. Unless the trigger to have them at your disposal is worth a hefty investment, it feels cheap (as in Instant Recall town-portal-esque can be abused, as does Instant Reinforcements, as someone rightfully said, by placing the hero next to a mana well). I'd rather have it deplete your action for the day to offset the usability, unless, for example, the amount of units depends on tier/hp and there are severe restrictions. Might seem counter-intuitive to my hatred for micromanagement, but alas, I'd rather have balance.
Secondly, the spells are completely imbalanced. Knowing HOW useful the spells used to be in the cast, by assembling them into one school makes it tough to find balance. I do see reason in them trying to make Time Control - Haste and Slow combined - available to everyone without the skills, but the spell itself feels FAR FAR FAR too effective to just be casually cast by novice heroes. Much the same way, Teleport is too strong to be a novice spell. In turn, if we make Dispel work in a similar way to what I suggested with Cleansing, it will be easier to balance it out, as rightfully pointed out by Elvin, and it could easily drop down a level. I'd like it to have more of a chance-based modifier though (reduction of the effect/duration), since Dispel literally saps the unit of any magical effects.
At the other end of the spectrum, again I'd call for a reorder in order to make it work. Implosion has most commonly been the highest single-target damage spell in the game, and so it should be, as a Master spell. The traction effect is nice, but it only enforces my idea of Implosion as a Master spell as I feel this will also enable creatures to flank the moved units easier. In effect, Time Stasis is too weak to be a Master level spell, especially since spells such as Sun Beam have a chance of making its target miss a turn and the unit cannot be attacked or harmed in any way. Summon Elemental could be either a novice or expert level spell, depending on how it's handled. I liked the approach in H5 where it was based on terrain, but I wouldn't mind Elvin's way either. Knowing what and where will appear is a must to adhere!
Finally, the ultimate skill is useless. Even the naming does not feel like it belongs to Prime school - "Shadow of Dread" feels like a Dark magic skill...
All in all... my suggested workaround...
Level 1
Instant Recall (uses up action/movement points in addition to or in place of mana)
Instant Reinforcements (uses up action/movement points in addition to or in place of mana)
Reveal Treasure (uses up action/movement points in addition to or in place of mana)
Fortune
Dispel
Level 2
Time Control
Time Stasis (only move it to level 3 IF it also applies the effect of time control for a shortened duration with Master of Prime)
Level 3
Teleport
Summon Elemental
Level 4
Implosion
By my suggestion, the Master of Prime would then:
Level 1: add 3x3/4x4 area of effect to Dispel and Fortune.
Level 2: add 3x3/4x4 area effect to Time Control; Time Stasis applies the effect of Time Control on the target at half its potency (or until the unit takes action).
Level 3: casting Teleport applies the effect of Time Control at half its potency and/or makes the target unit be the first in line to execute its action (if cast not on active unit, the target unit moves to the pole position on ATB); Summon Elemental adds additional creatures at the start of new turn at half its original potency.
Level 4: implosion deals x% damage a second time at the beginning of next round with an y distance; adds a chance to trigger (or triggers 100%) Time Control debuff on all affected creatures and/or adds a chance to trigger Time Stasis debuff;
I find it kind of difficult to think of a unique effect for the grandmaster (and it is not my goal to dish out proposals), but since I envision implosion as the top level spell, any ability has to have the additional effect of improving implosion.
DARK MAGIC
Balancing issues aside, this is the best school by default. I agree with the necessity to swap Agony and Face of Fear. Additionally, much like with Dispel and Cleansing, Purge should be moved to a lower tier and have a chance-based effect.
I'm also interested in how Malassa's Temptation works: does it trigger diplomacy/fear/charm? Quite a nifty little spell, but I'm inclined to think it will once again trigger the necessity of micromanagement.
AIR MAGIC
Mmm... my favorite type of magic. I'm not overly satisfied with how Water Magic had some inherently air-based spells (IMHO all elemental spells should be in one school), but the way I see it, Air Magic actually benefits from it.
Since Air Shield's gone, changed by a somewhat altered version of Fog Shroud, Storm Arrows seems a decent enough alternative. Apart from the usual suspects, I like Ylath's Clairvoyance, but ironically I feel it is the most important adventure map spell of any elemental school, especially versus a human opponent, if it works on the whole map. Sadly, very few innovative adventure map effects are included (ie, nature could do with natural blocks on the map).
EXTREMELY happy to Lightning Reflexes return (Cat Reflexes in H4), though I somewhat expected this in Fire Magic. Not too sure about the balancing, but you can't have two master level spells in a school. I dread seeing this spell if it's available for Academy since with magic synergy I just can't bear to think what would happen with multiple rakshassa/titan attacks.
It would be fun to see Cyclone dealt some damage. It would be fun if it worked similarly to Poison Cloud, where it expanded or moved across the battlefield. Or triggered the "Shocked" effect Lighning Bolt triggers. I feel there's some untapped potential.
Sad to see air magic have no effects which would render ranged units or attacks through certain tiles/@ certain units weak/obsolete.
EARTH MAGIC
Left the worst for last...
Ironically, I would have expected to see more buffs in this school (DRAGON STRENGTH!). I'm fully in accordance with Elvin on Regeneration, Poison Spray and Poison Cloud, however, again it all is subject to rebalancing. I'd actually like Regeneration to have a resurrection effect, but if heal does not do that, Regen shouldn't either. Improving hit points is an option.
Entangle seems rather useless in comparison to Blizzard which affects multiple units and doesn't require any skills (unless I am missing something). I'd rather see it on Level 1, even with the added effect of damage. However, I do not see either Stone Skin or Regeneration making it to level 2.
Poison Cloud's description seems to be faulty, unless it is the developers who made it seem completely irrational. How is it poisonous if it only deals damage ONCE and does not trigger the effect Poison Spray does. God I love this word, but it's completely counter-intuitive. Also, the latter spell has its duration increased upon picking Skill Mastery which I find rather useless. In most cases, skill mastery equates to area of effect, whereas we have the former AOE spell behave very similarly to how the latter would behave with a 3x3/4x4 effect. That won't do. IMHO, the spell is meaningless altogether.
Aaaand, combine it with the fact that we have two direct damage spells in expert level, Agony in dark magic which is the same as poison spray, it seems all the more obsolete. Earthquake undoubtedly needs to be level 4, unless we introduce some Sylanna's Strength sort of spell in place of the Oort Cloud which drastically increases HP/damage output or something, similarly to H4's Dragon Strength (100% to damage/HP). Otherwise, Stone Spikes should be a novice spell, but that wouldn't make much sense.
All in all, I disapprove of this school. It needs reworking.
I outlined some key elements in bold as tl;dr, since I know this is quite a hefty lump of text.
Overall, I like that there are more adventure map spells but they feel scarce and call for the return of micromanagement. Spells, overall, seem few, and I miss the mass effects for spells. Also, the majority of them are repetitive or simply have an effect that essentially duplicates another (see Liquid Membrane for damage reduction and Celestial Armor, Agony and Poison Spray). Other than that... I believe my suggestions for tweaks do not require too many workarounds and might actually benefit the game in the short run.
Even though, despite some apparent improvements over H6, I still find the spell system faulty.
@kayna: I wholeheartedly agree with you about some of the most useful spells being unskilled, but the whole tree seems imbalanced. Other than that, what you said about the damage spells is that it shows one of the major flaws of the system as a whole. In making the spell system more spread out, they actually decreased the number of highest level spells, which is why we see damage spells as most top spells.
Personally, I would not find it an issue, because I actually feel that at least the elemental schools should have one direct-damage spells as one of the top spells in a school. But much like with the tiered system, I'd prefer a 4-4-2 over 3-3-1, I'd rather see 4-3-3-2 in terms of spells.
Such spells as chain lightning, implosion, earthquake feel like a staple of the top level, but we'd always see some other spell crop up alongside them. And with proper balancing, spells such as Blizzard or Cyclone could actually be there up with them, provided some tactical alternatives were presented.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 09:27 AM |
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 10:17 AM |
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I'm not normally one to discuss "balance" or my understanding thereof, but when I consider that Time Control acts as a simultaneous buff AND debuff to friendlies and foes respectively, the "Master of" enhancements 4x4 zone makes me concerned. Depending on how bunched troops are in a particular area, one could increase the initiative of a potentially large number of troops right next to a potentially large number with lowered initiative. That could really stack the odds in the caster's favour - I'm worried that it might even be a game-breaker, especially since it could be accessed so early.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 10:22 AM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 31, 2015 01:05 PM |
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markmasters said:
regarding time statis, you call it weak but have you seen the possibilities? You can lock down an entrance with a unit blocking for example, at the end of round cast on stack you want to preserve, armegeddon after, safe your surrounded tank fron tsunami and much much more
A more indepth explanation on my post before: This spell should decide if it wants to act like H6 petrification or H6 time stasis. Petrification could work as a buff and as a curse of sorts but its duration was not so short. It was mostly used as a buff to buy you time to cast more destructive/control/summoning spells but this is not possible with 1 turn. The only advantage it had as a curse was that it could not be dispelled(unless you exploited mass dispel bug) but that was poor design to begin with, time stasis was a lot better. I appreciate its dual nature but it's a good if situational buff and a mediocre curse. In H7 I don't see how it can compare to resurrection or chain lightning. All tier 4 spells are somewhat situational but this one could use some improvement.
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mammothhunter
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 31, 2015 01:59 PM |
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Why bashing on poison cloud? It was awful the way it was in H6. That it does not affect undead and constructs actually means undead and occasionally mages are supposed to use it most. Spiderpolis is going to play with poison cloud, guaranteed, they will have access to earth magic. Cast it under the feet of your troops and where all the fighting is going, and enjoy every hostile stack taking massive damage.
What I do not understand is how Sylvan is supposed to use it, by sending lonely dragon to tank in the cloud? Its hard to judge without knowing anything about Sylvan though. Some orks like earth magic too.
Poison spray can perhaps be made more unique by turning it into a strong single target debuff. Make it decrease initiative and damage of the target stack in addition to damage per turn. Damage reduction % based to be different from weakness spell. Similarly to how liquid membrane is relatively strong single target buff.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 31, 2015 02:04 PM |
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When your top tier favoured spell is 100% useless vs a faction something must be wrong with the balancing.
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mammothhunter
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 31, 2015 02:07 PM |
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Aren't everyone asking for diversity and more complex gameplay? Word of light and curse of the netherworld also come to mind.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 31, 2015 03:02 PM |
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Very bad spells, considering their situational nature and especially compared to their traditional alternatives. Imo they should have been moved to a lower tier, taken out of the mage guilds and maybe rebalanced a bit so as to be more useful overall. They would work much better if unlocked through light and dark magic skills respectively.
They would not have been as problematic if each element had 3-4 spells per tier but this is not gonna happen with 7 magic schools. That did not even happen when we had 4.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 04:15 PM |
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The spells are just plain bad. I thought adventure map spells were going to be cool but each spell school has to have its own so most of them are complete garbage. The spell schools don't even make any difference, it only depends on the faction/class you pick. Just more things they tie us down with in their screwed up skill system.
I mostly play might heroes and I really don't see any point in using magic whatsoever. I'd use the haste/slow spell and stone skin but that's about it. No bless...No bloodlust...No shield...Instead light magic gets a fancy name for magic arrow to go with all the other fancy named magic arrows in the other schools. And this is probably because they're trying to force might heroes to always use warcries, always trying to increase X stat by Y amount. I don't even think I have seen the words 'Max' or 'Min' damage in any descriptions.
I just put the spells on Par with the skill system. So I agree with JJ.
Lost cause.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 31, 2015 04:22 PM |
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bleh
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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mammothhunter
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 31, 2015 04:23 PM |
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@Elvin
They say, that making this magic system too uniform hurts it, and I would rather agree on this. Now you imply that NOT making it uniform and balanced also hurts it (.
Is there any saving of this system at all? More spells per rank could definitly help but I'm certain we won't see this on release.
No I do not believe top rank spell is "supposed to be" anything, in the name of balance. This just makes the whole thing more boring.
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 05:55 PM |
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I agree with almost all of your points except one, and that is Lightening Reflexes. I have pointed out that Haven units will attack twice nearly every turn with increased damage, defense, initiative and speed and with 8 instead of 7 units throughout every match in a previous thread of mine. All of their skills from novice to master are aimed at this. While noone saw this as a problem, I don't know why an Expert spell which will require lots of mana and grant this buff only to that single creature and only for one turn seems like a problem.
The problem with Shadow Cloak can be solved by making the spell both invisible to the enemy and impossible to be cleansed. I think a Master spell deserves that exception.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 31, 2015 05:58 PM |
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I must agree I also don't see the Earth Magic vs. Necropolis as such a big issue. True, they are unique to your direct damage spells - with exception of Stone Spikes, notice - and if you play against Necro and want to focus on direct damage, then you should take another school. Like I've said above also, my main gripe with this system is that schools are too similar, so anything that makes one school stand out is a positive in my book. When all that's said, I think one could advocate for moving Poison Cloud down to level 3 and then have another spell as level 4 instead, thus partially circumventing the problem.
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What will happen now?
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