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| Thread: Magic System Balancing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 01, 2015 08:48 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I nominate this post for a QP. 
I second this.
What was wrong with the balance concept of heroes3? No, it wasn't well balanced in the end but the concept was solid. All schools had some of every type of spell, be it direct damage, buffs, debuffs or utility. each with a thematic focus based on its element with earth focusing on slowing and stopping enemies and fortifying allies and fire focusing on large area damage and making allies stronger/angrier. There was a balance in that (even if it didn't turn out so in the end). Really doesn't look like that's the case with stuff like earth, as has been pointed out, doesn't appear to have any real way of dealing with necropolis and is severely weakened against academy. This wasn't a problem before, even in h6.
Give Implosion to earth, dammit! 
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 01, 2015 09:13 PM |
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properkheldar said:
But its hard to asses earth magic before seeing Sylvans racial skills and final creature abilities. Im guessing it will have synnergy effects like light magic with haven.
Magic schools should never be synergized with one faction.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 01, 2015 09:45 PM |
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Gryphs said:
properkheldar said:
But its hard to asses earth magic before seeing Sylvans racial skills and final creature abilities. Im guessing it will have synnergy effects like light magic with haven.
Magic schools should never be synergized with one faction.
You bet? check H5 Heaven + light in the late game.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 01, 2015 11:03 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 23:03, 01 Jun 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
alcibiades said:
I nominate this post for a QP.
I second this.
You second a nomination for a QP on a post of your own? 
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 01, 2015 11:08 PM |
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Ah, but a moderator was the original nominator.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted June 02, 2015 01:59 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Ah, but a moderator was the original nominator.
A moderator nominating a single sentence. 
If that "nomination" goes through, the moderators are officially corrupt and the QPs will mean nothing.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 02, 2015 05:31 AM |
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Someone has a sense of humour 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 02, 2015 08:16 PM |
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Kimarous said:
A moderator nominating a single sentence.
It was a pretty good sentence.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 02, 2015 08:32 PM |
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One single sentence dragging so many replies.
Let's get back to our topic, shall we?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 03, 2015 03:20 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 03:18, 04 Jun 2015.
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Ok I want to propose something here. First of all, I want to advocate a 3/3/2/2 spell system, as well as the return of the mass casting ability.
I replaced some (most) spells, and am fully aware that what I post here is far from being perfect but is rather an attempt to provide more variety and also get back in game some spells I like in MMH7.
Unlike the topic's name, this is not a proper balancing but rather a rethinking of spells which could be used. All in all, could just be considered as another POV which of course can be further improved (much), and hopefully maybe something eventually satisfying most could be agreed on.
Please don't read too much in the descriptions.
LIGHT
Unskilled
-Elrath's conviction
The hero gets a buff increasing Leadership and Defense.
- Bless
Causes the selected friendly unit to inflict more damage in combat. Spellpower determines the duration of effect.
- Heal
Heal cures target of a number of hit points based on the level of the caster.
Novice
- Holy Word
Holy Word does damage to a single evil-affiliated target based on the level of the caster.
- Celestial Armor
When cast on a friendly target, Celestial Armor increases its Melee and Ranged Defense by X% (value depends on level of caster).
- Mirth
Mirth gives target maximum morale for X turns (depending on level of caster).
Expert
- Prayer
Bestows a bonus to the attack strength, defense strength and speed of the selected unit for X turns.
- Retribution
Every time the creature takes damage from another creature, deals light damage to the source of the damage.
Master
- Mass Bless
Mass Bless causes all friendly targets to do maximum damage.
- Mass Heal
Mass Healing cures all friendly targets of a number of points of damage based on the level of the caster.
WATER
Unskilled
- Vessel of Shalassa
A ship is created on a random adjacent water tile.[...]
- Ice bolt
Ice Bolt does a number of points of cold damage based on the level of the caster to a single target within the line of sight of the caster.
- Blizzard
In a 4x4 area every stack gets a movement reduction debuff for one turn when starting their turn.
Novice
- Cure
Removes all negative spell effects (spells which can be removed depends on the level of the caster, ie Novice hero can remove Novice lvl spell but can't remove Master level spell) on the selected unit.
- Blur
Blur obscures the target's true position, increasing its Ranged Defense by X%.
- Ice Strike
Target creatures gets the buff freezing strike, when ever this creature attacks or retaliates it deals additional water damage.
Expert
- Circle of Winter
Deals ice damage to all units surrounding the target spot.
- Deep Freeze
Freezes the target, immediately inflicting ice damage and causing it to suffer increased physical damage during a certain amount of time due to frostbites.
Master
- Tsunami
Target area 5x entire width of the battlemap: damage and relocate all non-flyers away from your hero.
- Mass Blur
Mass Blur obscures the true position of all friendly targets, increasing their Ranged Defense by X%.
AIR
Unskilled
- Ylath's Clairvoyance
Reveals a target circular area with radius of X tiles around selected zone.
- Magic arrow
Causes a bolt of magical energy to strike the selected unit.
- Haste
Increases the speed of the selected unit for X turns (depending on level of caster).
Novice
- Gust of Wind
Pushes targeted creature X tiles away in any straight line or Y in diagonal directions.
- Lightning bolt
Targets enemy creature stack gets X Air magic damage, depending on the level of the caster.
- Precision
Increases the ranged attack damage inflicted by the selected unit.
Expert
- Cyclone
All creatures in target area are randomly relocated to unblocked tiles in the target area and the concentric X*X area around. Every affected creature is changing its facing to a random direction.
- Lightning reflexes
Targeted friendly unit receives an additional strike for next melee attack. If the enemey retaliates, the extra strike is executed after this one.
Master
- Chain Lightning
Deals massive lightning damage to several adjacent creatures (up to 4), starting with the selected one. Every next creature in the chain gets the half of the damage inflicted to the previous one. (The chain can hit the own creatures).
- Mass Haste
Increases the speed of all friendly stacks for X turns (depending on level of caster).
EARTH
Unskilled
- Sylanna's Bounty
Targeted sawmill or ore pit's production rate is doubled for X days.
- Shield
Shields a selected unit, reducing the amount of damage received from hand-to-hand attacks for X turns (depending on level of caster).
- Slow
Reduces the speed of the selected enemy unit for X turns (depending on level of caster).
Novice
- Stoneskin
Increases the selected unit's defense strength for X turns (depending on level of spellcaster).
- Quicksand
Randomly places four small patches of quicksand on the battlefield which are only visible to the caster and creatures native to the terrain. Walking into quicksand ends a unit's movement for the turn and makes it visible to all.
- Stone spikes
Deals earth damage to all creatures in target area (cross form).
Expert
- Force field
Places a small Force Field on the battlefield centered at a point specified by the caster.
- Earthquake
Randomly damages two sections of castle wall in combat and deals X damage to adjacent creatures
Master
- Mass Shield
Shields all friendly stacks, reducing the amount of damage received from hand-to-hand attack for X turns.
- Mass Slow
Reduces the speed of all enemy stacks for X turns.
FIRE
Unskilled
- Blessing of Arkath
Deals damage to enemy stacks at the beginning of the next combat.
- Fire bolt
Single target damage.
- Bloodlust
Increases the hand-to-hand damage inflicted by the selected unit for X turns (depending on the level of the caster).
Novice
- Fire wall
Places a wildfire on the battlefield which size is dependent on the caster centered at a point specified by the caster. Any units passing through the wall takes damage.
- Land mine
Randomly places four small areas of landmines on the battlefield which are only visible to the caster. It inflicts damage to any unit walking over it.
- Fire Shield
Cast on a friendly unit, it does not provide any additional protection, but any enemy attacking through the fire shield will suffer damage. Damage inflicted will depend on the level of the caster.
Expert
- Frenzy
The targeted unit will randomly attack the nearest unit, be it friend or foe.
- Fire ball
Deals fire damage to all units in the target area (3x3).
Master
- Inferno
Deals fire damage to all units in the target area (5x5).
- Armageddon
Rains fire down upon the battlefield, damaging all units.
DARK
Unskilled
- Malassa's temptation
The change for negociations with neutral armies is increased.
- Despair
Targeted enemy creature's moral is decreased for X turns (depending on level of caster.
- Weakness
Reduces the selected enemy unit's attack strength for X turns (depending on level of caster).
Novice
- Agony
Targeted enemy creature receives Dark Magic damages at the beginning of its turn (3 turns).
- Purge
Removes X random positive magic effects from the target stack.
- Disrupting ray
Reduces the selected enemy unit's defense strength. A single enemy may be targeted multiple times by this spell.
Expert
- Forgetfulness
Causes the selected enemy unit to forget to use its ranged attack in combat for X turns.
- Curse
Causes the selected enemy unit to inflict minimum damage in combat for X turns.
Master
- Shadow Cloak
The next two attacks (melee, ranged, retaliation or hero attack) automatically miss the targeted creature (dealing no damage and triggering no effects).
- Mass Weakness
Reduces all enemy stacks attack strength for X turns.
PRIME
Unskilled
- Instant recall
In addition to normal spell setup, granted by a special town building, returns hero to nearest town with a town portal building.
- Fortune
Increases the selected unit's luck for X turns (depending on level of caster).
- Misfortune
Decreases the selected unit's luck for X turns (depending on level of caster).
Novice
- Dispel Magic
Removes all effects on targeted stack.
- Remove obstacle
Removes any normal obstacle (trees, rocks, etc.) of the caster's choice from the battlefield. Can be cast once per combat only.
- Teleport
Moves friendly stack on the battlefield.
Expert
- Phantom forces
Summons a copy of target stack (size determined by skill rank). When summoned stack receives any damage it is destroyed completely.
- Implosion
Inflicts massive damage to a single creature stack.
Master
- Hypnotize
Puts an enemy unit temporarily under your control.
- Summon Elementals
Summons a random elemental stack. Stack size is dependent on hero's level.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted June 03, 2015 03:55 PM |
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The problem your proposal brings about Galaad is the one I, along with Elvin, outlined on page 1. In spite of improving it in the sense that more spells are added, the spells themselves at certain situations become even less desirable because of their nuanced situational use.
I commend the idea of returning Bless, but again Heal will be much inferior to it. And removing Exorcism from light at all doesn't feel suitable.
Mass spells I am in favour of and while talking to Elvin, he actually said "But they are in game!". Alas, in my book, AOE spell "massiveness" does not constitute a true "mass" spell.
In fact, I'd like "Mass" effects to be obtainable with abilities/masteries. However, Mass Bless/Mass Heal as Master spells (and no resurrection) seems unfavourable (it applies to most schools you suggest). Also, I'm not exactly in favour of the H4 approach to mass spells, especially if we consider that you want some at the highest level in place of some better spells.
However, I commend you for some creativity: I like Blur spell, but I'd rather see it in Air. Forgetfulness making a return is fun. Remove obstacle might actually be extremely usable in this incarnation of Heroes, but alas, I'd rather it be in Earth. Hypnotize is fun, but also very imba.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 03, 2015 04:07 PM |
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When they announced they changed to four levels of Magic School, I expected a fair number of spells in each level. Instead level 4 gets reduced to one single spell per School...that's so disappointing
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 03, 2015 09:45 PM |
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Mass spells are now in the warcry department. They belong there - in previous installments, might heroes had to take a magic school just for basic mass spells. A whole-army buff/debuff technically works like a might skill (better hero stat).
Magic spells should be specific and situational - targeting a single creature or a specific area on the battlefield, but have a decisive effect there. I like the decision to have only AoE spells.
The spells can be tweaked, but there is the problem of the new system - there are so few spells that they can't simultaneously make all magic schools balanced, interesting, and give them a specific flavor. There is a 2-2-2-1 system now if adventure spells are taken out. If all schools and tiers should be useful and balanced, spells are repetitive, and if they are interesting, they are situational, so one needs more. With one additional spell per tier, balancing and flavor would come much more naturally.
Adventure spells: they are all tier-0, accessible to everybody. Do they benefit from school mastery? Otherwise, their assignment to spell schools is meaningless, except for the chance to appear in guilds. They might as well have kept a separate adventure-spell category. Granted, adventure spell were a problem in any Heroes version.
Instant recall and reinforcements look like they should be higher-level spells. (Using them requires some resources, however.)
Other high-level spells are missing, which is good - game breakers.
In short, a 7-school system (actually 8 or 9 if you count warcries and separate adventure) is odd with this low number of entries. But, I don't play beta - is this just theory, or does it feel like that in the game?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 03, 2015 09:52 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 03:17, 04 Jun 2015.
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@TDL
Thanks for your reply. I personally never had a problem with the H4 approach to mass spells (even if the h3 system is my fav) but you are obviously right to contest it here as we already don't have much spells available, what was I thinking ... 
It is true however that in every iteration there is some more or less useless spells, but I was contesting the system originally planned for H7 as some of my all time favourite spells are missing from the list, and I am not convinced at all by what has been lastly revealed.
You bring up problem of some spells being imba such as Hypnotize, but against any kind of balance issue I want to reply: H3 and H5 are far from being perfectly balanced games, yet it is a feeling shared by I think a lot of people that they are the most fun to play, so, is balance that crucial for a successful game, especially Heroes? Isn't injustice and unpredictability much more fun than overused (and somewhat dull) strategies one is bound to repeat time and again in order to win?
Lastly, I think that even if there always has been some must have spells, some others can always find some use in some situations, a small buff or debuff in a tight early-game battle in example already made the difference didn't it?
Edit
And btw I wouldn't mind at all having Remove Obstacle in Earth or Blur in Air ofc ...
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 04, 2015 06:41 PM |
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icefield said:
In short, a 7-school system (actually 8 or 9 if you count warcries and separate adventure) is odd with this low number of entries. But, I don't play beta - is this just theory, or does it feel like that in the game?
Very interesting post,
I would like as you, ressources been used to upgrade catapult, first aid power, destroy and rebuilt structure on map. Instead of that they focus on more and more abilties.. more specialization... mecanics had never been so poor for now.
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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 05, 2015 03:24 AM |
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Why has no one complained about the lack of Meteor Shower yet? I'd expect to see it in a lot of the suggested spell lists but haven't so far.
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"An Elf can take out a Ranger
any day of the week, but they
prefer to do it on weekends so
they can stay up late and catch
a show afterwards." -H2 tavern
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted June 09, 2015 03:25 PM |
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I still dunno why game designers ALWAYS fail to analyze these imbalances when here in the community we ALWAYS have better proposals. It's like if they even didn't play it.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2015 04:21 PM |
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I dunno if it's a bug but implosion does ridiculously low damage atm.
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mammothhunter
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 09, 2015 06:55 PM |
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xerox said:
I dunno if it's a bug but implosion does ridiculously low damage atm.
Implosion damage is % based, spell like this is most effective against huge packs of high tier creatures. It's situational, and also utility depends on the actual % number. It can be good OP one, remember King's Bounty soul drain. Dunno how it would work in the current Heroes environment though.
If it fails, one possible workaround is to make it partially flat prime damage and partially percent based. Flat part - to be able to kill small packs of low-tiers.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 09, 2015 07:34 PM |
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Galaad said:
Isn't injustice and unpredictability much more fun than overused (and somewhat dull) strategies one is bound to repeat time and again in order to win?
Sometimes I think how prideful it is to have the enemy cast such powerful spell, but you manage to make a work-around it and defeat the enemy. Say they casted Hypnotize, you could reply by casting Berserk, especially if it is near the enemy troops.
If that isn't balance, then magic resistance should come in handy.
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