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| Thread: I had another suggestion for the devs - wonder what you think about it |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 08:49 PM |
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I had another suggestion for the devs - wonder what you think about it
Probably everyone knows I'm not exactly a friend of the new skill and magic system, and that I've made numerous attempts and suggestions and whatnot in the last two years to get something different - without even a modicum of success, mind you.
Anyway, before I tell about my latest - keep in mind, that the game will be released in 4 weeks - there won't be any MASSIVE changes anymore.
So let me tell you how I came to that.
The other day I was playing the beta, when I realized that racial skills and abilities are actually HERO-based, not faction-based, which means that you can play each and every faction with each and every hero - a revelation considering the Hall of Heroes.
I had also realized that heroes get a lot of XP, leveling fast, which means it pays to invest a couple of levels into a second hero - if for nothing else than for governor abilities.
That led me to a different way to go into a game: I picked Sylvans, random hero and took a look at what I got.
I got Sylrael as a hero (Earth GM, Prime and Water Master) - not bad at all with his Stone Skin special -, but when I saw Eruina in the Hall, I went, what the hell, and hired her: IN YOUR FACE, WEEDEATERS!
(She's good with her +10 Leadership special). She also has GM Offense and GM DARK plus Master Prime and Earth plus Expert Fire.
So I went some with both (but mainly Eruina, which was fun in its own right, Malassa-ing Sprites and Dryads), until I build MG Level 1, picking DARK (could have picked Prime as well) just for the heck of it
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and keeled over: 1 Dark, 1 Earth, 2 LIGHT, 1 AIR. ARE YOU KIDDING ME! (Interestingly enough Eruina didn't even want to LEARN the frigging Light spells.)
And then it hit me - and so I made a suggestion:
Allow players to not only chose a favored magic school (beside the standard favored), but also to FORBID one!
I think, it's a very simple, but also a very effective idea. Obviously, with a Dark Elf complementary hero you would forbid Light in the above case (but say you'd want to go with a Haven hero, you would forbid Dark - not Air).
What does it gain?
Less useless spells in the guild! Combined with the random Hall selection and the skill wheel combinations that become possible, it actually becomes a different game.
Your opinion?
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted September 01, 2015 08:55 PM |
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Sounds preety legit, might work.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 01, 2015 09:06 PM |
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probably too late for release. might show up in a patch or something though 
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 09:20 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:30, 01 Sep 2015.
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My opinion? A sensible suggestion. The very reason why it will never happen.
Seriously now, you really think they went through all that Arcane Knowledge thing just so they can downplay its role now? You really think we're gonna get to forbid ourselves an extra magic school for reasons other than lore flavor, like gameplay? And you do realize we're gonna expel ~30% of our magic from our guilds? I mean, sure, it's for the sake of making other spells that you'd want have a higher rate of availability, but come on. I'm not satisfied in the least with patching this flawed system with compromise measures. It just feels artificial, only for the sake of dealing with issues which shouldn't have been there in the first place.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 01, 2015 10:31 PM |
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Like the idea, shouldn't be too much trouble to implement.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 01, 2015 10:49 PM |
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Make sure you could do it with ALL factions. stupid non-dark haven 
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 11:10 PM |
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Well, sure, that's the point. Pick one favored and one shunned. No matter what.
@ Stevie
Well, the game is kind of a balance mess right now. But there ARE a couple of good things (strangely enough no "best ofs"), and once you realize the fact that you are not limited to picking faction heroes, the game gets an interesting new twist.
Sure, there shouldn't be that kind of tap dancing with Magic and skills - but on the other hand these arbitrarily limited skill wheels allow pretty strong abilities (as opposed to the lame H6 stuff).
Just imagine you could get a GM in both Offense and Defense!
Which means I'm kind aof willing to actually make this as best as possible within the given limits.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted September 01, 2015 11:20 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Well, sure, that's the point. Pick one favored and one shunned. No matter what.
@ Stevie
Well, the game is kind of a balance mess right now. But there ARE a couple of good things (strangely enough no "best ofs"), and once you realize the fact that you are not limited to picking faction heroes, the game gets an interesting new twist.
Sure, there shouldn't be that kind of tap dancing with Magic and skills - but on the other hand these arbitrarily limited skill wheels allow pretty strong abilities (as opposed to the lame H6 stuff).
Just imagine you could get a GM in both Offense and Defense!
Which means I'm kind aof willing to actually make this as best as possible within the given limits.
That's the attitude. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 01, 2015 11:32 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:34, 01 Sep 2015.
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Well fine. You got my support. Just as long as things turn out for the better. Maybe it would be more appropriate if, instead of banning another magic school, you would just pick 4-5 during the magic selection screen. Same deal in the end but maybe it counts if it's less hassle to implement. Also more a la Heroes 4, if that's a plus in anyone's book...
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 08:07 AM |
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I wouldn't see any sense in that - with the current guild structure, that is. A HoMM4-like system would mean, you'd build a separate guild for each school you want - fine, of course, but only as long as there are enough spells in each school, which was the case in HoMM4, but isn't in 7.
Then there would be the problem that only T1 gives 5 spells, the others less - so in the end it would still amount to banning 2.
Lastly, you'd never get more than 1 spell of a school an any level.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 09:39 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 09:39, 02 Sep 2015.
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I understand that, but choosing which schools are available doesn't mean that you'd automatically get spells from that school, it just means that there's a chance for that to happen. It's doing things the other way around from what you said and nothing more or less, because emphasizing selection feels more appropriate than bringing up banning. But in the end it achieves the same thing. Also, specialization would still be in place, that's a given.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 09:49 AM |
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Not in this combination. Some towns have a forbidden Magic, like Dungeon, and Dungeon heroes cannot even learn Light spells, even if they stumble over them in another town guild. That's one thing.
Then most towns have a favored guaranteed school.
And you can PICK another one of those.
Now, picking a school that WON'T appear, isn't forbidding it like above. It just drops eight spells out of the pool, thereby simply increasing the chances for all the others, without changing anything else.
It's a nice symmetry - pick a good one, pick a bad one, giving you a tad more control.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 09:54 AM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 10:31 AM |
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Looking at my track record in that regard chances are slim to abysmal. 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 02, 2015 11:44 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 11:45, 02 Sep 2015.
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I'd prefer a slightly different system: for each faction, consider how well any of the 7 Magic skills match up with it. That way, you assign a maximum tier of each Magic skill that will appear in the Mage Guild. You get the choice in which to specialize from among the Schools that can go up to Tier 4 (which means each faction should have at least 2 Favorites) - and you will get a Tier 4 spell in the selected School. At Tier 1, 2 and 3 you get at least 1 spell guaranteed from the specialisation. In case the number of spells in a given Tier is higher than the Schools allowed in that Tier, specialisation should have a higher chance to fill up the gaps.
Just to give an example:
Stronghold:
- Prime: 1
- Light: 2
- Dark: 2
- Earth: 4
- Fire: 3
- Air: 4
- Water: 3
This means that at Tier 1, you can get spells from all 7 schools, but at Tier 3, you can only get spells from the four traditional Elements. Specialisation is possible between Earth or Air (because those go up to Tier 4). The specialisation choice then determines whether Tier 4 will have an Earth spell or an Air spell.
Another example:
Dungeon:
- Prime: 2
- Light: 0
- Dark: 4
- Earth: 4
- Fire: 1
- Air: 2
- Water: 2
Light will never appear in Mage Guilds for dungeon and Tier 3 & 4 only have spells in the Dark or Earth schools. Tier 4 depends on the specialisation to be either Dark or Earth.
Of course, these are just examples, open for balancing. It's a mix of H4 and H7.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 12:05 PM |
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That would be a CHANGE of system, not an easy addition (so it's out of the question from the getgo).
Also I don't like it because you basically damn all T1/T2 only schools to meaninglessness from the start.
You'd ALWAYS go with Earth for Dungeon, because you couldn't get T3s from anywhere else (except Dark).
Bad idea.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 02, 2015 12:52 PM |
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One of the things I disliked in H5 was that you could not count on your town to give you high tier spells other than your two favoured. I want random spells but also a way to influence said randomness.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 01:10 PM |
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In H5 with one tailor-made hero type for each town - not ideal, but possible.
In H7? Not good! The problem is, even with a 2nd T4 there'd still be no variation in most towns.
Which is why I still think 6/5/4/3 spells would be better. I mean, for a town like Haven, you'd block Earth as well as Dark, have Light for granted and would pick, say, Prime. That would leave, Air, Fire, and Water. 8 certain spells, then 4 out of 13 on T1, 3 out of 8 on T2, 2 out of 8 in T3 and 1 out of 3 in T4 in addition.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 02, 2015 04:13 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Which is why I still think 6/5/4/3 spells would be better.
Given the randomness of the guild system that much should have been a given. There just aren't enough high tier spells.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 02, 2015 05:00 PM |
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And not only in the guild.
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