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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 14, 2015 10:46 AM |
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They are losing nothing, I don't know where people get the idea ISIS is losing the war or is weakened. All recent military reports show that ISIS became stronger every day, had unlimited funds and sophisticated arms. Unless serious ground forces are deployed, there is nothing anybody can do against ISIS. And ground forces means more dead soldiers, from both sides.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 14, 2015 11:58 AM |
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Salamandre said:
...Unless serious ground forces are deployed, there is nothing anybody can do against ISIS. And ground forces means more dead soldiers, from both sides.
That's it. And what politician is going to do that? I doubt Putin, nor anyone else, could pull that off without losing serious ground politically. The U.S. didn't get serious until it was perceived something (like 2000+ dead and large burning buildings) had to be done and even then what unfolded was a multi-purposed botched mess that left the region up for grabs...as is now unfolding.
When someone will kill strangers to make a desperate point, things are in the realm of insanity...no matter the motive or who, when and where.
But none of this is new. A General in WWII was quoted as saying, when speaking about carpet-bombing; "If we get Granny Shifflegruber, that's too bad."
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 14, 2015 12:06 PM |
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markkur said:
That's it. And what politician is going to do that?
France president could do it, today. And he will only gain voters for doing so, seeing how people are enraged right now. But he won't do it, its been long time that our presidents have only decorative balls. Instead he declared 3 days of national mourning, like this is going to solve anything.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 14, 2015 12:19 PM |
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To end ISIS you need a political resolution, it's not like a conventional army you can wipe out militarily, there will always be new recruits and new volunteers. We had the same problem with PKK, after the coup in the 1980's, there was much oppression in the Kurdish region (which was extremely poor and primitive in infrastructure btw), people were forced to sing the National Anthem in the streets, there was torture in prisons, so the reaction grew stronger and stronger. The armed forces fighting PKK had every advantage technically, they were many many more in numbers, equipped with better guns, they had air force... But every time they wiped out a group of guerrillas, some more joined in, for more than thirty years. Things were finally settling down when some political resolution took place but then, Iraq happened and now, it's a mess again.
Stoping ISIS is not about preventing millions of refugees (who are mostly escaping from them, btw) or dropping down a few bombs from the sky in Syria or even a land invasion. As long as there is this instability in the region, it will all be like cutting the head of Hydra, you will kill 1000, 2000 will rush in to join "the cause" willingly. It's no coincidence they are stronger in Africa, because Africa is even in a worse situation than the Middle-East. The world gets smaller everyday and we're in a stage like the 19th century capitalism but this time globally. In 19th century, the economical (and eventually cultural) gap between the classes was so enormous and harsh, it resulted in wild reaction, uprisings and sometimes even communist revolutions. As long as blind profit rules over those regions, some kind of backfire is inevitable, it's almost like a sociological rule.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted November 14, 2015 12:36 PM |
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 14, 2015 01:03 PM |
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The attacks in Paris came shortly after France sent their flagship (the De Gaulle) to boost their airstrike potential in Syria. There might be a connection, depending on how fast terrorists within France could organize something like this. ISIS wants to see France withdraw. Now it's just a question of whether or not they will.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted November 14, 2015 01:17 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 13:20, 14 Nov 2015.
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Salamandre said:
They are losing nothing, I don't know where people get the idea ISIS is losing the war or is weakened. All recent military reports show that ISIS became stronger every day, had unlimited funds and sophisticated arms. Unless serious ground forces are deployed, there is nothing anybody can do against ISIS. And ground forces means more dead soldiers, from both sides.
Yeah, in a war people die. ISIS won't be defeated by words or lowered flags or national days of mourning or pretty lights on buildings but by ground warfare. If this is an "act of war" and France does not put troops on the ground he is not defending France. If this is "an attack on all of humanity" and he does not put troops on the ground he is merely posturing and is refusing to do his job as commander-in-chief. Politicians love words but some are too cowardly to defend their nation.
ISIS will continue to grow until real actions are taken to defeat them. "Allah is blessing us. Even the Great Satan can't defeat us" is the argument that will continue to draw new recruits to them until we REALLY stand against them. An air war is no war at all. Air power can be effective support but the war can only be won on the ground.
Just reported: a Syrian passport was discovered on the body of one of the terrorists.
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Revelation
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Hadji020
Adventuring Hero
The Underestimated
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posted November 14, 2015 01:21 PM |
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Edited by Hadji020 at 13:22, 14 Nov 2015.
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Off topic much? but hey its about muslims, anything goes right.
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.::True Rebels Walk Alone::.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 14, 2015 01:28 PM |
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Hadji020
Adventuring Hero
The Underestimated
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posted November 14, 2015 01:35 PM |
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Edited by Hadji020 at 13:37, 14 Nov 2015.
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Just absorbing the hypocrisy on the net.
Charlie Hebdo + give or take 150 deaths vs the millions in Iraq since Desert Storm. And thats just Iraq. (MILLIONS!)
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.::True Rebels Walk Alone::.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted November 14, 2015 01:38 PM |
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Hadji, I just replied to this discussion, doesn't mean I think this is related to refugees. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 14, 2015 01:40 PM |
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You are not inventing the wheel. This issue has been already discussed here. But the fact is also that not everyone agrees or supported european interference in Iraq, Syria or backing Israel. And if it is still discussed into refugees thread, is precisely because, at the root of all, it is about two incompatible cultures. Less they interfere, better things will go.
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Hadji020
Adventuring Hero
The Underestimated
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posted November 14, 2015 01:40 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Hadji, I just replied to this discussion, doesn't mean I think this is related to refugees.
I wasnt singling out anyone in particular mate. Dont take it personal.
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.::True Rebels Walk Alone::.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted November 14, 2015 01:46 PM |
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Anyways, anti-terrorism should mean defense, and not more senseless offense.
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blizzardboy
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Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 14, 2015 02:13 PM |
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artu said:
To end ISIS you need a political resolution, it's not like a conventional army you can wipe out militarily, there will always be new recruits and new volunteers. We had the same problem with PKK, after the coup in the 1980's, there was much oppression in the Kurdish region (which was extremely poor and primitive in infrastructure btw), people were forced to sing the National Anthem in the streets, there was torture in prisons, so the reaction grew stronger and stronger. The armed forces fighting PKK had every advantage technically, they were many many more in numbers, equipped with better guns, they had air force... But every time they wiped out a group of guerrillas, some more joined in, for more than thirty years. Things were finally settling down when some political resolution took place but then, Iraq happened and now, it's a mess again.
Stoping ISIS is not about preventing millions of refugees (who are mostly escaping from them, btw) or dropping down a few bombs from the sky in Syria or even a land invasion. As long as there is this instability in the region, it will all be like cutting the head of Hydra, you will kill 1000, 2000 will rush in to join "the cause" willingly. It's no coincidence they are stronger in Africa, because Africa is even in a worse situation than the Middle-East. The world gets smaller everyday and we're in a stage like the 19th century capitalism but this time globally. In 19th century, the economical (and eventually cultural) gap between the classes was so enormous and harsh, it resulted in wild reaction, uprisings and sometimes even communist revolutions. As long as blind profit rules over those regions, some kind of backfire is inevitable, it's almost like a sociological rule.
The overarching message of this post is true, that a political resolution is necessary if you don't want cyclical violence, but a military campaign does matter. Sure, you have a war without borders, but in every war there is always the necessity of organization. ISIS isn't a bunch of people chatting with each other on social media. It's a structured organization of people. If you can dissolve the tangible structure, you can (largely) dissolve the organized violence. That isn't going to stop miniature home-bred terrorist cells or individuals that act by themselves. If a lonely & wrathful young man living in a crumby flat around Paris decides to charge people in a market with a knife or some cheap self-made explosives there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. The end of IS - as a structured & financed group of people - will protect you from people being supplied with contraband weaponry & explosives and taking orders from higher-ups.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted November 14, 2015 02:25 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Anyways, anti-terrorism should mean defense, and not more senseless offense.
Hahaha, yeah, do remember those wily politicians count deterrence as "defense", also a pre-emptive strike is also ironically "defensive".
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 14, 2015 02:27 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:28, 14 Nov 2015.
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@blizz
Fair point, in a way. Although, I'm informed that it's quite easy to get your hands on AK-47's or explosives in Europe these days, if you have the right underground connections. After the Yugoslavian conflict ended, all that weapon and armory ended up in the hands of Balkan mafias and now, an AK-47 is sold for like 300 dollars in the black market.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
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posted November 14, 2015 02:31 PM |
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have a source that says you can get a functional AK-47 for 300 dollars on the black market? That seems pretty extraordinary.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 14, 2015 02:36 PM |
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The source is some security specialist, ex-intelligence officer being interviewed on national TV yesterday about how they have such weapons in the middle of Paris. So, I can not give you a link.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
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posted November 14, 2015 02:38 PM |
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They must have thousands of AK-47s stockpiled in an abandoned Doritos factory somewhere if they're selling for 300 dollars.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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