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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 18, 2015 01:54 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
@fuCrhis
I think it's too simplistic to say everyone has his faith in his own hands independent of where or how he's born..
I never said that, however many place their life in the hands of god - or Allah to be more precise - which is just as bad.
Anyways it's not our lives that we strive to change but our childrens and grandchildrens. And their fate are indeed in their hands. It's just a question of waning to be Syirian or German with Syrian heritage.
OhforfSake said:
Neraus said:
Or collaborate to improve their country's situation so as to get them out of the third world.
But that's pretty easy to say.. consider that:
1) This country has no free market forces.
2) The country is not democratically led.
3) The government does not ensure your safety.
4) The land itself is mostly barren.
5) Little educational possibilities.
1)Free market always finds a way even if you don't want it to. No need to worry about that.
2)So are most of the gulf states and they are all monarchys I belive.
3)Fair point.
4)Simply false.
5)Also false. Syria is/was a relatively well developed country with well educated people.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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OhforfSake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted September 18, 2015 02:03 PM |
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Free market finds it way over time, not right away, the time can be hundreds of years as it can be months, it depends of the system. 
I'm not speaking only about education in the traditional sense, to quote yourself:
fuChris said:
however many place their life in the hands of god - or Allah to be more precise - which is just as bad.
While it's a gross oversimplification, it's more about the mentality of the people, which is derived from the upbringing form their parents and the society of the country they live in.
To take charge of your own life is not something nontraditional in their culture, which stories such as thousand legends illustrates.
Finally if you don't think northern African lands, (Sahara desert) is mostly barren, then take a look at google maps. Establishments are along rivers and the cities are nothing extraordinary.
And again I'd like to point out the tiny wages compared to European standards.., not to mention what exactly are you supposed to do when you find yourself bombed by the government and attacked by radicalized groups fighting said government? Start your tractor and gather for the winter?
Many of us are very fortunate to have been born into a state of life where we can do our best and get rewarded for it in a manner that ensures a good life, but it doesn't mean if the entire system as we know it gets removed, that we could simply continue our best and get the same result or anything similar.
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Living time backwards
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Neraus
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Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 18, 2015 02:10 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
And again I'd like to point out the tiny wages compared to European standards.., not to mention what exactly are you supposed to do when you find yourself bombed by the government and attacked by radicalized groups fighting said government? Start your tractor and gather for the winter?
Are you taking into account the price of basic goods? It's usually proportional to the average wage I think, people tell me that in America they earn a lot and in Australia they earn in an hour what you would earn here in one month.
But houses cost more there, and I think things cost more than here, back with the Lira we used to pay 100 Lire for a coffee, whereas now we spend 50 cents, which is 1000 Lire, back then it seemed we earned more, and yet things costed proportionally to that.
Also, you're talking about the political refugees, if you're fleeing from a war you should be allowed passage, I was talking about economical migrants, those who run away from their country because it's poor.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 18, 2015 02:16 PM |
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Neraus said:
I was talking about economical migrants, those who run away from their country because it's poor.
i thought they were fleeing because of isis. am i missing something?
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 18, 2015 02:21 PM |
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OhforfSake said:
Finally if you don't think northern African lands, (Sahara desert) is mostly barren, then take a look at google maps. Establishments are along rivers and the cities are nothing extraordinary.
I was talking about Syria but following that logic the Himalayans are also pretty inhospitable and I don't see millions of people living there. It's the same reason people don't live in Atalantis(anymore ). People can move, nobody is forcing them to stay in inhospitable terrain.
Neraus said:
OhforfSake said:
And again I'd like to point out the tiny wages compared to European standards.., not to mention what exactly are you supposed to do when you find yourself bombed by the government and attacked by radicalized groups fighting said government? Start your tractor and gather for the winter?
Are you taking into account the price of basic goods? It's usually proportional to the average wage I think, people tell me that in America they earn a lot and in Australia they earn in an hour what you would earn here in one month.
This however is a good point. A point not complete without taking into consideration the Free Market.
Let me remind you all that when the Arab spring all started in 2011 it was a very dry year low on crops and the bio-fuel craze was still in full swing. Food was in short supply and prices were heavily inflated. I suspect all of this would not have happened if we hadn't produced biofuel. Corn had become the new blood-diamonds.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 18, 2015 02:37 PM |
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fred79 said:
Neraus said:
I was talking about economical migrants, those who run away from their country because it's poor.
i thought they were fleeing because of isis. am i missing something?
Partially. There are two problems with Syria. First one being ISIS and the second one is al-Asad andhis forces. Since weak opposition forces have to fight with al-Asad (who is additonally supported by Iran and Russia) and ISIS, many people decide that there is no hope for them and they flee.
Additional aspect of that refugee crisis is that many people accuse refugees of not being in any true need of help, as they have smartphones and tablets. Truth is that in face of such circumstances the ones that flee are usually members of the middle class. The poor ones are very often ill-educated, so they have no hope and no knowledge that one can flee from Syria, so they stay and wait until the war ends.
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OhforfSake
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posted September 18, 2015 02:41 PM |
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Yeah low wages means cheap food, or you couldn't buy at all.
But it's not much help when you're forced away from where you live.
I was mainly referring to the refugee situation, trying to point out how it's not the same as immigration, but in regards to immigration I think reasons to want to live Europe is general higher health (better security) and more freedom.
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Neraus
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posted September 18, 2015 02:57 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 14:58, 18 Sep 2015.
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fred79 said:
Neraus said:
I was talking about economical migrants, those who run away from their country because it's poor.
i thought they were fleeing because of isis. am i missing something?
There are also people coming from other more stable countries, especially in the case of African migrants, who come here to get money...
Do you all think that the crisis is confined to Syrian migrants? You just started talking about this but the migrant crisis began before ISIS came along, only that it was confined to Africans coming to Italy, but at the time Europe didn't bother to help the poor Africans, now however, since Assad became the bogeyman they always wanted and ISIS is running amok everyone is getting their panties in a bunch because of Syrians, but no one talks about the Iranian, Iraqi, Afghani, and God knows what else comes from there, the point being, if they're fleeing from ISIS, ok, it's an humanitarian problem and you are a political refugee, it would be bad to deny you entrance, if you're mixing yourself with those who need asylum and are doing it for the money you shouldn't disguise yourself as a refugee, and then we return to my point, you should instead rack up some money and get a plane or something instead of doing this walk.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 18, 2015 02:57 PM |
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Kayna said:
The problem isn't accepting or refusing them. The problem is their sheer number. Two millions? That's twice the town of Montreal. Holy crap! If such a -throng-, to put it in HoMM terms, was knocking at my country's door, I'd freak out.
Hence why the entire Union needs to co-operate so these people can be spread out effectively.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 18, 2015 02:59 PM |
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fuChris said:
1)Free market always finds a way even if you don't want it to. No need to worry about that.
A lot of reasonable things you said in your previous post just flew away with this. There is no free market where there is no safety and stability and the so-called free market is one of the very reasons about the situation and poverty in the Middle-East. These neverending wars and potential conflict there is partly triggered by big oil companies and weapon industry pupeteering and financing politics. War is the way your market always finds its way even if you dont want it to.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
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posted September 18, 2015 03:00 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 15:01, 18 Sep 2015.
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The Union has been blind to this day, I'm sceptical that they would be able to find a solution, they could have solved this back when we were invaded by Africans, in 4 years they ignored the problem, and I'm sure they will do the wrong thing in solving this crisis.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fuChris
Promising
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Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 18, 2015 03:16 PM |
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artu said:
fuChris said:
1)Free market always finds a way even if you don't want it to. No need to worry about that.
A lot of reasonable things you said in your previous post just flew away with this.
I thought I have been clear enough. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. Currently ISIS is partly financing itself from selling oil to black market buyers in Turkey. All the while Afganistan is still the worlds main heroin exporters. Not to mention human trafficing, currently imigrants to europe but otherwise slaves for the gulf states. Free market ALWAYS finds a way. No point arguing this.
Also...
artu said:
War is the way your market always finds its way even if you dont want it to.
...Really?
You do realize it's the same for you as well unless you are typing these messages from North Korea.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted September 18, 2015 03:29 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Kayna said:
The problem isn't accepting or refusing them. The problem is their sheer number. Two millions? That's twice the town of Montreal. Holy crap! If such a -throng-, to put it in HoMM terms, was knocking at my country's door, I'd freak out.
Hence why the entire Union needs to co-operate so these people can be spread out effectively.
Which it won't for opinions will differ depending on the country. You also seem to forget the fact that you need a lot of money to help these people. Money that we do not have.
We are up to our necks in debts and adding more to these will only doom the next generation.
As for your little "suuuuuuuuure" part. Yeah, I do not care. The father was willing to risk it all for his own reasons and while I think it is sad that it all ended up as jt did, the fact remains you got children dying everyday from various causes and yet utterly few truly "cares" as in "attempts to help" or even give it a thought, simply because there are no headlines and pictures of it.
What I am sorry for, is the next generation that will be forced to deal with the horrors and economical debts we leave behind for them now.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 18, 2015 03:52 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:56, 18 Sep 2015.
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fuChris said:
artu said:
fuChris said:
1)Free market always finds a way even if you don't want it to. No need to worry about that.
A lot of reasonable things you said in your previous post just flew away with this.
I thought I have been clear enough. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. Currently ISIS is partly financing itself from selling oil to black market buyers in Turkey. All the while Afganistan is still the worlds main heroin exporters. Not to mention human trafficing, currently imigrants to europe but otherwise slaves for the gulf states. Free market ALWAYS finds a way. No point arguing this.
Also...
artu said:
War is the way your market always finds its way even if you dont want it to.
...Really?
You do realize it's the same for you as well unless you are typing these messages from North Korea.
When I say "your" market, my emphasize is on how you presented it as a magic wand solution to everything in your response to Forfy. So dont take it out of context, heroin trafficking or ISIS selling oil on the black market has nothing to do with him objecting to you on the basis of a citizen's way to prosper in his own country.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted September 18, 2015 03:53 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 15:55, 18 Sep 2015.
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Ebonheart said:
...You also seem to forget the fact that you need a lot of money to help these people. Money that we do not have.
We are up to our necks in debts and adding more to these will only doom the next generation.
So true, for a century the U.S, has helped the poor all over the world but today no one is helping the poor in the U.S. (or gives a flying-flip) and there are lots of folks that are not making it, while tax-dollars go about anywhere else, for use in the states or "other crisis". Apparently American citizens are not allowed to have crisis...but instead need to get a third job to keep helping someone else.
Cost of living is what matters. I'm going nowhere if I work eight hours and make a grand an hour, if my eating that day costs 8,000 dollars; which is just about what a burger and fries cost today.
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"Do your own research"
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Neraus
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Pain relief cream seller
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posted September 18, 2015 04:03 PM |
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Exactly, if I told you my parents spent millions on their honeymoon you'd think I'm one of the richest men in Italy, sadly that was the time of the Lira, which meant that the average wage was incredibly numerically high (compared to today) but at same time the other goods costed a lot more than today.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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fuChris
Promising
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Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 18, 2015 04:08 PM |
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@Artu
I haven't taken anything out of context. You put it there by assuming that I mentioned it as a magic wand solution which I clearly haven't since we were not talking about soulutions but about hinderances and lacking institutions. Anyways no point being salty.
Talking about financing ,what I still don't understand is why haven't the oil refineries been carpet bombed yet. It's not nearly as hard to take down as the heroin plantations. Just as mindboggling as why the Italian navy hasn't sunk the rickety boats that the smugglers use to ferry people. It seems logical to me that without ships the mediterranian route would be much more manageable.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Neraus
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posted September 18, 2015 04:14 PM |
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We could sink the ships, our politicians have agreed for what could be defined an extraordinary feat, we all want to sink the ships before they are loaded, but the EU wouldn't have let us, and also ONU wouldn't as we need permission from the government of Libya, which, for the record, is split in two factions.
We can't have it our way unfortunately...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 18, 2015 04:27 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:43, 18 Sep 2015.
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fuChris said:
@Artu
I haven't taken anything out of context. You put it there by assuming that I mentioned it as a magic wand solution which I clearly haven't since we were not talking about soulutions but about hinderances and lacking institutions. Anyways no point being salty.
Dude, Neraus talks about improving one's own country instead of migrating as an alternative, Forfy replies by listing hindrances to that including lack of free market forces, you object by saying free market always finds a way with a "no worries". You obviously implied it was a self-resolving thing and part of a solution. Or it came off extremely sounding like that which is not about me being salty. Anyway, no need to get stuck if it's a misunderstanding.
Oh, and by the way, heroin trafficking etc and mafioso ways can not be quite defined as free market. It's not exactly a free zone when you murder the competition.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted September 18, 2015 04:30 PM |
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Click on the green
Don't look like refugees worthy of any pity, more like an angry horde of pests.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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