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fred79
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posted February 16, 2018 06:48 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 18:50, 16 Feb 2018.
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Warmonger said:
People who don't have firearms cannot shoot each other. /thread
how do you propose we effectively remove guns from criminals? and if push comes to shove, how do you propose we protect ourselves from our own government, should snow really hit the fan? you already see how every country in europe that has an unarmed populace, doesn't really have a say in what goes on in their own countries. the only reason the people living in the u.s. doesn't, is because they're too wrapped up in illusion and laziness to realize their own true power. which they absolutely have, because they are armed.
i say, if push comes to shove, because should the people living in the u.s. ever actually get off their ass, they would actually be able to DO something about what's going on at our helm. unlike what's happening in europe atm. people over there are being steamrolled. whereas here, at least with OUR illegal immigrants, they at least attempt to keep the peace. from what i've seen, anyway.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 16, 2018 07:04 PM |
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Fred, it's 2018, you can not oppose military technology with individual guns and militia. If "push comes to shove" in that sense, they will wipe you out.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JoonasTo
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 16, 2018 07:20 PM |
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artu said:
Fred, it's 2018, you can not oppose military technology with individual guns and militia. If "push comes to shove" in that sense, they will wipe you out.
No they won't. Military personnel are citizens too. Sure, american military personnel perhaps less of a normal citizen than most other militaries around the world but I doubt they're stupid enough to go around shooting their countrymen.
Otherwise a fair point to make. It doesn't matter how many rifles you got when the other side has artillery, armoured vehicles, attack helicopters, chemical weapons, biological weapons, nuclear weapons, etc.
The only way you're going to win with the rifles is if they won't shoot you. For that purpose it's actually better to go unarmed, than armed. That way, the threshold for shooting you is higher.
PS. In most European countries the citizens ARE the army, literally. Conscription based armies are common over here. Even in Russia the army is normal citizens.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 16, 2018 07:28 PM |
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Push comes to shove meaning you have a combat situation between the revolters and the military, of course, it will take much more for them to shoot their own citizens compared to some Middle Eastern country etc but he is talking about a situation where arms make a difference in an uprising. In such a situation, a professional army has the capacity to wipe militia out, if necessary.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
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posted February 16, 2018 07:34 PM |
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artu said:
Fred, it's 2018, you can not oppose military technology with individual guns and militia. If "push comes to shove" in that sense, they will wipe you out.
you assume we actually need to attack anything to regain control, which is wrong. besides, they won't "wipe us out". they can't start a civil war, because our whole country would lose. any actual battle on american turf, by americans, would be catastrophic. there are too many other countries that would jump at the chance to attack while we were weakened internally. and they know that. just a united show of force, or really even just americans no longer doing their jobs, would be enough.
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Tsar-ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted February 16, 2018 07:36 PM |
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@Warmonger Sensible and responsible adults do not need someone else to tell them what they should or shouldn't own (especially by quacks and immoral government). It's just the man-children (or children in general) that we gotta worry about).
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 16, 2018 07:38 PM |
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fred79 said:
Just a united show of force, or really even just americans no longer doing their jobs, would be enough.
And why would you need guns for that?
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
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posted February 16, 2018 07:43 PM |
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when was the last time your government ever listened to unarmed protesting? now, when was the last time the u.s. government ever listened to unarmed protesting? most people from non-armed countries questioning why americans are armed, really, i don't get it. have none of you not learned anything throughout history about a government ruling over an unarmed populace?
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Tsar-ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted February 16, 2018 07:46 PM |
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artu said:
Push comes to shove meaning you have a combat situation between the revolters and the military, of course, it will take much more for them to shoot their own citizens compared to some Middle Eastern country etc but he is talking about a situation where arms make a difference in an uprising. In such a situation, a professional army has the capacity to wipe militia out, if necessary.
In direct military confrontation perhaps, but just like the UK in all its tech still couldn't wipe the IRA out, nor could America 'win' against cave dwellers. According to research time is the most effective determination of a war's outcome (civil included, it's even more important than relative manpower and loss ratios), thus the longer time a group can survive the increased likelyhood of a settled agreement. 4 years is when it shifts from unlikely into gradually more likely (a study conducted in 2012, can link the journal if anyone cares for it). It does have flaws, but this theoretical explanation was accurate for 84% Iirc of case studies of conflicts after ww2)
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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fred79
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posted February 16, 2018 11:44 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 23:51, 16 Feb 2018.
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in case any of ya'll missed my point with the unarmed protesting, my point is that, as a civilian under the thumb of whoever's controlling the masses, you will only be taken seriously by those in power, when you have a gun in your hand. you can march for peace as long as you want, and you'll never make any difference unless you have their attention. and the best way to get their attention and be taken seriously, is if you're armed when you're making your stand. even if you manage to make unarmed headway in your country, chances are, they just replace whoever steps down, with someone else just like them.
now, you may be able to get your point across by numbers alone in another part of the world(though i highly doubt it), but in the u.s., without a gun in your hand, you're just viewed as mooing cattle to your leaders.
ESPECIALLY in the u.s.
things are different in the u.s. i don't know if you've all noticed this or not, but the villains at the top here are pro's. they're not your nickel and dime 3rd-world tyrants. they've invested decades in learning how to control the american masses(and indeed, attempting to control other nations throughout the world; which you can read about in previously classified government documents. you can also read about some nasty things that our government and it's agencies were a part of towards their own citizens, direct from their own previously classified documents*).
in other countries, they've already disarmed you; and they govern every aspect of your life, and even if you wanted to change that, you couldn't. you will never be able to, now. because you don't have the guns to let them know you are absolutely serious about real change. that power that you as civilians DON'T have, WE have. and our leaders know that if they tried to take OUR power, that it wouldn't happen without the complete destruction of the u.s.; either from the outside in, or from the inside, out.
and that is why WE still have our guns, and always WILL, as long as our nation stands. regardless of how the guns running in circulation in the u.s.(both legal, and illegal), are used to kill our own.
and i'll reiterate again, that most guns used in killings, are used in gang-related killings. and nearly always, those guns were ILLEGAL(bought, or owned). so restricting(or even banning) gun purchases/ownership for LEGAL residents is MOOT, no matter what.
*i could go on and on about government control and the facilities it has at it's disposal, but that's for another thread.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2018 02:33 AM |
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You're just rationalizing gun culture. It is as simple as this:
Quote:
The only way you're going to win with the rifles is if they won't shoot you. For that purpose it's actually better to go unarmed, than armed. That way, the threshold for shooting you is higher.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
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posted February 17, 2018 03:28 AM |
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wrong. i've clearly explained the reality of this repeatedly, regarding everything involved and why it happens, and gun culture and why it's needed, and you just flat-out refuse to acknowledge that i'm right. and, you didn't answer my questions, because answering them honestly would directly contradict your stance; and obviously so.
look, i'm getting nowhere with you and the others disagreeing with me on the obvious. there's no point continuing this with you, or them. i'll just leave you and them with an image designed to explain things to a toddler, because this is honestly how simple the pro/anti-gun issue is:
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2018 03:43 AM |
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You jumped from revolt against government to criminality with that pictrue which is certainly wrong. When guns are not so widespread criminals also have less of them. Just look at... the rest of the world... or even your own country 50 years ago.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
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posted February 17, 2018 04:11 AM |
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just look at... the rest of the world... and tell me there isn't more people than 50 years ago... or that cultures everywhere haven't changed since then...
really, man. come on.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2018 04:33 AM |
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Yes, cultures did change and they can manage quite well without turning gun ownership into some kind of fetish. You must understand that your culture is the exception when it comes to guns, you are the anomaly. And when talking about how necessary it is, you sound like Muslims trying to justify covering up women because if not, men would be aroused all the time. When you ask them how come men keep living their lives as usual in all the rest of the world with women weaing skirts and all, they tell you stupid things like "well, they supress their desire for women, that's why there are so many gays in the West." Americans are the same when trying to justify this crazed level of gun culture, they come up with weird rationalizations and tell you how it makes common sense and how everything would fall apart without the guns... It won't, really. There'll be a transition period, of course, but then, you'd do just fine.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
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posted February 17, 2018 04:46 AM |
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artu said:
they tell you stupid things... Americans are the same when trying to justify this crazed level of gun culture
so, every point i've brought up to you, that explain reality, why this attack happened, and why gun culture SHOULD exist, is stupid? ok, whatever. thanks for clarifying that i'm wasting my time with you on this.
you should try 4chan, they'd love you to debate them(it's all over 4chan right now; i'm actually reading one of the anti-american troll threads atm). you'd get your ass reamed every which way, logically and/or humorously.
really, give them a try. you'd fit in well there(not kidding), and they'd drive every single point home that i've reiterated a bazillion times, and they'd add more that i'm currently forgetting, as a group better than i ever could as just one guy standing up to the mentality of you anti-gun people here at hc pretty much by myself.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2018 04:54 AM |
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Thanks fred but 4chan and the likes are not my cup of tea.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 17, 2018 05:03 AM |
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/off-topic:
dude, you'd fit in REALLY well there. trust me on this; i've been there since the site began. you would enjoy yourself, trust me. and you might actually learn some things that i've been trying to teach you. or you could even reinforce your own specific beliefs. lol.
don't think for a second, that they don't have intelligent people at 4chan that you can't bounce knowledge(or whatever it is you have, lol) or ideas off of. that site houses some of the most intelligent people i've seen online. but you'll have to be there a while before you can seperate the trolling from the actual posts. until then, just read and laugh your nuts off. they're hilarious. 
i promise you won't lose your soul there. i still have mine.  
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 17, 2018 05:17 AM |
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I'm sure everybody there isnt a moron but there is simply too much distortion. And I prefer small communities online. Back to topic, I realize your arguments make perfect sense to you (that's why you present them) but that's how rationalization works anyway. You have emotional attachment to gun culture (to repeat the analogy, like Muslims have for Islam), and your mind simply seeks ways to justify anomalies even when you are not aware of the process. The results of such culture and the results of non-existence of such culture, the statistics, murder rates etc, they are all there for each country. They speak for themselves.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted February 17, 2018 10:54 AM |
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Well, you said it yourself, look 50 years back, there were no such close shootings, while gun rights still there. It's maybe time to look towards nuclear family destruction, it now lacks the structure and the security it once had, then there is also the destruction of friendship circles partially due to technology madness which doesn't bring anymore people physically together. You add to this a school "teaching" more about your individual "freedom and rights" than culture and history, and you get a selfish and narcissistic society where anyone feels HIS desire has to be satisfied, be it violent or not. There are studies showing that the vast majority of crimes are perpetrated by people from fatherless families, yet no one is discussing that matter, maybe because a homogeneous and disciplined family is less likely to be controlled and will be autonomous in its choices, its inner education does not require the state to put its nose and tell them what matters and how to behave, rather unpleasant and anti-capitalistic.
When people want to kill, they will find a way, we saw that in Europe many times. Sure, if weapons are easy to find, that will not help preventing the violence, but it seems to me than rather than removing the tools - which incidentally are part of a constitution in this case-, we should have a closer look at the whole picture and try to find the causes of the violent frustration causing the need to hurt.
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This thread is pages long: 
