|
| Thread: Heroes 7 Positive Feedback and Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
posted April 11, 2016 06:32 PM |
|
|
Absolutely, and this is why 156780 people still play Heroes 2-5, along many other unique features. When a pill heals you, don't change its recipe with one you didn't successfully test before.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 06:39 PM |
|
|
|
I don't agree. That strategy is in essence exploit of AI weakness. Just because its ancient it doesn't mean its valid or needed.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 06:44 PM |
|
|
Nope, AI weakness and flaws occur only when bad programming, not a GAMING strategy which is 1500 years old and still kicks. Chess uses minor units as a shield to protect big ones. So yes, your super queen can't reach that black king because one pawn protecting. Want to reinvent the wheel, good luck. 
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 06:46 PM |
|
|
What do you mean? You use same 1 unit per stack strategy against human opponent?
And chess /= heroes so there is no reason to compare the two.
|
|
Aionb
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 06:47 PM |
|
|
Do you suck up retaliation with your main stacks against human opponents? 
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 06:53 PM |
|
|
dark-whisperer said:
And chess /= heroes so there is no reason to compare the two.
I think they are comparable through many aspects, the most important being turn based and different units values, which means that each action you do is definitive and strategy must be imagined several turns before, then there is no way to get out by desperate clicking.
So if you want to remove things as retals pattern, which is and always was at the core of the battle, you must come with something genius to replace what it successfully worked for so many years.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:15 PM |
|
|
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
|
|
dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:22 PM |
|
|
Sure you can compare it in broad sense but when you take just a bit closer look differences are too great.
Let me ask a question.
Do you think that you could win against full starting set human opponent if you have 8 peons, king and queen?
Retals pattern slow down game both before and during actual battle. IMO you greatly overvalue this kind of play.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:40 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 19:40, 11 Apr 2016.
|
Salamandre said:
If you want it different, then do it realistically, lower morale depending on % casualties based on your entire army (HP sum), no 1 stack. It makes no sense that your 94565 angels 1st stack loses morale because the single goblin in 7th stack died to a dragon fart.
dark-whisperer said:
But it makes sense when 94565 angels cant reach back row shooter because there are 3x1 goblin around them?
Salamandre said:
Absolutely, and this is why 156780 people still play Heroes 2-5, along many other unique features. When a pill heals you, don't change its recipe with one you didn't successfully test before.
All due respect Sal, but you lost this one.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:41 PM |
|
|
Sal, it's pretty simple - if you play the stack-splitting, retaliation-stealing, blocking game, and you don't want to run the risk of losing a turn with your awsome OP shooter dudes, you just have to make sure your Morale is high enough so that you can afford the losses. The complaints are actually pretty ridiculous.
And seriously, it's no gaming strategy. It's a cheap micro-management exploit of the system a child can auto-mode play with.
It was high time to raise the stakes a bit in that regard. If it was me - and I suggested it to no avail as so many other things - I'd have no flanking, but the ability to "overrun", when you have a certain superiority (with big units having an advantage).
Also - because of the rules bringing in additional units via Summoning, Gating or even battle-reanimating (look into H4) is very, very powerful. A counterbalancing thing like that is good, no matter what Green Dragons think about it.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:44 PM |
|
|
Stevie darling, this is why this game has a) melee, b) shooters c) casting magic creatures
If you disagree that 3 single stack could block a bigger stack to reach a hex, then you don't create a game where you need a mixture of 3 categories to succeed in a battle.
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:52 PM |
|
Edited by EnergyZ at 19:54, 11 Apr 2016.
|
Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
I like that you lose Morale when you lose a stack. 
I didn't try the game but I hardly see how losing a stack provoking lower morale is a good thing. Actually this is shockingly against all Heroes traditions, which are based on taking the retal with single stacks, in order to optimize casualties.
So you will lose 6 single stacks but keep retals at minimum, and this is and always was battle strategy, which is ruined now by that morale thing, if it is true what you say.
Er, none of you realized this is also in Heroes IV?
Then again, in Heroes IV, bad morale only means the unit will act as the last.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 07:56 PM |
|
|
|
True, but in H4 you have simultaneous retaliation plus a very difficult to impossible job to block with 4 different unit sizes and a BF consisting of thousands of squares.
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 08:04 PM |
|
|
The moral de-buff is pretty easy to implement actually. Count up the total XP value of the starting army and apply moral buffs/de-buffs when certain % of the army is lost. But you have to cap it at a reasonable level.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 08:15 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
Sal, it's pretty simple
I see no rapport between split, causalities, blocking and morale. This is you who came with, so is not so simple or obvious. Morale bonus in Heroes was a mixture between racial similarities, artefacts, terrains and skill bonuses.
JollyJoker said:
And seriously, it's no gaming strategy. It's a cheap micro-management exploit of the system a child can auto-mode play with.
Oh come on. You have actually to prove this one before being so straight on it. I am sure a couple of active players would be eager to see you survive more than 1 week on this child auto-mode. Seriously.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 09:29 PM |
|
|
I'm not going to discuss this in any way, because you actually don't address the point. The point is, it doesn't make things impossible or stops strategy or whatever, it just CHANGES something in the balance, in this case another factor you have to keep in mind when planning things.
Which means, it's not only a CHANGE, it's MORE strategy than before.
It's more difficult.
Also, the games do not have to repeat everything; they can add layers of strategy and tactics and they can subtract or change them.
You don't have to like changes, but you shouldn't be against them just because they ARE changes.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 10:25 PM |
|
|
Personally I don't see the 1 creature-stack tactics to be a core of a Heroes game (although they're definetly crutial in Heroes 1-3), the morale change in H7 sounds good. It could probably use some refinement and pushing it a bit further, but still, a step in a right direction.
____________
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 10:25 PM |
|
|
I am all for changes, when they make sense AND when they are requested by a majority of ACTIVE players and when they actually make the game BETTER, not necessary different. I can see a dozen of things which could be improved/fixed in H2-H3, a thousand for H4, but I see no where any request for penalize the split, the block, or heroes chain, or whatever. You propose another system for something which worked very well, so this is a waste of time, when we know thousand of things did never work and were never fixed.
Also to address the block point, the shooters in Heroes games can NOT shoot if enemy is close, so protecting them with living shield is not only smart but necessary. This is why tactics phase also was created.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 10:30 PM |
|
|
I like the idea of moral changing when stacks die. JJ summed up my thoughts pretty well. As for heroes chaining, I never found that logical. I liked the solution of Heroes 4. That is something I would like to see again,
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted April 11, 2016 10:50 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
I am all for changes, when they make sense AND when they are requested by a majority of ACTIVE players and when they actually make the game BETTER, not necessary different. I can see a dozen of things which could be improved/fixed in H2-H3, a thousand for H4, but I see no where any request for penalize the split, the block, or heroes chain, or whatever. You propose another system for something which worked very well, so this is a waste of time, when we know thousand of things did never work and were never fixed.
Also to address the block point, the shooters in Heroes games can NOT shoot if enemy is close, so protecting them with living shield is not only smart but necessary. This is why tactics phase also was created.
I have to agree with this. Splitting stacks to avoid casualties and block choke points is what adds a chess-like quality to the battle in Heroes games. Sure it only works against the AI but even in multiplayer games 95% of the time you spend fighting the AI while creeping and if you take away this possibility then the only way to minimize casualties is through imba hero skills like those in H4 or H6 and look how well that worked out.
And this is also why I have come to be in favor of hexes instead of squares as well. Squares make it much more harder to block a unit.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
|
|
